I will also say this... if we are playing a casual game, I'm fine with proxied cards, or cross faction dials, which .. in the beginning.. many S&V lists will be... possibly..

But don'tcome to a tournament and expect the same. Its a different animal ... regulated for fairness to all involved.. if I had to buy 2 MW boxes to play my dual mando list, myou bet I wanna see that someone else did the same.. not just painted over a dial back to 'make it work' we alre all held to the same standard.. making it fair to all..

We don't get to pick and choose which ones to adopt (in a tournament environment). A lot of these rules, while unpopular, are to protect the more trusting folks from the few riff raft that would try to take advantage of them for prize money. Is it a shame this has to be this way? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? No.

Of course we get to pick and choose. We are the people playing.

A lot of the rules in this game serve a very important purpose. They keep the playing field even between players and promote an enjoyable experience. Do you think that single faction dial rule does any of those things?

Dude, all games have rules... we play the game and follow them, we don't pick and choose which rules to play with..

Players can and do. Ask a 40k player how many of their games used the rules for mysterious terrain or mysterious objectives (especially at tournaments).

So you think that the game can be played with the single faction dial rules, but you want people to have to buy-in in order for them to have the same access as you? Why? Lets say that they didn't spend the money - would you know if they didn't tell you? It is the same game. You are playing the same player in the same test of skill, which is what really matters for a tournament. I admit that that is only my image of a tournament, so yours might be different. It seem like it is still 'who can play the best' but with the minor addition to make it 'who can buy it and and play the best.'

Would you feel the same way if your opponent borrowed ships in order to complete their list? You still spent the money and they did not.

We don't get to pick and choose which ones to adopt (in a tournament environment). A lot of these rules, while unpopular, are to protect the more trusting folks from the few riff raft that would try to take advantage of them for prize money. Is it a shame this has to be this way? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? No.

Of course we get to pick and choose. We are the people playing.

Okay. So if "we," the people playing (and paying) the game get to choose, why don't you accept that the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread, and on these forums, seem to have "picked and chosen" to accept this rule?

Seriously, it seems like there are, like, four or five people (tops!) that keep complaining about it, while everyone else either doesn't care, faintly doesn't like it but accepts it, or just wholly accepts it.

You can't take a majority rules mindset, without respecting that the majority seems to have already spoken.

What to expect from someone with no respect, and imo very little dignity

Nothing screams dignity quite like sniping insults at someone trying to have a conversation.

I respect that it is the majority opinion. I will follow it in every tournament that I attend without complaint and even in casual games (as I plan on having all of the dials I will need and them some). What I don't respect is people saying that we have to play that way and people who assume that it is a good rule and then argue from there. I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule. If the majority opinion is, "Meh, it is a rule," then I will abide. But, I don't have to like it and I will advocate for it to be changed.

So if "we," the people playing (and paying) the game get to choose

Thing is, he's wrong. We don't get to choose what rules to follow and what ones to not follow. Our only option is who or where we play.

Again two possible outcomes here. A game with no higher authority and one with one.

In the case of one without such a thing, the rules that are in play are determined by the two people playing, with both having equal authority over which rules are enforced and which aren't. They each have the ultimate authority of picking up their stuff and walking away which effectively ends the game.

So if I sit down at a table with Krynn007 on the other side, and I insist that we play by the standard rules, where he insists that we play by the competitive ones, If we can't come to a mutual agreement, the game doesn't happen. So neither one of us gets to "play by the rules we choose" we get to play by the rules we agree upon.

In the case of a game with a higher authority, such as a TO, Judge, or League Organizer, then we again don't actually get to play with the rules we choose to. We get to play by the rules that person tells us we will play by, with our only option being not to take part in that event.

If a TO says "Tie Phantoms aren't allowed in this event" no one can play Phantoms. If you will not abide by those rules, then your only option is to not take part. You can't just sit down and pull out a phantom anyway.

I imagine that a number of TO's will not care one way or the other about correct faction dials, but based on the comments here, I'd say the greater number will. As such you will have to either avoid any event that has such a requirement or simply play a list that is legal. Those are as a simple matter of fact your only two options. Because again, you don't actually get to decide what rules you play by.

Also and perhaps more importantly... The higher up the chain you go, the more strictly the faction dial will be enforced. There is for example zero chance of getting away with it or painting your dials if you were playing at Worlds.

Nothing screams dignity quite like sniping insults at someone trying to have a conversation.

I respect that it is the majority opinion. I will follow it in every tournament that I attend without complaint and even in casual games (as I plan on having all of the dials I will need and them some). What I don't respect is people saying that we have to play that way and people who assume that it is a good rule and then argue from there. I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule. If the majority opinion is, "Meh, it is a rule," then I will abide. But, I don't have to like it and I will advocate for it to be changed.

Just calling it how it looks.

I don't consider it a conversation.

You just want to go total opposite from the majority

Nothing screams dignity quite like sniping insults at someone trying to have a conversation.

I respect that it is the majority opinion. I will follow it in every tournament that I attend without complaint and even in casual games (as I plan on having all of the dials I will need and them some). What I don't respect is people saying that we have to play that way and people who assume that it is a good rule and then argue from there. I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule. If the majority opinion is, "Meh, it is a rule," then I will abide. But, I don't have to like it and I will advocate for it to be changed.

Honest to God I can't stand some people

I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule.

By which you mean you haven't seen someone present a reason you agree with.

"Slavery used to be a rule. People weighed it and decided that they didn't like it, so now it is gone." . . . . Are you for real ? . . . Are you seriously comparing a GAME to slavery? Its a game , games are for fun . Slavery ? Come on.

I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule.

By which you mean you haven't seen someone present a reason you agree with.

Obviously. I don't think I remember them all and I don't have time to review the thread right now, but I will give it a shot:

1) Because it is a rule.

Every teenager has heard that and is smart enough at even that age to know that this is the most likely disguise for either 'I don't know' or 'there is no reason.' I don't give it a lot of credence because people who play games regularly revise the rules to their own liking and even occasionally do it on a very large scale. 40k is the example that I always go back to for this because of largely adopted tournament FAQs that even directly contradict the FAQs published by the game designers.

2) Aesthetics.

Pointless. The rules give you permission stick boogers to your dials if you choose to do so in order to keep track of them. You can even paint half of your Imperial dials yellow to exactly match those of the player across from you who is using a set of mixed faction dials.

3) Confusion.

My least favorite. People play mirror matches at every tournament and the rules allow those susceptible to confusion to mark their dials to completely avoid this supposed issue.

4) Profit for FFG.

This is the best argument. But since when do people, as customers, have to bow to the profit motives of companies when there is a simple alternative? No one would only drink half of a can of soda because Pepsi printed the cans with a rule saying that drinking the whole thing was forbidden.

5) Slippery slope. AKA, "If we break that rule, what is to stop people from committing murder in the streets."

There is a reason that intelligent people condemn this type of argument, so, like I said, I don't really see the point of getting into it here.

6) Fairness.

The color of the dial has no impact on gameplay or the player experience. FFG even allows people to customize their dials. What a dial need to acheive its purpose has been discussed. The concept that the faction showing on the face of the dial might seem reasonable at first, but the fact that it is on the face, not the back of the dial, means that the dial is removed from the table as soon as the maneuver is executed. What possible benefit could seeing the faction provide in the brief amount of time it takes a player to move a ship and then push the dial to the side? This argument is actually a good one because it shows how hard people have to think to come up with a reason to follow the rule. But, it just falls flat.

You don't seem like an unreasonable person. Why do you think that the single faction dial rule should be followed. Maybe you can give me something that I think is good enough and I can just be content. Either that, or you can tell me that my opinions on the above justifications are unreasonable and explain why.

I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule.

By which you mean you haven't seen someone present a reason you agree with.

Obviously. I don't think I remember them all and I don't have time to review the thread right now, but I will give it a shot:

1) Because it is a rule.

Every teenager has heard that and is smart enough at even that age to know that this is the most likely disguise for either 'I don't know' or 'there is no reason.' I don't give it a lot of credence because people who play games regularly revise the rules to their own liking and even occasionally do it on a very large scale. 40k is the example that I always go back to for this because of largely adopted tournament FAQs that even directly contradict the FAQs published by the game designers.

2) Aesthetics.

Pointless. The rules give you permission stick boogers to your dials if you choose to do so in order to keep track of them. You can even paint half of your Imperial dials yellow to exactly match those of the player across from you who is using a set of mixed faction dials.

3) Confusion.

My least favorite. People play mirror matches at every tournament and the rules allow those susceptible to confusion to mark their dials to completely avoid this supposed issue.

4) Profit for FFG.

This is the best argument. But since when do people, as customers, have to bow to the profit motives of companies when there is a simple alternative? No one would only drink half of a can of soda because Pepsi printed the cans with a rule saying that drinking the whole thing was forbidden.

5) Slippery slope. AKA, "If we break that rule, what is to stop people from committing murder in the streets."

There is a reason that intelligent people condemn this type of argument, so, like I said, I don't really see the point of getting into it here.

6) Fairness.

The color of the dial has no impact on gameplay or the player experience. FFG even allows people to customize their dials. What a dial need to acheive its purpose has been discussed. The concept that the faction showing on the face of the dial might seem reasonable at first, but the fact that it is on the face, not the back of the dial, means that the dial is removed from the table as soon as the maneuver is executed. What possible benefit could seeing the faction provide in the brief amount of time it takes a player to move a ship and then push the dial to the side? This argument is actually a good one because it shows how hard people have to think to come up with a reason to follow the rule. But, it just falls flat.

7) Future Proofing.

Ships in different factions are different ships. Nothing says that they need to have the same stats, or slots, or dials as their counterparts in the original faction. By banning cross-faction dial proxies, FFG has the freedom to release a cross-faction ship that does not have an identical dial without needing to maintain a list of which dials are legal to proxy cross-faction and which dials aren't.

A couple of people that don't play in tournaments arguing over a clear and understood tournament rule... Doesn't really matter if someone hasn't given a good reason for why the rules exists, if you try to use your Imp dials for your S&V ships in a tournament, you'll probably be told no, same as if you tried to use proxy cards or models. Otherwise I'd buy a single TIE Fighter expansion and field 6 of them.

If you paint over your imperial dials to conceal the faction, the TO will ask you to prove that all your dials are scum, and when you can't, you'll probably be told to leave for trying to deceive the TO and the other players with such an obvious trick.

While I would have no problem with proxied scum dials in a casual game, I would absolutely call the TO over in a tournament if my opponent had mismatched dials or painted dials, because it wouldn't be fair if my opponent was allowed to use proxies but I'm not. I have all the cards and bases I need to field a 6 TIE swarm, but I just don't have the models, so that means I can't put 6 TIE bases on the table in a tournament.

1) Because it is a rule.

Every teenager has heard that and is smart enough at even that age to know that this is the most likely disguise for either 'I don't know' or 'there is no reason.' I don't give it a lot of credence because people who play games regularly revise the rules to their own liking and even occasionally do it on a very large scale. 40k is the example that I always go back to for this because of largely adopted tournament FAQs that even directly contradict the FAQs published by the game designers.

I don't play 40K but it's my understanding that the vast majority of tournaments have no connection to GamesWorkshop. Are the contradictory unofficial FAQs used and accepted at official GW tournaments?

If you want to take part in official contests sanctioned by those companies you usually need to follow their rules, even if the rule is only there for the sake of the company's profit. If you enter a recipe contest sponsored by Campbell's Soup, you should expect that at least one of your ingredients carry the Campbell soup brand.

I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule.

By which you mean you haven't seen someone present a reason you agree with.

Obviously. I don't think I remember them all and I don't have time to review the thread right now, but I will give it a shot:

1) Because it is a rule.

Every teenager has heard that and is smart enough at even that age to know that this is the most likely disguise for either 'I don't know' or 'there is no reason.' I don't give it a lot of credence because people who play games regularly revise the rules to their own liking and even occasionally do it on a very large scale. 40k is the example that I always go back to for this because of largely adopted tournament FAQs that even directly contradict the FAQs published by the game designers.

2) Aesthetics.

Pointless. The rules give you permission stick boogers to your dials if you choose to do so in order to keep track of them. You can even paint half of your Imperial dials yellow to exactly match those of the player across from you who is using a set of mixed faction dials.

3) Confusion.

My least favorite. People play mirror matches at every tournament and the rules allow those susceptible to confusion to mark their dials to completely avoid this supposed issue.

4) Profit for FFG.

This is the best argument. But since when do people, as customers, have to bow to the profit motives of companies when there is a simple alternative? No one would only drink half of a can of soda because Pepsi printed the cans with a rule saying that drinking the whole thing was forbidden.

5) Slippery slope. AKA, "If we break that rule, what is to stop people from committing murder in the streets."

There is a reason that intelligent people condemn this type of argument, so, like I said, I don't really see the point of getting into it here.

6) Fairness.

The color of the dial has no impact on gameplay or the player experience. FFG even allows people to customize their dials. What a dial need to acheive its purpose has been discussed. The concept that the faction showing on the face of the dial might seem reasonable at first, but the fact that it is on the face, not the back of the dial, means that the dial is removed from the table as soon as the maneuver is executed. What possible benefit could seeing the faction provide in the brief amount of time it takes a player to move a ship and then push the dial to the side? This argument is actually a good one because it shows how hard people have to think to come up with a reason to follow the rule. But, it just falls flat.

Not exactly an admirable trait to be thinking like a teenager. There are a lot of psychopaths out there that have yet to be presented with a good argument for why murdering people is a bad thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal everywhere and there are arbitrary consequences for murdering people. Just because you refuse to accept people's explanations for the rule doesn't change the fact that violating that rule in a tournament setting carries consequences.

The unfair bit is that you are proxying for components that you don't have, while the rest of us have to be restricted to the components we do have. Again, why do you get to use proxys for your S&V dials that you don't have, but I can't use my TIE Advanced model as a proxy for a second TIE Bomber that I don't have? To let people use Imp dials as S&V dials, FFG would have to let everyone proxy whatever they wanted so long as it was functional within the game (which means proxying in any model for another model), which would destroy the game's financial viability.

"Slavery used to be a rule. People weighed it and decided that they didn't like it, so now it is gone." . . . . Are you for real ? . . . Are you seriously comparing a GAME to slavery? Its a game , games are for fun . Slavery ? Come on.

First they came for the modded B wings, and I enforced the rules, for I did not put my B wing on a magnet..

Then they came for the colored dials, and I enforced the rules, for I did not write on my dial.

And then they enslaved me, and there was no one left to enforce the rules.

"Slavery used to be a rule. People weighed it and decided that they didn't like it, so now it is gone." . . . . Are you for real ? . . . Are you seriously comparing a GAME to slavery? Its a game , games are for fun . Slavery ? Come on.

First they came for the modded B wings, and I enforced the rules, for I did not put my B wing on a magnet..

Side note: you're perfectly within your rights to put the B-wing on a magnet. From the Tournament Rules:

Ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or replaced as desired so long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience.

Slavery seems like a ridiculous and obviously evil concept to us now that we can look at it with hindsight, but to the people of that era that suffered and profited from it, it was a reality that they had to live with, created and enforced by the people in power at the time, whether they agreed with it or not. That reality could not be changed just by ignoring it, or claiming that you would not be subject to it. Doing that would either get you whipped, imprisoned, or hanged for treason.

Similarly, choosing to simply ignore the reality of the rules at an X-Wing tournament will get you a warning and then a DQ. Luckily, unlike the people who lived during slavery, even though you don't get to ignore the consequences of reality in a tournament, you do get to choose if you want to participate in that reality.

7) Future Proofing.

Ships in different factions are different ships. Nothing says that they need to have the same stats, or slots, or dials as their counterparts in the original faction. By banning cross-faction dial proxies, FFG has the freedom to release a cross-faction ship that does not have an identical dial without needing to maintain a list of which dials are legal to proxy cross-faction and which dials aren't.

Maybe. And that is a decent answer except for the facts that: 1) It hasn't happened yet and there is no indication that it will, only a chance (and there is a chance that almost anything could happen); and 2) That issue could easily be addressed as it arises even if mixed faction dials were in use (which FFG would have to do anyway FFG provides permission for people to alter their dials and does not limit that permission by saying that the original color has to be preserved).

Thinking like a teenager, in that instance, is really just questioning the reasoning and not being satisfied unless the reason behind the rule is adequate. This kind of analysis is used regularly in the Supreme Court of the United States and is not considered childish or immature by anyone. With regard to the psychopath comment, I guess we will just have to single out the psychopaths and not let them make decisions regarding X-Wing rules. Seeing as they are psychopaths, it shouldn't be too difficult.

With regard to the slipper slope argument, I really don't want to bother, but I will indulge it. Your reasoning assumes that using different dials and using different ships are equivalents. This is not true. I would guess that many people who play this game would not if the models were not of the theme and quality that FFG chose. Can you say the same about maneuver dials?

With regard to fairness, you would have the ability to use mixed dials just like your opponent, so what is not fair? If you are claiming that FFG changing the rules is not fair, then you have to have some right/expectation (see post 129, I think), which you don't. FFG has changed rules in the past using FAQs and will continue to do so in the future.

It seems simple enough to me, Rapture. If you think the TO at any tournaments you go to will be cool with mixing dials, mix them. If the TO's cool with it, who cares what anyone on this forum says, you can play.

Simple fix... Sell single dials for the cross faction ships for like...1.99? 2.99? usd. end of story

so the dials are exactly the same except they have different faction symbols on the front? And the ships are exactly the same except they are painted differently? And somehow facing a fleet that has the right ship, the right base, and a dial that says the name of that ship and has the correct menuvers on it, but a different faction symbol, is going to somehow cause someone to not be able to accurately play their fleet and make the game unfair to them because that misfactioned dial is giving their opponent some kind of advantage? I fail to see how a symbol on a dial is worth this much uproar. Would someone really call the TO over to disqualify their opponent simply because of a symbol on a dial that in every other aspect is correct?

Simple fix... Sell single dials for the cross faction ships for like...1.99? 2.99? usd. end of story

I'm guessing this will be a highly requested item when S&V hits.

so the dials are exactly the same except they have different faction symbols on the front? And the ships are exactly the same except they are painted differently? And somehow facing a fleet that has the right ship, the right base, and a dial that says the name of that ship and has the correct menuvers on it, but a different faction symbol, is going to somehow cause someone to not be able to accurately play their fleet and make the game unfair to them because that misfactioned dial is giving their opponent some kind of advantage? I fail to see how a symbol on a dial is worth this much uproar. Would someone really call the TO over to disqualify their opponent simply because of a symbol on a dial that in every other aspect is correct?

Models are not

7) Future Proofing.

Ships in different factions are different ships. Nothing says that they need to have the same stats, or slots, or dials as their counterparts in the original faction. By banning cross-faction dial proxies, FFG has the freedom to release a cross-faction ship that does not have an identical dial without needing to maintain a list of which dials are legal to proxy cross-faction and which dials aren't.

Maybe. And that is a decent answer except for the facts that: 1) It hasn't happened yet and there is no indication that it will, only a chance (and there is a chance that almost anything could happen); and 2) That issue could easily be addressed as it arises even if mixed faction dials were in use (which FFG would have to do anyway FFG provides permission for people to alter their dials and does not limit that permission by saying that the original color has to be preserved).

Not exactly an admirable trait to be thinking like a teenager. There are a lot of psychopaths out there that have yet to be presented with a good argument for why murdering people is a bad thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal everywhere and there are arbitrary consequences for murdering people. Just because you refuse to accept people's explanations for the rule doesn't change the fact that violating that rule in a tournament setting carries consequences.

The unfair bit is that you are proxying for components that you don't have, while the rest of us have to be restricted to the components we do have. Again, why do you get to use proxys for your S&V dials that you don't have, but I can't use my TIE Advanced model as a proxy for a second TIE Bomber that I don't have? To let people use Imp dials as S&V dials, FFG would have to let everyone proxy whatever they wanted so long as it was functional within the game (which means proxying in any model for another model), which would destroy the game's financial viability.

Thinking like a teenager, in that instance, is really just questioning the reasoning and not being satisfied unless the reason behind the rule is adequate. This kind of analysis is used regularly in the Supreme Court of the United States and is not considered childish or immature by anyone. With regard to the psychopath comment, I guess we will just have to single out the psychopaths and not let them make decisions regarding X-Wing rules. Seeing as they are psychopaths, it shouldn't be too difficult.

With regard to the slipper slope argument, I really don't want to bother, but I will indulge it. Your reasoning assumes that using different dials and using different ships are equivalents. This is not true. I would guess that many people who play this game would not if the models were not of the theme and quality that FFG chose. Can you say the same about maneuver dials?

With regard to fairness, you would have the ability to use mixed dials just like your opponent, so what is not fair? If you are claiming that FFG changing the rules is not fair, then you have to have some right/expectation (see post 129, I think), which you don't. FFG has changed rules in the past using FAQs and will continue to do so in the future.

Rapture you're not the Supreme Court in this analogy, FFG is the supreme court, the TOs are the cops, and you're the guy telling the judge you shouldn't get punished for drinking and driving because it's a stupid law! I would again compare your thinkin to a teenager who thinks he's above the law just because he doesn't like the law. If all you want is the rule changed, that's fine, but you're saying you should be allowed to break the rule as it stands just because you don't like it.

As much as you might hate it, Organized Play is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and FFG gets the final say, no matter what we might think about it. If you don't like the rules, you can petition FFG to officially change them (such as through these forums), you can get permission from the TO, or you can choose not to play in the tournament.

And as for fairness, it's hardly fair to players who aren't playing Scum that they should have to pay full price for all their components, while the scum player gets a free pass on having to buy all of his. Why do only Scum players get to use proxies for their components? Your imp dials are functional in the game, so are my 6 TIE bases with no models, models aren't actually needed to play the game, and I absolutely would fly 6 TIE bases in a tournament if it gave me an advantage without having to spend an extra $90.