Cannons are a very popular part of the game that get hosed by Munitions failure. Ever had your Outrider get hit by a Munitions failure? Might as well be 3 direct hits.

What does happen in that situation? Is the ship unable to make any attack for the rest of the game? I'm surprised they haven't FAQed that to say that you can discard the title.

The Outrider title only stops primary attacks while you have a cannon equipped. Cannon gets discarded, your primary works again.

As for the problem of adding things to break new upgrades, such as incapacitating crew, diluting the danger of critical hits - it doesn't need to at all. Just add an appropriate number of general effect cards and keep the ratio the same.

I think they can do better than this, even. The current ratio of meaningful vs. useless critical hits is one of the big problems with the current deck. Ideally (IMHO), any critical hit should have some effect on any ship they land on. This isn't all that hard to do. One easy way would be to have combo effects. "Discard your Elite Pilot Talent upgrades to turn this card face down. -4 Pilot Skill." If you've got an EPT, you lose it. If not, -4 PS. "Treat all white maneuvers as if they were red. Action: Discard one crew to turn this card face down."

Please don't get wrapped around the specific examples, they're off the cuff... but I think they'd be on the right track. Target a specific upgrade, but have a fallback effect if that upgrade isn't present. Have an ongoing negative which can be removed by discarding a particular upgrade type. Combo them with stats that every ship has. Suddenly, every crit is a big deal to every ship.

The fallback idea is great, but I would also like to see more crits that can be repaired. It adds more flavour to the functioning of large ships, where they resist long enough to repair some of the damage. For instance Damage Engine and Stunned Pilot are some of the crits that do monumental damage to some ships and yet can never be repaired.

when it's an addition to the existing stack or a complete replacement for it, then you add either the complexity of having to check if people got the correct mix or you have to make it a mandatory sale for tournaments.

Both have pro and cons depending on your viewpoint

another option would be to add ship (or ship type) specific damage cards to new ships.

these could be tailored to fit better.

The rules could be changed so, that if you get a crit you have a choice to choose between the standard deck or your ship specific ones. That way you would keep the sale style of not required expansions and distribute these cards via new expansions with overlap similar to the upgrades. You could diversify the two choices by choosing a different balance between light (or even blank) and high damage consequences.

That's why I was proposing the idea of building a deck for your opponent. It would be easy for adoption, with the downside of having to check damage decks before a tournament. But you wouldn't be forced to use it, and the player customizing a damage deck wouldn't necessarily have an advantage.

edit: Actually let's be honest here. Who checks the damage decks now? They could be stacked right now with crits that don't particularly harm a list, yet I almost never hear about people checking their opponents' decks, to the point where it is considered rude to do so.

when it's an addition to the existing stack or a complete replacement for it, then you add either the complexity of having to check if people got the correct mix or you have to make it a mandatory sale for tournaments.

Both have pro and cons depending on your viewpoint

Stacking your damage deck is a thing. Since most players have 2 or more damage decks from their core sets, i have heard of a local player that liked to "swap" cards from one damage deck to another, meaning his Fat Han never suffered the worse of the critical effects that he didn't want to see. I can't remember what he swapped out, but the TO ended up having to check and DQ him anyway.

Checking the damage deck doesn't have to be done by the TO. Just have the players display it or give their opponents the opportunity to look through it prior to the game fixes that problem. Any funny business will quickly get weeded out, like it did with the local guy who decided his damage deck shouldn't be as lethal as others'.

Cannons are a very popular part of the game that get hosed by Munitions failure. Ever had your Outrider get hit by a Munitions failure? Might as well be 3 direct hits.

What does happen in that situation? Is the ship unable to make any attack for the rest of the game? I'm surprised they haven't FAQed that to say that you can discard the title.

The Outrider title only stops primary attacks while you have a cannon equipped. Cannon gets discarded, your primary works again.

As for the problem of adding things to break new upgrades, such as incapacitating crew, diluting the danger of critical hits - it doesn't need to at all. Just add an appropriate number of general effect cards and keep the ratio the same.

I think they can do better than this, even. The current ratio of meaningful vs. useless critical hits is one of the big problems with the current deck. Ideally (IMHO), any critical hit should have some effect on any ship they land on. This isn't all that hard to do. One easy way would be to have combo effects. "Discard your Elite Pilot Talent upgrades to turn this card face down. -4 Pilot Skill." If you've got an EPT, you lose it. If not, -4 PS. "Treat all white maneuvers as if they were red. Action: Discard one crew to turn this card face down."

Please don't get wrapped around the specific examples, they're off the cuff... but I think they'd be on the right track. Target a specific upgrade, but have a fallback effect if that upgrade isn't present. Have an ongoing negative which can be removed by discarding a particular upgrade type. Combo them with stats that every ship has. Suddenly, every crit is a big deal to every ship.

The fallback idea is great, but I would also like to see more crits that can be repaired. It adds more flavour to the functioning of large ships, where they resist long enough to repair some of the damage. For instance Damage Engine and Stunned Pilot are some of the crits that do monumental damage to some ships and yet can never be repaired.

I don't want to see ANY critical effects that can be repaired. Especially no new ones, and while i agree with you that it would make the game more fluffy and cinematic, fluffy and cinematic don't make good rules sets. If anything, i want more devastating critical effects.

I would love to see more critical effects that had a more significant impact on the game and how it plays. in terms of time, i dont think repairs could be enacted in the time of a normal game, so fixing a ship (like repairing a Landraider or Dreadnaught in 40k, or repairing a Warjack in Warmachine) is really and out of place mechanic in the game to begin with.

I would love to see critical effects like blown engine where the ship can only manuver at 1 and 2. Or an effect where a ship is -1 offense permanently, and the same with agility. or where moving at speed 3 means it takes damage (no dice roll, get rid of all of those effects. if the card states "roll a dice", it should just take damage, no chance of saving, or if you do have a chance of saving, make it only on a focus result or a critical result, severely limiting the chances).

Things like stunned pilot should read "if you collide, eat 3 damage" or something to that effect. I think the critical effect damage deck is way to soft, and would make fighters, the point of the game, much better and balance out the big ship crisis we seem to be in (if in fact, we are in a crisis in the game at all. One could argue this, but i suppose there is a reason BBB was, or Fat Han or Super Dash are meta-benders right now, the way this game is set up, having a fat ass on your ships is more important than being nimble with agility dice until you get to a certain threshold, like with phantom.)

Again, just like Buhallin said, dont get wrapped up on the examples, those are just off of my head thinking, but i think a damage deck that was far more "dangerous" would make playing low agility ships more of a risk, and i think the game needs that right now, if it needs anything.

OOOOHHHHH

Almost forgot...

Make any damage done by a critical effect applicable to the hull only. No rebuilding shields with either R2 and then laughing away the damage as you make another green maneuver or roll for R2 the crew.

[...]

Actually I agree a bit with the idea of having more powerful critcals, but still would prefer if there were ways to cancel some if not all of their effects. The idea being that if you cripple a ship, you have to continue firing at it to take it out before it "gets back into the action". If you let it be, it should be your fault.

TL;DR?

Cannons are a very popular part of the game that get hosed by Munitions failure. Ever had your Outrider get hit by a Munitions failure? Might as well be 3 direct hits.

What does happen in that situation? Is the ship unable to make any attack for the rest of the game? I'm surprised they haven't FAQed that to say that you can discard the title.

The Outrider title only stops primary attacks while you have a cannon equipped. Cannon gets discarded, your primary works again.

Now a HWK with a turret getting zapped by Munitions Failure, that's a killer. You're down to 1 attack die and forced to use your arc with that dial.

I sincerely hope that they will not dilute the damage deck. More slots affected means slimmer chances to get hurt. Fried astromech is every imperial players dream.

I sincerely hope that they will not dilute the damage deck. More slots affected means slimmer chances to get hurt. Fried astromech is every imperial players dream.

Unless of course the effects they put in were dual purpose effects, like stated earlier or just more deadly in general. in which event, drawing one of the older cards that don't do much will be a blessing. I think though, most people are wanting to make new cards to put in it or replace it all together. i wouldn't mess with the ratios too much.

I think the topic from the Op, is interested in isn't so much the new deck as much as they are the dramatic umph that we all love from Star Wars. I mean lets face it we all grew up with various versions of the Death star exploding and either energy waves of mass destruction, or explosion particles from a gravity explosion raining down on the camera with Han Solo shouting "GREAT SHOT KID THAT'S ONE IN A MILLION!"

The damage deck admittedly does not always scream like Porkins did before his X-wing erupted into flames. Let alone the A-wing that trashed the super Star Destroyer's bridge.

There are some triumphant moments where you feel like the bridge crew of home one as they witness the executor slamming into the Death Stars surface.

But there are those that don't believe the damage deck has that UMPH and luster that the movies have spoiled us on.

Even in the X-wing/Tie/XVT video games even in the console games the dramatic BOOM! was usually after one or two hits.

That said. In this system I think what was trying to be done here is that the developers were trying to assume for every core instance what could happen. I believe that there was a standard concept load out at one point that people were expected to carry and the result of the game was a defined meta X card xx Upgrades where some upgrades were left to gather dust. So these damage cards that would cause havoc for things like secondary weapons might seem like a small fire cracker compared to Biggs screaming "Wait Wait!" heart beats before his X-wing is turned into a sparkling brilliance where a single voice cried out in terror and was silenced.

The something terrible that was supposed to happen to your ship.. was like someone throwing a snap cap at your ship.

Based on this ideal It's not hard to see people cry out for more.

To demand what we have been spoiled upon for nearly 40 years!

We, my fellow gamers, are spoiled upon the dramatic influence of various of 38 or so years of various Sci-fi thrills and chills.

Remember that there is no way to satisfy everyone however if you wish to see that change, there is a possible solution that is very much acceptable.

Stop playing in Tourney and start playing with a house rule, where a customized system is more effective.

Go through each card and ask yourself How can this affect every single ship you have, will it give a desired dramatic effect?

Will it have enough consequence to be benign, subtle, or truly a critical?

Or is it a damage that was set up for perhaps just one style of load out that maybe you don't play with? In example Munitions failure when you don't use them.

Food for thought, gas on the fire.. or perhaps common sense?

Ok, so my two cents worth. This is a topic we have debated here before. Some cards in the damage deck have a possibility of not effecting ships they are placed on, which feels wrong to me. How many times have you draw "Munitions Failure" and did a fist pump (because no one ever uses munitions!). Every time your ship take a crit it should be bad for you. It should not be a roulette game where sometimes you win, and sometimes you don't.

Also to the same point, there are upgrades that have been added to the game that are not addressed in the damage deck, like Crew or System upgrades. I would really like to see the damage deck updated to help add some balance to it and make crits feel like crits.

How about some suggestions for new cards which would affect each and every ship that suffers them then?

For example:

Flight Controls Locked - the next time you assign a movement dial to this ship, you must assign the same maneuver it performed in the previous round, then flip this card facedown

Electrical Feedback - immediately assign two ion tokens to this ship, then flip this card facedown

Reactor Breach - at the start of every combat phase, roll one damage dice, on a critical hit result, remove this ship from play

FTS Gecko

I like these save for the Reactor Breach. That is a bit too heavy handed for me. Plus, losing a 60 point Han to his first crit would really make a lot of people unhappy.

However I do like the other two cards. I could see bumping up the damage deck to 40 cards, adding 6 new cards and an addition Direct Hit to keep the ratio about the same.

I like Buhallin's concept.

I agree that a crit should always be a bad thing, and not just another damage card depending on what you fly. You can quite easily hit a Academy Pilot with 2 crits that have zero actual impact on the ship, other than being 2 out of 3 damage needed to kill it.

First of all though, this wouldn't be extra cards, but a complete replacement to the existing deck.

Second it would be quite possible to design cards with dual effects or even triple effects that make it so no matter what you're flying it hurts.

Lastly I see no issue myself with asking people who play in Tournaments to buy a new damage deck for $5. For those who don't play in them, they have the option of buying one or not.

All fair points, but on the other side of the coin I wish there were crits that took out... sensor slots as well.

You want a crit that removes an upgrade type that does not exist?

I agree that serious tournament players will have no issue whatsoever buying a new deck should it come to that. Part of the price of being up to date. Sort of like buying new ships you don't fly because you need the upgrade cards.

...

First of all though, this wouldn't be extra cards, but a complete replacement to the existing deck.

Second it would be quite possible to design cards with dual effects or even triple effects that make it so no matter what you're flying it hurts.

Lastly I see no issue myself with asking people who play in Tournaments to buy a new damage deck for $5. For those who don't play in them, they have the option of buying one or not.

replacement is of course the easiest solution which also allows the most variation in what you want to achieve with the changes. A few bucks for a one-time addition probably isn't too much for most players, even if they never go to a tournament (just looking in comparison to the summary cost of the rest).

I like the idea with multiple effects - even if it is just one specific and a fallback which is supported by every ship.

FTS Gecko

I like these save for the Reactor Breach. That is a bit too heavy handed for me. Plus, losing a 60 point Han to his first crit would really make a lot of people unhappy.

...

actually I'm missing one hit crits, even if they are rare to balance them. Even one of those in your damage deck makes you sweat just a bit more just reaching for the deck. Of course depending on the occurences it has some influence on the balance of expensive ships, but that holds true for any currently miss combi replaced by an effect.

Geckos condition makes it a bit more interesting since it drags out the decision.

actually I'm missing one hit crits, even if they are rare to balance them.

Rarity of extreme effect does not balance it - it just makes it random.

There's a lot of potential damage cards they could add now.

Crit Ideas:

Remove a Crew Member

Remove an Astromech

Remove a Systems Upgrade

Remove a Modification Upgrade

Remove a Bomb Weapon

Remove an Illicit Upgrade

Reduce range by 1 of weapons fired outside primary arc

Get a stress after taking an action (so can't use PTL or EI)

FTS Gecko

I like these save for the Reactor Breach. That is a bit too heavy handed for me. Plus, losing a 60 point Han to his first crit would really make a lot of people unhappy.

...

actually I'm missing one hit crits, even if they are rare to balance them. Even one of those in your damage deck makes you sweat just a bit more just reaching for the deck. Of course depending on the occurences it has some influence on the balance of expensive ships, but that holds true for any currently miss combi replaced by an effect.

Geckos condition makes it a bit more interesting since it drags out the decision.

Yeah -you'd have to get incredibly unlucky for the Reactor Breach to cause an instant KO.

First, you need to take a critical hit anyway (so P-Bombs aside, your shields would already have gone).

Secondly,you'd need to actually draw the Reactor Breach card face up.

Thirdly, you'd need to roll another Critical Hit on an attack dice in a subsequent round.

The odds of all that coming off look pretty small (3,720-1?) to me, but it would add some tension and drama. In fact, if it DID come off, I'm willing to bet it would be pretty hilarious.

Finally, if a 30+ point Soontir Fell can be OHK'd, I don't see a huge issue with a Falcon getting KO'd over the course of 2+ turns by a Critical Hit effect.

FTS Gecko

I like these save for the Reactor Breach. That is a bit too heavy handed for me. Plus, losing a 60 point Han to his first crit would really make a lot of people unhappy.

...

actually I'm missing one hit crits, even if they are rare to balance them. Even one of those in your damage deck makes you sweat just a bit more just reaching for the deck. Of course depending on the occurences it has some influence on the balance of expensive ships, but that holds true for any currently miss combi replaced by an effect.

Geckos condition makes it a bit more interesting since it drags out the decision.

Yeah -you'd have to get incredibly unlucky for the Reactor Breach to cause an instant KO.

First, you need to take a critical hit anyway (so P-Bombs aside, your shields would already have gone).

Secondly,you'd need to actually draw the Reactor Breach card face up.

Thirdly, you'd need to roll another Critical Hit on an attack dice in a subsequent round.

The odds of all that coming off look pretty small (3,720-1?) to me, but it would add some tension and drama. In fact, if it DID come off, I'm willing to bet it would be pretty hilarious.

Finally, if a 30+ point Soontir Fell can be OHK'd, I don't see a huge issue with a Falcon getting KO'd over the course of 2+ turns by a Critical Hit effect.

man, i bet leebo would see play on EVERYTHING

There's a lot of potential damage cards they could add now.

Crit Ideas:

Remove a Crew Member

Remove an Astromech

Remove a Systems Upgrade

Remove a Modification Upgrade

Remove a Bomb Weapon

Remove an Illicit Upgrade

Reduce range by 1 of weapons fired outside primary arc

Get a stress after taking an action (so can't use PTL or EI)

Most of these seem like they are less useful than they appear. Astromechs would only affect Rebels, while Illicit Upgrades would only affect S&V ships. How many ships actually carry bombs? How would you actually justify reducing the range of firing out of arc weapons? The last one actually helps at least one named pilot.

actually I'm missing one hit crits, even if they are rare to balance them.

Rarity of extreme effect does not balance it - it just makes it random.

just like any other critical effect is only balanced by its rarity - sure, only statistically as a single effect it's still an extreme effect.

But that doesn't distinguishes it that much from a double crit in relation to some pilot crit, which might effect but might also hinder you not that much.

just like any other critical effect is only balanced by its rarity - sure, only statistically as a single effect it's still an extreme effect.

But that doesn't distinguishes it that much from a double crit in relation to some pilot crit, which might effect but might also hinder you not that much.

Rarity does need to be balanced when considering effect, but there are limits. If there were one crit in the box that said "Roll 3 attack dice. If all three show {Crit}, you immediately lose the game" it would be exceedingly rare. It would also be stupidly random, with that randomness completely overriding the player's skill and involvement.

Critical effects should exist within a relatively tight band of effect, including probability of occurrence. Certainly, any given effect will have the potential for a given ship to be more affected than others, but that shouldn't be too extreme.

The game should, at its core, apply variance while leaving player skill as a deciding factor. Super-rare, super-extreme crits fail at this. You can argue whether they fit the term "balanced", but they certainly make for a bad game.

When it comes to "new" damage decks FFG has already released some although they are for specific epic ships.

If FFG were to release an alternative damage deck it probably should have come out with Most Wanted. Any alternative damage deck should be a complete deck and NOT have cards that are interchangeable with the original although the same cards could be used in both; to put this another way both decks would have Direct Hit cards in them but the new cards will have a different back and face so you can not mix old and new.

What would be in this alternative damage deck? I guess that is what this entire thread is about ultimately using one of the other shouldn't be an advantage/disadvantage but that will probably be impossible to do.

IF a new DD was put out I'd kind of like to see some of the card pairs be mirror pairs instead of two identical copies. I'm thinking about a card I'll call "thruster malfunction" for now that makes all the turns/banks one direction a step more difficult with the mirror card affecting the other side.

Part of me thinks some of you would love to see a "OH ****!" card with text that simply reads "Ship is destroyed." It wouldn't be a big step up from a Direct Hit when landing on many ships but imagine landing it on a Falcon or Decimator as the first card the large ship takes; I wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry.