The long-term consequences of constantly tapping into the dark side of the Force are left up to the roleplaying of the player and the GM. However, both should keep in mind that the dark side is born of fear, anger, and hatred, and these emotions should be present in the Player Character.

Having been unadulterated by forum perusal, as a GM, I took the above quote very differently than most people on these forums seem to have. I've explained it a couple of times in an older thread, but thought it bore repeating, not only for ideas, but for discussion.

I had a player who made a Thief/Exile and felt he could get away with dark side use of the Force regularly as long as he kept the Destiny Point spending in check, since they quickly learned that I love using Destiny Points, so they always have some Light to "waste".

So, my solution, based on the above quote, was to describe things differently with the very Destiny Point(s) he'd flip towards me. Other players would see things one way, but his paranoid, angry and hate-filled perceptions saw something other. The culmination of this caused him to forego the use of Force in general (at least, in dire circumstances, he'd still use it to move things when there was no time strain) and he ended up becoming a Slicer in lieu of a force-filled thief.

The Culmination scene (as accurately as my memory can recall it):

He is being hounded by a member of a bandit group, someone whose actions and description makes you just "love to hate" him, on one of the planets in the outer rim. The member has blamed the group, and this character in particular, for some events that have transpired, and threatened to call the Imperials (a bluff of course) to report one of their "Jedi" types.

The player decides to toss this guy as far as he can with use of "Move", not only for the annoyance he's been, but because it is part of the end-goal of cleaning up this area of banditry. He rolls his 2 die and gets 3 dark side force (and uses all 3, giving me 3 Destiny points). Tosses him over a building into the distance to his ultimate death.

I reply that (1 destiny point spent to alter his perception) he then sees a small figure dart from the shadows of that building, with a deadly weapon drawn, pointing it at the character, while laughing maniacally. Declaration of action...

To the rest of the group, who wanted to jump in immediately, I tell them, after the one player has declared his action, that they see a female child, the daughter of one of the villagers who has come to this group for help, come running around from the side of the building, giggling at something in her head. She has a pink plastic toy gun and points it at the group playfully.

I spent about 4 Destiny points to interfere with the other players interfering with the Dark Side. The child is slammed into/through the building by the 1st player, breaking half the bones in her young body. Although she does recover, she's permanently scarred, both mentally and physically.

To me, this is what is meant by the quote from the book. He realized that he was willingly giving himself over to the dark side and made the decision to not risk it again. It became more than just a mechanic of the game.

Admittedly, with the coming Morality feature of Force and Destiny, there is already a strong deterrent coming for use of Dark Side Force points, but once you're sporting 4+ Force, you don't really have a reason to use dark side anymore anyhows. However, my system, which I continue to use, albeit not as often, since my players are far more leery about drawing from the dark side, I think best quantifies use of the dark side when drawing on Force. Not something you could really make a "mechanic" for, as it's all in the storytelling, but something that has proven to be highly effective for me.

Some notes and questions.

• Uhm, so did he use it on a bandit or a little girl? It's not clear who got wounded.
• This may be your own house rule, but you are supposed to flip one Destiny point and convert all the dark pips to light paying one strain for each (and one conlict with F&D Morality). You chose to do it differently then?
• Both EotE and AoR are both very Force light games. Force use is relegated to a secondary status. Your interpretation seems kind of heavy for something like that. Were your players happy and enjoying the game? If they were then you were doing it right.
• Not to discount your point of view, but personally it is no wonder people were hesitant or altogether unwilling to use the Force. Seems a little harsh in a game meant for fun. I wouldn't care for it myself, but, as I said, as long as people enjoyed no problem.
• The cost is phenomenal. That alone would deter using it. One for one Dark pip/Destiny point. Too high to consider it as you would be using an extraordinary amount of the Destiny point pool. That is not fair to the others at all.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Gotta run to work.

Hi Gryph! (You left a really awesome mess in the other post, at least say good bye and thanks for the help next time XD)

What I know about rules rold us that you spend 1 DP and pay the amount of Strain equivalent to the DS pips you wish to use.

No need to spend more Destiny in a roll.

I use the "perception corruption" mechanics also in my games. If someone is tainted by the dark side I use to add "wrong perceptions" that put him on an alert state, sometimes even agressive. Also I have to say that my players (not everyone XD) use to play well and don't need that I "force them" to act weird due to dark side.

I like to mantain the "dice rolls" and "paraonia results" correlative as much as I can, so, Threats are turned in small failure perceptions, and Desperations in really dark perceptions. Not only for perceptions, I use it for everything, but Perception is the clearest sample. Before F&D Beta I added "ghost" results to rolls like Threats or even more.

Now with the new Morality rules the alignement part is pretty cool

I'm aware that this is the Beta yet, but, the general essence looks cool. I'm still adding and using the "perception and interpretation" rules, but with a clearer base about when use them (when Morality goes down or commits major Conflicts).

Take care!

Some notes and questions.

• Uhm, so did he use it on a bandit or a little girl? It's not clear who got wounded.
• This may be your own house rule, but you are supposed to flip one Destiny point and convert all the dark pips to light paying one strain for each (and one conlict with F&D Morality). You chose to do it differently then?
• Both EotE and AoR are both very Force light games. Force use is relegated to a secondary status. Your interpretation seems kind of heavy for something like that. Were your players happy and enjoying the game? If they were then you were doing it right.
• Not to discount your point of view, but personally it is no wonder people were hesitant or altogether unwilling to use the Force. Seems a little harsh in a game meant for fun. I wouldn't care for it myself, but, as I said, as long as people enjoyed no problem.
• The cost is phenomenal. That alone would deter using it. One for one Dark pip/Destiny point. Too high to consider it as you would be using an extraordinary amount of the Destiny point pool. That is not fair to the others at all.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Gotta run to work.

• He used dark side force on the bandit, then "defended" himself against the girl as well (though I honestly don't remember if that roll used dark force or not).
• I do seem to have been using the rules wrong in how much Destiny is flipped. I've been doing 1 per dark side Force point. :/ I'll not do that in the upcoming campaign.
• Yes, players enjoyed the game, but this is perhaps because I was Destiny happy, adjusting the story and rolls meaning they always had plenty of light to flip. I'm sure they'll enjoy it even more now though. (Though I'll still use the storytelling aspect if they get dark-side happy).

Hi Gryph! (You left a really awesome mess in the other post, at least say good bye and thanks for the help next time XD)

What I know about rules rold us that you spend 1 DP and pay the amount of Strain equivalent to the DS pips you wish to use.

No need to spend more Destiny in a roll.

I use the "perception corruption" mechanics also in my games. If someone is tainted by the dark side I use to add "wrong perceptions" that put him on an alert state, sometimes even agressive. Also I have to say that my players (not everyone XD) use to play well and don't need that I "force them" to act weird due to dark side.

I like to mantain the "dice rolls" and "paraonia results" correlative as much as I can, so, Threats are turned in small failure perceptions, and Desperations in really dark perceptions. Not only for perceptions, I use it for everything, but Perception is the clearest sample. Before F&D Beta I added "ghost" results to rolls like Threats or even more.

Now with the new Morality rules the alignement part is pretty cool

I'm aware that this is the Beta yet, but, the general essence looks cool. I'm still adding and using the "perception and interpretation" rules, but with a clearer base about when use them (when Morality goes down or commits major Conflicts).

Take care!

Woke up this morning realizing I didn't care their comments anymore. It was all circular-reasoning and everyone just kept repeating themselves, a pointless endeavor, so I decided to ignore that thread and so I have.

Glad to hear I'm not the only perception-altering GM around.

Admittedly, with the coming Morality feature of Force and Destiny, there is already a strong deterrent coming for use of Dark Side Force points, but once you're sporting 4+ Force, you don't really have a reason to use dark side anymore anyhows.

Knowing how you're running your games, stats, and XP expenditures, I suggest you don't plan to use Morality. It's based on this system in it's finished form. I think you'll find that compared to your interpretation of the darkside and your use of the force mechanics, Morality won't really work for you. It'll hit players hard in areas you may not be hitting then quite so hard now, it'll let them off the hook in areas you seem to want to punish them, it'll be made obsolete too quickly by your rejiggering of the characteristic and XP purchasing, and if they do go dark, it won't cause the level of damage to the character you seem to expect going dark to cause.

I could be wrong, but that's just what I see. If you want the full details on how the system works and why I don't think it seems like your bag, see the full details. I think you'll be happier if you either keep doing what you're doing, or come up with something totally different.

Full details below:

Edited: Changed whole post.

I had a long post about the Move power, then changed it to one about the Morality mechanic, Both didn't fit.

I think honestly there is something that makes me confused about how you handled the situation and my view on it is not going to add to the situation.

Admittedly, with the coming Morality feature of Force and Destiny, there is already a strong deterrent coming for use of Dark Side Force points, but once you're sporting 4+ Force, you don't really have a reason to use dark side anymore anyhows.

Knowing how you're running your games, stats, and XP expenditures, I suggest you don't plan to use Morality. It's based on this system in it's finished form. I think you'll find that compared to your interpretation of the darkside and your use of the force mechanics, Morality won't really work for you. It'll hit players hard in areas you may not be hitting then quite so hard now, it'll let them off the hook in areas you seem to want to punish them, it'll be made obsolete too quickly by your rejiggering of the characteristic and XP purchasing, and if they do go dark, it won't cause the level of damage to the character you seem to expect going dark to cause.

I intend to try and play the game correctly (which I consider the Dark Side perception method to be). This includes Morality. But, with the boost they were allowed to Force, I don't think Morality will be a huge issue (or any dark side rules really). The people who seem to want to depend on Force powers have a Force 3 (2 players), so dark side usage should be a lot less than the previous incarnation.

Re: the bandit and the little girl.

So he used his Force move on the bandit with dark pips, then you described that someone else attacked him or was going to and he responded appropriately, but which turned out to be a little girl? Sounds like the stories I used to hear about DMs and their Paladin/alignment traps. Doesn't at all sound like fun to me but to each their own.

In your Edge games did punish your non-Force users for murder and any other sundry crimes too?

Not sure if I get the "essence of the idea" but, seems that he uses the "karma rules" with the Force and a "butterfly effect".

Moving/using the Dark Side of the Force, causes that something else, by the collateral way, goes wrong.

Did I get it?

Re: the bandit and the little girl.

So he used his Force move on the bandit with dark pips, then you described that someone else attacked him or was going to and he responded appropriately, but which turned out to be a little girl? Sounds like the stories I used to hear about DMs and their Paladin/alignment traps. Doesn't at all sound like fun to me but to each their own.

In your Edge games did punish your non-Force users for murder and any other sundry crimes too?

He threw the bandit with dark side force points.

A girl comes around the corner with a toy gun.

The dark side though has overwhelmed him enough that what he sees is a small figure (accurate) dart from the shadows (accurate) with a deadly weapon (slightly inaccurate) in its hand. That's what dark side does, it fills you with fear, anger and hatred. I pick an emotion (fear in this case) and paint the scene with that emotion, since that's the eyes he's looking through, as per the quoted rule in the book.

Morality will not matter in your game with the additional Force dice. They will, more often than not, have enough dice that they should be able to consistently use light pips without delving into dark pips. You'll be dealing more with their actions. Not what was intended in the game but whatever. Your interpretation seems rather severe to me.

Agreed, seems severe. You could at least give the PC a chance to see through the dark side illusion with a Discipline check. That would be in keeping with the lore...

The dark side though has overwhelmed him enough that what he sees is a small figure (accurate) dart from the shadows (accurate) with a deadly weapon (slightly inaccurate) in its hand. That's what dark side does, it fills you with fear, anger and hatred. I pick an emotion (fear in this case) and paint the scene with that emotion, since that's the eyes he's looking through, as per the quoted rule in the book.

That's ok, I'm not trying to sell this to anyone as the "right" way. I've clearly stated that it's my interpretation. But wouldn't you agree that it's the way the dark side is sold to us in the novels and movies? That drawing on it is something much more detrimental than the more popular use of the mechanics? Didn't it bother you at all, when you started playing this version of the game, that it actually paid (both short term and long run) to rely on the dark side?

WOW very dark indeed-- I like it. Makes the dark side...well...dark. The other PCs didn't react to the dude just force pushing the guy off s balcony to his death? That's pretty evil. What I'd do is maybe encourage this obvious dark side behavior. They should fear and hate him-- he's evil...threw a dude to his demise instead of subduing him...than the little girl...**** that's boarder line Dark Heresy. But I like the idea of spending the destiny point to give the dark side player something that effects him so much and others perceive something normal.

I'm surprised the group isn't like...holy crap lets ditch this crazy guy!!

Agreed, seems severe. You could at least give the PC a chance to see through the dark side illusion with a Discipline check. That would be in keeping with the lore...

I liked it-- and I like your idea. I'd say IF YOU SEE the player look at the dark side points and physically looks as if he's deciding what to do than give him the option to see through...the light and dark side struggle but if he just goes in let the dark side corruption show....pallid flesh...dark veins, eyes becoming red etc...

Well, I had a long list of why that's a bad idea, but seeing how well it went over last time, I'll just go with the TL;DNR version: that was way too harsh, not at all in line with the spirit of Star Wars and I'm glad you're not my GM.

Have fun dude, I'm out.

WOW very dark indeed-- I like it. Makes the dark side...well...dark. The other PCs didn't react to the dude just force pushing the guy off s balcony to his death? That's pretty evil. What I'd do is maybe encourage this obvious dark side behavior. They should fear and hate him-- he's evil...threw a dude to his demise instead of subduing him...than the little girl...**** that's boarder line Dark Heresy. But I like the idea of spending the destiny point to give the dark side player something that effects him so much and others perceive something normal.

I'm surprised the group isn't like...holy crap lets ditch this crazy guy!!

To be fair, their reaction is what you have expected. He was the least liked character for quite a while after that (in particular because I made the family she belonged to into a very integral part of the story). Long story short, not only has he avoided using his power against anyone in a conflict manner, but he ended up becoming the girl's guardian when her family did die, and he protects her now like a faithful dog. However, none of that was really part of the topic, so I just didn't mention it all.

As for discipline, when he insisted, I gave him a roll, and used Destiny points to make it harder. I also used Destiny points to stop the Courtier from dissuading him (threw in setback dice equal to the dark points used to show the influence the dark side was having on him). If I'd let it just skip, there wouldn't have been that instilled hesitancy to use dark side points, and I felt the need to instill that.

Ah ok -- well it's good your PCs really felt the evil of the actions. I'd give him tempting dark side scenes. Maybe whispers of how easy it would be to just snap that guards neck instead of stunning him or sneaking by him. He touched and delved into the dark side. Maybe haunt him a bit-- the guy he flung? He's back (maybe as an illusion or a ghost). Make his anchor to the light side the girl and her memories. I like when players actions write the script for you and PCs conflict letting you sit back letting them run their own scenes.

I wouldn't dissuade him from using points he's rightfully earned and spent go to waste either. Totally not using the force kind of sucks. Maybe an exile or a lore master could stumble on him and aid him to balance. Or maybe he could find a holocron or OLD Sith holocron in which teachings are neutral. Gray Jedi or Gray Sith. It would sorta suck not being able to use points I've spent in a talent tree :/

I have to kinda agree with Clash, it would suck to spend a bunch of XP in a class/tree, then have the GM smack me when I try and use them. Kinda like hitting the gunbunny every time the kill someone they could have stunned, or the thief every time they steal. On that note, are you enforcing the Karmic Morality equally across the party, or is it just the Force User who gets the story warped if he does something bad?

I'd also keep the "hey, look! evil's easier" segments of the game down to a reasonable level - say when his obligation comes up or similar. Otherwise I feel like you'd risk the rest of the players feeling like they're just along for the ride. Or that they'd rather just shoot him and get on with the mission, which is what would have happened to the two Dark-Side characters in my Saga game if players hadn't been good OOC people. (The Darkies were eventually written out anyway, the players coming back with more party-oriented characters.)

It sounds like you have a good system for the story you're trying to tell. It's not the kind of story I'd run, but it could be helpful to others (like clash it sounds) that like that kind of arc.

The people who seem to want to depend on Force powers have a Force 3 (2 players), so dark side usage should be a lot less than the previous incarnation.

Exactly. If they've got FR3 so they can ignore using dark pips then it's easier for them to just use the force for every little thing, and you essentially skipping one of the mechanical points of balance set to keep force from being used continuously.

This is one of the issues with trying to monkey with this system, despite all the "if the GM is cool with it"s through the book the rules are actually well constructed and the mechanics well integrated with each other. Make one change that seems minor to you, and you're very likely to end up seeing a cascade that causes issues throughout the system.

That's why I really think you're better off just doing the kind of thing you've been doing. While I completely agree with Merc and that you're likely to just start doing the "Pally hunt" of D&D, at least there's some method to the madness. Trying to apply the Morality mechanic as written is just going to cause weirdness since it's designed to counter the exact kind of activities you seem to want to occur.

This thread is the precise reason I threw out the morality rules.

I like the way F&D doesn't penalise Dark siders beyond a minor Destiny and strain penalty, and doesn't try to force characters into being NPCs or taking actions they don't want to do.

But we wanted a 'Zen' treatment of the Force anyway, a Yin and Yang approach, and I really, really didn't want to micromanage my player's actions and assign a number to everything they did. I wanted to keep the game as 'unfiddly' as possible, allow for a wide variety of player choices and not to argue over every little deed... while keeping the consequences for extremes of behaviour.

So far, the 'you're either in LS or DS mode' thing has worked for us. And yeah, 'Light Side' is 'a thing' for us. Essentially a rather meaningless thing, but it still exists.

Re: the bandit and the little girl.

So he used his Force move on the bandit with dark pips, then you described that someone else attacked him or was going to and he responded appropriately, but which turned out to be a little girl? Sounds like the stories I used to hear about DMs and their Paladin/alignment traps. Doesn't at all sound like fun to me but to each their own.

In your Edge games did punish your non-Force users for murder and any other sundry crimes too?

He threw the bandit with dark side force points.

A girl comes around the corner with a toy gun.

The dark side though has overwhelmed him enough that what he sees is a small figure (accurate) dart from the shadows (accurate) with a deadly weapon (slightly inaccurate) in its hand. That's what dark side does, it fills you with fear, anger and hatred. I pick an emotion (fear in this case) and paint the scene with that emotion, since that's the eyes he's looking through, as per the quoted rule in the book.

So the Game Master describes the scene to the player. Basically, a person comes around the corner with a weapon drawn on you, what do you do? The player defends himself, but then the GM changes the scene to NO, it's a little girl!!!! Muhaha!!! The Dark Side wins again!!!

Wow, slow clap....pure genius....Good job for being able to pull a fast one on that stoopid player!

I am really shocked you still have people willing to play this game with you. In the grand theme of RPGs, it is not very hard for a GM to "outwit" the players as it is thier environment and universe, but I don't agree that is the job of a GM to work against players. I fail to see how defending yourself from danger, even if "only" perceived is evil, the intent was not. But hey, if that is your and your player thing then so be it.

as per the quoted rule in the book

Funny how that works, I see a guideline to help people play out a scene together giving roleplaying advice to player and GM. You see a way to spring the guild of a mentally scarred, broken 4 year old unto a player in a dubious manner.

Dante, I think this is a series: 'The Ten Worst FFG House Rules' or something...

Now I actually feel nostalgic for the misguided but honest lunacy of ErikB.