Folks,

So, I was recently reviewing the beta book and looking at the defined specializations, when I realized that I was seeing some things that I think think have not been discussed here before. I wanted to lay out some general ideas I had for the specializations and talent trees, and see what you folks think.

First, I don’t think that any talent tree for any F&D specialization should offer more than one FR+1 talent. So, Consular:Sage and Mystic:Seer would have to change.

Second, I think that all talent trees for all specializations should include a Dedication talent. Again, this hits Consular:Sage and Mystic:Seer. The obvious fix is to switch out one of the FR+1 talents on each of these trees for a Dedication talent instead.

Third, I don’t think that any combat-oriented specialization should offer a FR+1 talent. So, Consular:Niman Disciple would have to change.

Finally, for all non-combat specializations, their FR+1 talent should be relatively expensive and difficult to get to — you should have to spend at least 50+ XP to get there. Again, Mystic:Seer and Consular:Sage appear to be the only two that are affected.

Are there any other simple game balance issues that anyone has noticed with any of the careers and specializations?

[EDIT: Fix stupid typo ]

I don't agree with the first thought and second thought (which go hand-in-hand). Those specializations are just so heavily focused on mastering the force, they don't spend as much time honing their own mind or body, trading away a Dedication for the additional Force Rating, and that seems like a fair trade to me.

3- I sort of agree. The saber-style specializations start a trend of no force rating talent, but Niman doesn't fit. On the other hand, FR+1 is extremely deep in the tree, which means you have to be dedicated to the spec to get there. Niman certainly has plenty of reasons to make people nervous about its power level, what with turning the lightsaber into a willpower skill and severely reducing a jedi's M.A.D. (mutual attribute dependency) in addition to both a dedication and a force power improvement. Perhaps removing dedication would be a good fix?

4- Actually only Seer has less than 50 xp to one of its force ratings, it has 40 xp to one of them. I'm not convinced this should change, besides perhaps dropping the vertical connection above Seer's earliest force rating talent to bring it to 50 xp. But I really only see these as a problem if your players are munchkins who only want to take a spec to run to force rating more quickly, and changing the talent trees just to make playing the game in a negative way more difficult isn't good game design when it effects the players after more than just the tree's key talents just as much.

These items have been discussed on the Order 66 podcast with Sam Stewart if you want to give them a listen. I was aware of these thing since that podcast episode and agree with their reasoning.

I was afraid that Niman was going to be the goto saber spec, but of all the groups I've been involved with only one player has invested in it. there's a few choice talents in the spec (I love draw closer), but beyond that, it's pretty lackluster.

Will, with Niman Disciple, part of its focus is on using the Force, so it having a Force Rating talent (albeit one that is almost literally buried in the tail end of the tree) makes sense. It also doesn't have Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, which is something all the other 'saber specs offer, with Soresu Defender even having both of them.

If anything, Niman Disciple seems to be better suited as an "add on" spec for PCs that started out in one of the other LS Form specs, since it does give them an eventual Force Rating boost as well as 3 additional ranks of Parry and Reflect and two more ranks of Defensive Training.

Doc Xerox pretty much hit the mark in regards to Seer and Sage, as those two specs are meant to be the "Force wizard" type and thus enable a PC to be just that.

These items have been discussed on the Order 66 podcast with Sam Stewart if you want to give them a listen. I was aware of these thing since that podcast episode and agree with their reasoning.

Do you have specifics on which particular podcast episode(s) that was in? I’d like to hear their reasoning myself.

Thanks!

I pretty well have to disagree with the OP on all counts. Sage and Seer concentrate more on the force, giving up that attribute. It's a trade off. The extra force is really nice, but losing out on the attribute bump stings. In the later game your stats will lag behind.

Niman seems fine as is. It's an ok fighting style, but some of the more aggressive forms would probably wipe the floor with them. It makes up for it's combat prowess once again by allowing the user to supplement his raw ability with the lightsaber with some extra forcey goodness. Hence the Force rating bump.

there are several episodes with Jay Little and Sam Stewarts and Kat and other devs for the game which are all worth a listen. not to mention great advice all around for Edge and Age and F&D. But the episode where these were discussed is episode 36. The last episode has Jason Marker. Who has done most of the Ship design.

It is worth listening to all of them especially the ones with the Devs on them,

I like it as it is.

It allows for a variety of ability mixes in a single spec and across specs.

Want someone who focuses just on the force? Then Sage and Seer.

Want someone who can get away with FR 1 and focuses just on lightsaber combat? Then you've got a bunch of options.

Some specs are themselves more a mix and balanced.

Niman Disciple is already a balanced spec so it can go for another 'saber's spec or Sage/Seer to dig deeper into either ability set.

The spec balance also makes making a balanced character feasible.

A character from one of the other lightsaber styles could go into Sage/Seer to pick up more FR and more force talent abilities not tied to a saber to make a more balanced character.

I must admit, Brad, I also like the careers that tend towards 'mage' or 'warrior' type roles. Our Consular and Mystic play very differently from the Guardian and Warrior. The extra Force Dice are a huge benefit, but it feels balanced because you're missing out on the characteristics upgrade. The Sentinel and Seeker feel somewhere in the middle, leaning as much to stealth and subtler Force abilities.

I must admit, Brad, I also like the careers that tend towards 'mage' or 'warrior' type roles. Our Consular and Mystic play very differently from the Guardian and Warrior. The extra Force Dice are a huge benefit, but it feels balanced because you're missing out on the characteristics upgrade. The Sentinel and Seeker feel somewhere in the middle, leaning as much to stealth and subtler Force abilities.

Yeah, that's the key in my opinion. Because the Characteristic Upgrade is -at least- as useful as a Force point upgrade.

I am very impressed by the way they have it now. Balance shouldn't mean copy. I think having those kinds of options leads to hard choices and I like hard choices in my games.

I am very impressed by the way they have it now. Balance shouldn't mean copy. I think having those kinds of options leads to hard choices and I like hard choices in my games.

For me, that’s the crux of the problem. If you want a high FR, you absolutely want to take Seer and Sage, and then you’re done. If you add any other specializations, you’re just getting into Silly Territory, because with just FR3-4 you can reliably play Skittles with AT-ATs (or YT-1300s). And since you can spend multiple pips on the strength upgrades, if you want to get to Silhouette 8 ships, that’s just one more pip required.

Sure, you have to spend some XP on a few force power upgrades, but those are actually relatively cheap. As are the FR+1 talents.

Now, if people were limited to taking only the specializations that were within their Career and prohibited from taking any others, then you’d be much more limited on how high you can take your FR.

Or, if powering additional upgrades required additional pips as well as having spent the XP to buy the cheap upgrades, then you’d need a much higher FR to be able to reliably play Skittles with AT-ATs.

I say all this as a reformed Point Engineer. But the pull of the Dark Side is very strong, and with the Talent Trees for Seer and Sage set up the way they are now, I could very easily warp the game totally out of control — and entirely without meaning to do so.

I am very impressed by the way they have it now. Balance shouldn't mean copy. I think having those kinds of options leads to hard choices and I like hard choices in my games.

For me, that’s the crux of the problem. If you want a high FR, you absolutely want to take Seer and Sage, and then you’re done. If you add any other specializations, you’re just getting into Silly Territory, because with just FR3-4 you can reliably play Skittles with AT-ATs (or YT-1300s). And since you can spend multiple pips on the strength upgrades, if you want to get to Silhouette 8 ships, that’s just one more pip required.

Sure, you have to spend some XP on a few force power upgrades, but those are actually relatively cheap. As are the FR+1 talents.

Now, if people were limited to taking only the specializations that were within their Career and prohibited from taking any others, then you’d be much more limited on how high you can take your FR.

Or, if powering additional upgrades required additional pips as well as having spent the XP to buy the cheap upgrades, then you’d need a much higher FR to be able to reliably play Skittles with AT-ATs.

I say all this as a reformed Point Engineer. But the pull of the Dark Side is very strong, and with the Talent Trees for Seer and Sage set up the way they are now, I could very easily warp the game totally out of control — and entirely without meaning to do so.

Well lets think about that for a moment.

If you start with seer. You need 140xp in talents just to get yourself to force rating 3.

You need 85 xp in move.

You likely want to put XP into discipline...

So you have put 225 XP into being a one trick pony...Oh and if they want to remain light side they need to roll 3 lightside pips or spend a destiny and take conflict.

I am not seeing a problem.

If you start with seer. You need 140xp in talents just to get yourself to force rating 3.

Knight-level play.

You need 85 xp in move.

If you get 20-25 XP per session, then this is three or four sessions.

You likely want to put XP into discipline…

Fair enough. That’s another session or two.

So you have put 225 XP into being a one trick pony...Oh and if they want to remain light side they need to roll 3 lightside pips or spend a destiny and take conflict.

As I said, the dark side is strong. And with FR3, you wouldn’t have to do that often.

I am not seeing a problem.

I guess it depends on how fast you can accumulate XP.

Also keep in mind that level of XP only allows you to do this at medium range. I suspect a AT-AT is going to shoot you at extreme range.

What I see is a: "Your Table, Your Rules" kind of post. Sounds absolutely wonderful for Your Table.

However, if you are attempting to get the Game Developers over at FFG to change the game to meet your desires (which is what I think you would like since you posted in the Beta forums) as you think the game would be better for it; then I find your argument SEVERELY lacking. You merely state your opinions, but provide no support for your argument. Nothing from the movies, or the Expanded Universe as to why you think the game should be the way you want it. I fear, if you are desiring change on the part of FFG, you will need to provide some support for your desires (other than the mechanical twink aspect [which will be a valid concern for ANY system]).

I am not trying to be an egregious schmuck here, but I was confused as to what you wanted to happen. If you want your game to run more or less along all specializations being kinda equal when it comes to stat boost (Characteristics and Force Rating), then your changes will be great for you. I, personally, do not care for them, though that should not stop you from using them on your table.

Kevynn

I will admit I did see the problem with going Force point chasing but FR3 is around 130 points of talents using sage. Possible 1 or 2 sessions in. That however would require ALL starting xp, so no stats or actual powers. 4 and 5 will be getting close to 300pts before anything else.

Seems kinda troll-ish to me, OP's post. Essentially we have 2 specs that end with FR5 and FR4, trading in combat effectiveness for Force ability, also they are the F&D social and healer classes. The others end up with FR3 but are more effective fighters that are also F&D mechanics, pilots, and heavy types. These same careers benefit more from the personal enhancement powers since they don't require much die throwing i.e Enhance and Sense, but can branch out if needed, likewise Counselor and Mystic benefit more from powers that take more force to be effective such as Move, Heal, and Influence. Pretty well balanced overall and similar to other careers from other source books.

For me, that’s the crux of the problem. If you want a high FR, you absolutely want to take Seer and Sage, and then you’re done. If you add any other specializations, you’re just getting into Silly Territory, because with just FR3-4 you can reliably play Skittles with AT-ATs (or YT-1300s). And since you can spend multiple pips on the strength upgrades, if you want to get to Silhouette 8 ships, that’s just one more pip required.

I think the Skittles thing is more a problem with the Move power, which has the potential to be overpowered imho. I don't think it's a problem overall with how quickly a character can gain FR. So rather than mess with the specs, I'd just house rule the Move power if you don't like the potential for abuse.

Personally at my table nobody will be playing Skittles that way, once somebody wants their character to develop the Move power we'll discuss it. You could:

- reduce the number of Strength upgrades, requiring extra pips to get to the same level, i.e.: now if you get all the Strength upgrades it costs 1 pip for up to Sil4 and 2 pips for up to Sil8. You could replace a Strength upgrade with something else, leaving only 3, so 1 pip gets you to Sil3 and 2 pips gets you to 6.

- double the cost of a second Strength usage, so 1 pip gets you to Sil4 or 3 pips to Sil8

- some combo of the above two.

Personally I think I like 1 pip per Silhouette, which leaves room for some Control options.

Also keep in mind that level of XP only allows you to do this at medium range. I suspect a AT-AT is going to shoot you at extreme range.

The possibility of an AT-AT attacking at extreme range doesn't solve the basic problem that nobody in canon ever tosses heavy things around without total concentration and a lot of effort. Move was probably written as it was to accommodate some middle ground between canon and the crazy stuff in the EU, but it ends up straddling both ineffectually.

Seems kinda troll-ish to me, OP's post.

Ridiculous assertion. If that's trolling then everybody here is a troll

I am not trying to be an egregious schmuck here, but I was confused as to what you wanted to happen. If you want your game to run more or less along all specializations being kinda equal when it comes to stat boost (Characteristics and Force Rating), then your changes will be great for you. I, personally, do not care for them, though that should not stop you from using them on your table.

I’m not a GM, so I don’t own a table where the rules would have to follow whatever I think.

I’m just a guy who is 49 and I’ve been playing RPGs since 1981, and I’ve gone through my phases of power gaming. I see a very strong temptation here to get dragged back down that rat hole, and I figured I’d bring the subject up on this forum and see what others think.

To be honest, I hope I’m wrong. And I’m perfectly happy to be convinced that I’m wrong.

I’ve been told that the FFG developers have discussed their logic as part of a specific podcast, but I’m still trying to get the details on that podcast so that I can see what their reasoning is.

All that said, as much as I hope that I’m wrong, I have yet to hear anything on this forum that convinces me. And frankly, that makes me a little sad. I was hoping that this would be an easier target for you folks to knock down.

I have characters with force rating 3 and some move ability. i think it is going to be a problem until very high amounts of XP as I dont see people dump everything into a one trick pony very often. Sure you could put EVERYTHING into move. But then you wont be very useful doing anything else. And when you do get up to that power level...you will likely have other things that take priority most of the time.

Keep in mind, depending on how you read the Move rules, you would only be able to throw something starting at short range up to your maximum range , the Range upgrades allowing the you to throw it farther than short. The fine manipulation upgrade would be the only exception, allowing you to perform an action as if you were using your hands on it at this powers range . As stated above, you should find it very difficult to be able to get in range of a Walker to use Move on it. To fully utilize all upgrades you'd need 4 force pips, which at FR3 is more likely than FR2 but still rare. A GM might also alter the suggestion box on page 195 regarding resisting Force checks to include the silhouette in the difficulty of the check to either add or upgrade it. Both GMs and players need to be in agreement for power gaming to happen. Ask you GM about limitations up front and provide your concerns as well because the GM can just as easily send an overpowered inquisitor after you in turn.

To fully utilize all upgrades you'd need 4 force pips, which at FR3 is more likely than FR2 but still rare.

No, four (or more) force points is not rare, and is actually the expected result with FR3. Each force die has two pips on four of its twelve sides. This means that the odds of not rolling two pips on a given die is eight in twelve. Therefore the odds of not rolling two pips on at least one of the three dice is 8^3/12^3 or 512/1728 or a little over 29.6%. This means that the other 70+% of the time you will roll four, or more, force pips.

In other words my Consular Healer with FR3 and Healing Mastery should be able to use the light side Heal Mastery [4 force to bring someone who died in the last turn back to life] about 70% of the time.

I guess it depends on if you want to take conflict since 1 of those 4 pairs is dark, but yeah that would still be better than 50%, my mistake. Ok, so FR3 is the sweet spot of being an effective force user over half the time.