I've tried to figure this out, but it does my head in. I need someone to break it down for me, 'cos it always seems like my minds starts going in circles or I have the nagging feeling like I'm forgetting something important.

If I'm running VI Whisper and I run into another VI Whisper (or VI Echo and VI Echo), is it more advantageous to take initiative and move-shoot first or give initiative up? Assuming initiative's yours to decide.

My feeling is that taking initiative is more advantageous, but this particular match-up has only happened once for me so I don't have much experience with the issue.

​People's thoughts and any other tips for high PS Phantoms are very welcome.

when flying a phantom I always want to move and shoot first so I can cloak first

Against Turrets (mostly Han/Deci/Dash) you want to move first, shoot first so they're shooting at you cloaked and you cant dodge their arcs anyway.

Against anything else (including other Phantoms) you want to move last so you can arc dodge. Especially if both have rebel captive (nobody will be cloaking anyway). If you're good the other Phantom will rarely (if ever) get a shot at you so it doesnt matter you're uncloaked.

The only exception i can think of is something you feel comfortable jousting with (i.e. multiple 2dice guns). Overall i wouldnt recommend jousting with the Phantom in the current meta though, use it's mobility.

Having the initiative means you shoot first. This means you are in cloak when (if) the enemy shoots back at you.

Not having the initiative means you can react to your opponent's manouvres with your decloak and barrel roll - so avoiding arcs of fire is an easier job, but if you screw up, you'll be shot at decloaked.

It depends on how good you are at reading the other player's intentions, and your opponent.

1. If you think you're good enough that you can predict where your opponent's going to be without seeing it (either you're Just That **** Good ^TM - or more likely because the enemy is in unmanouvrable fighters), you might as well take initiative.
2. If you're facing an opponent who has turrets, you definitely want initiative because it's impossible to dodge arcs of fire no matter how good you are.
3. If you're facing a big swarm where blocking is likely to be an issue....then they're moving before you anyway, because you won't have a big swarm moving and shooting at high pilot skill.
4. If you're not sure about your ability to sabre-dance arcs of fire, and you're facing a comparable fighter list, letting the other player have initiative is better to make arc-dodging easier

It honestly depends on the rest of your opponents list and yours.

If its me I rather give them initiative when facing 1 other Phantom and support ships. Part of the beauty of the Phantom is to know exactly where your opponent is and being able to dance out of their arc. Who cares if they can shoot first if there isn't anything in front of them to shoot? Now if your opponent is running dual Phantoms or 1 or 2 other high PS ships, I want initiative. It would be harder to dodge 2 Phantoms arcs even if you know where they are. But don't rely on that 4 green dice in the Phantom. They will fail you. Your best bet is getting out of arc.

when flying a phantom I always want to move and shoot first so I can cloak first

That was my gut feeling too barrie, but you can't shoot something that's not there.

When it comes to mirror-matched Phantoms, I don't think it's automatically correct to take initiative (like it would be in almost all other circumstances). I think Celes and Grendel have the right of it. Unless you're an ace with the ship, I think giving up initiative is the safer choice.

That's what it seems like, anyway.

In a mirror phantom match, my answer would depend on what your phantom is equipped with and the rest of your fleet. My Whisper usually has a gunner and a fire control system, so I usually don't care if my opponent manages to recloak; odds are my attack will manage to hit anyway.

In that specific case, giving the initiative to my opponent might allow me to arc dodge, which is far better than relying on green dice.

If your phantom has no way to stack the dice in its favor, however, save its standard 4 dices and a focus, then having the initiative and trying to read your opponent better might play more in your favor.

Again, however, it depends on how you're equipped and what the rest of your squad can do.

You want to shoot first and cloak first.

You want to shoot first and cloak first.

This.

Up to you, honestly.

Both are useful. They just affect how YOU play the match. If you shoot first, you want to pick safe moves that keep you at long range. If you shoot second, you want to get in close and arc dodge.

It does depend on your support, though. For example, if you have both Soontir and Whisper, you have double the PS 9 arc coverage, so chances are you can more easily shoot at the uncloaked enemy Whisper even if he is able to arc dodge due to moving second.

I've just been in both situations before, and seen the downsides and upsides to both. Moving first has some risk, as there is a chance Enemy might give you NO arcs to shoot at and re cloak, which might even leave you open to incoming fire from the support ships. It's just hard to try and put flank a flanking Whisper when your Whisper doesn't know for sure that the enemy Whisper will even attempt to fight you back.

It's all based on the matchup. Again, remember that the init only matters at the same PS which is sometimes easy to forget (unless you are very paranoid about specific asteroid placements). So, lets say you are running Whisper with VI/ACD/whatever. So you are only concerned with other PS9s.

If its a turret (Obviously: Han or VI Dash), you want to take the init. That way you are cloaked when they shoot at you. However, that means if the big ship is good, it can arc dodge you, so you still have to be on your toes. See the 2014 World's Final match of how it can still be dangerous. Note that it is still possible to last a few rounds against say Han if you don't have the init. Just evade, pray to roll a natural evade (or 2), and hope you take a single hit each round while dealing out the hurt.

For a low maneuverability ship (say Wedge), you can go either way. Generally, I would prefer to lose the init, so that I could arc dodge Wedge for no shot than him throwing 3 red at my 3 green. But if you feel that he will box himself in (say with a Biggs list or something), then if you are more risky, give him the init and try to arc dodge where you think he will be (Intelligence Agent helps a lot with this).

Against other arc dodgers (Soontir or another Whisper), give them the init hands down. If you are moving first, most good players will be able to dodge your arc after you move, so not only do you not have a shot, you arn't cloaked, and are MUCH more predicable next round. If you have Rebel Captive against another Whisper, it can sometimes change the way you approach the decision, but again you need to have a full game plan as to why you take the init with rebel captive.

I would move second against almost any list when flying whisper. Even Han will arc-dodge you. Doesn't matter if you shoot first if you don't have a shot to trigger ACD.

Two agility and four hit points makes it risky to shoot second , true if you can't fire you can't cloak at all but if you've put yourself in that position it is kind of your own fault.

Against anything that's not a 360 1-3 turret, don't take initiative. Four defence dice isn't as good as not being shot at all.

Two agility and four hit points makes it risky to shoot second , true if you can't fire you can't cloak at all but if you've put yourself in that position it is kind of your own fault.

I have to completely disagree with this statement. If I move first with either echo or whisper against a ps9 ship that has boost and/or roll, it is very possible for them to get out of arc. As stated early, look at the recent worlds tournament. You move where you think the ship might be going and they pull out a move you would never expect, and then boost to get out of arc (easy to happen), how is that my fault?

In regards to the original post, against a 360 arc, it would depend on the rest of the support. My general feeling is to ALWAYS MOVE LAST. This helps you ensure you always have a shot to recloak. Do they get to fire at you uncloaked, absolutely. But I have flown the phantom too often and seen too many 4 blanks to rely on the green dice. I will move last, take the evade action, and continue on.

Texx also raised the other thing which matters - the Intelligence Agent crew card. These things go a long way to letting you be confident enough to move first, because there's unlikely to be multiple PS9 opponents to be concerned about.

For me, I always prefer to move and shoot first. Against a turret it's almost a no-brainer, but regardless I want the evade+four-focussed-agility turtle (this is for Whisper+VI+FCS+Gunner+ACD). My assumption is that no matter how good I am, sooner or later I'll get shot at and I want the maximum chance to survive that.

Fully agree Magnus! Texx point about intel agent is huge. I had a list with echo that I loved to fly and it had a shuttle and firespray, both carrying intel agent for that exact reason. Knowing where they are going makes things a lot easier. Even against a phantom, if you know the dial, you can at least make some predictions on where they may end up going and get in the best possible spot to have a shot, or avoid the arc.

Good job bring back up that point!