I know, I know. : )

I just thought I'd toss this out there though, get some feedback. What do you think if this were added to the X-Wing FAQ--after the wording was cleaned up, of course:

--If an ordnance requires you to discard a token to use, you may use that token during the attack.

--The defender rolls one fewer defense dice against the attack (to a minimum of 0).

This idea was inspired by all the excitement about the upcoming Autothrusters card, generally heralded to single-handedly bring Interceptors back into the competitive game. The wording of "defense dice" is deliberate, so that (for example) an obstructed attack against the VT-49 still gets some benefit. Would this be enough to make ordnance actually worth including?

1) OMG! Another thread?!?!?!?

2) I like the first part of the fix, but dislike the 2nd. I think it makes things too powerful. I think just letting someone use the TL or Focus is enough.

Yeah I think a few people have suggested that first part, myself included.

Yes! It would make it better indeed. But I would change it to say Target Lock Token. Ordnance with other tokens are really pretty good and get used alot now.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply the use-on-discard idea was mine; it wasn't. However, the overall conclusions I had seen in those discussions was that use-on-discard wasn't enough to make ordnance worth their cost. I'm thinking the additional defense dice penalty *might* be enough to tip them over the edge into useable.

And yeah, sorry for the new thread. Really. : ) Wasn't sure which thread to add this idea to, though...

Yes! It would make it better indeed. But I would change it to say Target Lock Token. Ordnance with other tokens are really pretty good and get used alot now.

Currently, there is no ordnance that requires you to spend anything other than Target Locks. Deadeye allows you to switch that to Focus, but that's it.

Correct. But i'll bet some may be coming soon.

I think either one could work, but not both together.

I would be more in favor of the second change. If you make the first change, homing missiles and prockets lose some of their specialness. Not like homing missiles are used right now, but if every missile got to keep their TL, then the only thing special to homing would be that they can't spend the evade token. Meanwhile, PT, APT, and Conc all allow you to not spend the TL, and then modify the dice further. Plus, APT w/ Deadeye becomes waaay too deadly.

Not like homing missiles are used right now.

I've mentioned this before but never got much of a response so I'll bring it up again.

Doesn't homing missiles prove that just keeping the TL isn't the answer? If you have a missile that already does that, then shouldn't it be used more then it is?

Unless 5 points and no extra effect is too high a price, but I still think that if that were true, then a Concussion Missile or Proton Torpedo that keeps the TL isn't going to be much more popular then it is now.

Not like homing missiles are used right now.

I've mentioned this before but never got much of a response so I'll bring it up again.

Doesn't homing missiles prove that just keeping the TL isn't the answer? If you have a missile that already does that, then shouldn't it be used more then it is?

Unless 5 points and no extra effect is too high a price, but I still think that if that were true, then a Concussion Missile or Proton Torpedo that keeps the TL isn't going to be much more popular then it is now.

I hadn't honestly thought about homing missiles until now, but I've given it a bit of thought, so:

1) I don't want to spend 5-7 points to make a 3 attack against an AP Tie Fighter

2) There are usually better things to shoot at a Large ship with than a homing missile.

3) Missile Carriers have been

a) A-Wings (Not played often)

b) Tie Advanced (laughably Not played often)

c) Firespray (used a lot in wave 2, and I'm not sure if people were putting missiles on them.

d) Tie Bomber (people are putting bombs on them, and using them for cheap tankiness)

e) Tie Defender (Not played often).

f) the Z-95 (Played all the time! But as cheap filler that's expected to die. So putting extra points on one seems like a bad idea)

4) It looks like Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are set to make a comeback. I _do_ want to use a homing missile against them.

So there's a few problems with the Homing missile that I'm not sure get worse by taking away part of it's specialness. Mostly it comes down to the fact that ships which can equip the missile are not being played often, and when they are being played, they're not used in roles that leave me wanting to put more points into them. And half the reason you take a homing missile is to hurt ships with evade- which aren't being played much (*coughs* I can't account for Fat Han in this analysis).

But thinking about it: I wouldn't be surprised if Raider!Vader started taking a missile. Maybe not a 5 point missile, but probably _a_ missile_.

I do like the idea of being able to use your target lock when shooting ordinance, but I still would like some method of reloading as well.

Two things that would work nicely together:

1 - Munitions Guidance Package. 2 points. A secondary weapon that requires you to spend a token to make an attack may benefit from the effect of that token.

Priced at 2 points, it keeps Homing Missiles' built-in advantage.

2 - Ordnance Rules Supplement: Secondary weapons in the Missile and Torpedo slots deal 2 damage cards for every hit result. They deal two face-up cards for every critical hit result.

Here's an idea I think might be more applicable. Round one, you fire you missile/ordinance card and flip it face down to mark it as used. Round two, rather than shooting you may skip your attack phase to turn a face down ordinance card face up.

Thus munition failsafe would still work because the card would never turn face down. The ordinance would basically be an alternative shot that you could refresh via sacrificing your attack action, and you wouldn't need to revise every card.

Just my 2 cents.

There is no single fix that is going to make every misle and torpedo competetive without making some broken

The first suggestion regarding a faq to clarify that ordinance can usr the effect of thier action token during that specific combat will help every single ordinance that has that action economy issue, heck they could make it all secondaries as well and not overpower anything since thr cannon with this issue also has the same problem. Even with this change most ordinance will still not be competitive however they are better which is really what ordinance needs right now. I also hope that at some point in the future we see the bwing and bomber tweaked to be better ordinance delivery platforms that they are suppose to be. Regarding the reload action mechanic I believe thst is a good ability to place on the two bombers thst replaced thr second misssle or torpedo slot to make those ships beyter at delivering a single type of ordinance

Slightly off topic but you would think something called homing missiles would be able to hit a target locked ship out of ur firing arc. However we are niether nor there and that ship has sailed.

Slightly off topic but you would think something called homing missiles would be able to hit a target locked ship out of ur firing arc. However we are niether nor there and that ship has sailed.

Maybe that could be the fix an upgrade card that let's you fire ordnance out side you firing arc must have target lock

Homing Missile might be worth its cost if it negated Focus rather than Evade.

Or if it missed/evaded allowed you to spend your Target Lock to re-equip. Basically built-in Failsafe if you don't spend your TL to reroll during the attack.

Plus, APT w/ Deadeye becomes waaay too deadly.

I think we need an Ordnance Fix sub-fourm...

OK, my two cents. The problem is related to a number of factors, all of which would have to be addressed to make ordnance effective but not overpowered.

1) Actions:

- Acquiring a TL can be difficult for low PS ships.

- Without a Focus or a way to modify dice the damage output is too low for the cost of the upgrade.

These two can be dealt with by using a higher PS ship, with some way to get two or more actions, Like PTL or including Jonus, but this increases the cost further.

2) Cost:

- Outfitting a ship to make effective use of ordnance balloons the ship's cost.

- Once the ordnance has been used and discarded, those upgrades and possibly even the ship itself, becomes far less useful for the squad.

- To keep that ship and it's upgrades useful, you're inclined to add more Ordnance, increasing the cost further.

3) Discard:

- With the above in mind, you could simply choose a cannon ship with an HLC that does basically the same job, but it's more reliable and you don't have to discard it after one use.

A Fix:

Well, I don't have one, but I think the starting point needs to be based around making Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missile roughly the equivalent of the HLC, since they have the same range and attack dice.

A mod that bypasses the Discard and Target Lock rules but costs enough to prohibit fielding more than four, range 2-3 attack 4, ordnance carriers (which seems to be FFG's limit, looking at the B-wing, Scyk, and Phantom). This is problematic because of the ps 12 Zs, which would require a 5 point mod at least. This would leave us with 9-10 point Protons and Concussions. Would you use them?

There are only two simple FAQ-able options to resolve the too expensive/too difficult to use missiles and torpedoes.

1) let them ignore shields and deal damage directly to the hull.

2) let them ignore firing arcs.

If you wanted to allow missiles and torps to have completely different feels, let one have one rule and the other have the other rule. All of a sudden you might see expert handling up there with PTL and VI in terms of most overused EPT's

Can't you just change it so that all hits with a missile/torpedo get turned into crits automatically if certain conditions are met? Let's stay proton torpedoes fired at range 1 turn all hits to crits if they are not cancelled. Missiles that strike a target from behind turn all hits to crits is another example.

This causes every hit to have some potentially harmful side effect, and its very thematic.