I have been known to art-up and unique my stuff (ask me about my MtG alters!) and the general rule of thumb I always use is you don't cover up any information that someone who is playing the game for the first time needs. This would be the manuvers themselves, the name of the ship, and the faction. I plan to get and alter as many of those Promo Fels as I can.
Baron Lance Bass, Baron Jayne Cobb, Baron Kevin Smith! THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!

As I said in the last thread about customizing: The TO always has the right to say no. This sometimes makes them an *******, but as is their right as TO.

if there was no financial cost incurred in the acquisition of sufficient Scum dials?

I can't imagine anyone would have an issue with the rule if a single MW box came with dials and cards to run 8 Z-95's 4 Y-Wing's 4 HWK's and 3 Firesprays.

I get that some people aren't happy having to spend $80-120(msrp) so they can run a 4 Y-Wing or 3 Firespray list, having to spend that much money effectively for just the dials. But that argument is no more or less valid now than it was was when people were spending $120(msrp) on 4 shuttles just so they could run a 4 B-Wing w/AdvSen list.

There is no effective difference between using a photocopy/printed copy of AdvSen and a Rebel dial for a S&V Z-95. Yes you already own a dial that has the same maneuvers and correct name on the face. But FFG has ruled that faction is now part of the function of the dial. So that Rebel or Imperial dial is not the same as the S&V dial.

You may not like that rule, you are free to ignore that rule when you have the ability to do so. But what no one can do is dispute it, it is the ruling that FFG made and no one here has any authority to change it.

Couple reasons why this can be a issue

1) a player spends money to buy three most wanted so he can legally field three firesprays

Where as another player doesn't have to spend anything extra and can still field ships needed by using imperial/rebel dials.

Is that fair?

Is it not fair? People are allowed to spend their money however they want. If I found a Most Wanted kit in the street instead of paying for it, is it unfair for me to use those models against people that actually paid for it? No, because luck was involved? Is it unfair that someone bought a bunch of large ships and whatever kit has Expert Handling now that FFG changed how large ships barrel roll? Is it unfair when someone buys a Ferarri and their locality changes the highway speed limit from 55 to 45? Would it be unfair that people purchased shuttles to get Advanced Sensors and FFG subsequently included Advanced Sensors in a following release? For a change to be unfair, there has to be some right to or at least a legitimate expectation of the status quo. Do we, as customers of a for-profit company, have that right or expectation with regard to not mixing dials on the table?

Either way, it is not the goal of any independently run X-Wing tournament that I have even been to or heard of to protect someone's entitlement that their little white PoP squares provide.

I don't know if that is even possible. Are you just speculating, or do you own or have experience with a store that was cautioned or had some action taken against it by FFG?

It would still be the same rule that did not benefit the players or have any impact on the actual game, but then no one, with the exception of players who lost their components would be left with everything that they need to fly a ship with the exception of a dial with the right color backing.

The difference would be that no one would be offended by the prospect of some players having access to a larger variety of potential lists and, conversely, no would one would really be concerned about limiting someone's ability to use their models through mechanisms that do not impact the game.

I understand that it is certainly the easiest way out and following any rule ordained by the manufacturer initially feels right. But, you have to ask yourself what people stand to lose if the rule is not enforced. Will it change the outcome of the game? No, the dials work just like any other dials would. Will it cause confusion? No, as people successfully play mirror matches at every event that they attend (not to mention that any such alleged confusion can exist legally due to the rules for personalization of dials or that countless remedies are available for player who honestly think that they will be confused (like placing a sticker or their initials on their own dials)).

Enforcing the rules only serves to prevent complaining about following the rule and to limit the potential for players to use models in their collection. Sure someone could complain about the rule being broken, but what impact could they complain about? How did the rule not being applied hurt them?

Then why require that players use any FFG components at all? As long as someone shows up with bases that are the appropriate dimensions with firing arcs printed on them and have printed out the cards that they need to play there's no reason for a TO to not let them play other than enforcing rules designed to make money for FFG at the expense of the player. Models actually get in the way of playing the game, as long as the base clearly shows what ship it represents why not let people play without models?

Then why require that players use any FFG components at all?

Somehow I doubt that reasonable question will have much impact, but yeah it's spot on. Every argument about being able to proxy really has the same answer.

The biggest one, is simple aesthetics. I want the table to look good, I want the correct models on the correct bases, I want people to use the official cards, and all the rest, because it looks better IMO.

So does this mean some people will be limited in what they can play without spending more money. Yes it does, but that's not really my problem either. If someone wants to fly 8 S&V Z-95's they I don't see why they shouldn't be expected to buy 8 S&V Z-95's, I had to buy the 6 Rebel ones I own.

If I'm playing a some random person at the LGS and they break out 2 Firesprays and one of them is a S&V dial, I'm not going to say anything. But if I'm a TO, then I may very well enforce the rule, because if nothing else it's the rules.

I understand that it is certainly the easiest way out and following any rule ordained by the manufacturer initially feels right. But, you have to ask yourself what people stand to lose if the rule is not enforced. Will it change the outcome of the game? No, the dials work just like any other dials would. Will it cause confusion? No, as people successfully play mirror matches at every event that they attend (not to mention that any such alleged confusion can exist legally due to the rules for personalization of dials or that countless remedies are available for player who honestly think that they will be confused (like placing a sticker or their initials on their own dials)).

Enforcing the rules only serves to prevent complaining about following the rule and to limit the potential for players to use models in their collection. Sure someone could complain about the rule being broken, but what impact could they complain about? How did the rule not being applied hurt them?

Then why require that players use any FFG components at all? As long as someone shows up with bases that are the appropriate dimensions with firing arcs printed on them and have printed out the cards that they need to play there's no reason for a TO to not let them play other than enforcing rules designed to make money for FFG at the expense of the player. Models actually get in the way of playing the game, as long as the base clearly shows what ship it represents why not let people play without models?

Because people like the models. The models improve their gameplay experience.

Do matching dials improve the gameplay experience (not that anyone has a right to expect matching dials anyway, given the rules that have been quoted regarding personalization)?

I would be fine playing against an opponent with card s from Kinkos or even digital versions. What they say is what matters - I can't remember the last time that I looked at an opponent's cards one the game started.

I understand that it is certainly the easiest way out and following any rule ordained by the manufacturer initially feels right. But, you have to ask yourself what people stand to lose if the rule is not enforced. Will it change the outcome of the game? No, the dials work just like any other dials would. Will it cause confusion? No, as people successfully play mirror matches at every event that they attend (not to mention that any such alleged confusion can exist legally due to the rules for personalization of dials or that countless remedies are available for player who honestly think that they will be confused (like placing a sticker or their initials on their own dials)).

Enforcing the rules only serves to prevent complaining about following the rule and to limit the potential for players to use models in their collection. Sure someone could complain about the rule being broken, but what impact could they complain about? How did the rule not being applied hurt them?

Then why require that players use any FFG components at all? As long as someone shows up with bases that are the appropriate dimensions with firing arcs printed on them and have printed out the cards that they need to play there's no reason for a TO to not let them play other than enforcing rules designed to make money for FFG at the expense of the player. Models actually get in the way of playing the game, as long as the base clearly shows what ship it represents why not let people play without models?

Because people like the models. The models improve their gameplay experience.

Do matching dials improve the gameplay experience (not that anyone has a right to expect matching dials anyway, given the rules that have been quoted regarding personalization)?

I would be fine playing against an opponent with card s from Kinkos or even digital versions. What they say is what matters - I can't remember the last time that I looked at an opponent's cards one the game started.

All this stuff DOES matter in a tournament. If I'm playing a casual game, they can proxy whatever they want. In a tournament game, they'd better have the right components.

All this stuff DOES matter in a tournament. If I'm playing a casual game, they can proxy whatever they want. In a tournament game, they'd better have the right components.

Why does it matter? How does it matter?

I understand that it is certainly the easiest way out and following any rule ordained by the manufacturer initially feels right. But, you have to ask yourself what people stand to lose if the rule is not enforced. Will it change the outcome of the game? No, the dials work just like any other dials would. Will it cause confusion? No, as people successfully play mirror matches at every event that they attend (not to mention that any such alleged confusion can exist legally due to the rules for personalization of dials or that countless remedies are available for player who honestly think that they will be confused (like placing a sticker or their initials on their own dials)).

Enforcing the rules only serves to prevent complaining about following the rule and to limit the potential for players to use models in their collection. Sure someone could complain about the rule being broken, but what impact could they complain about? How did the rule not being applied hurt them?

Then why require that players use any FFG components at all? As long as someone shows up with bases that are the appropriate dimensions with firing arcs printed on them and have printed out the cards that they need to play there's no reason for a TO to not let them play other than enforcing rules designed to make money for FFG at the expense of the player. Models actually get in the way of playing the game, as long as the base clearly shows what ship it represents why not let people play without models?

Because people like the models. The models improve their gameplay experience.

Do matching dials improve the gameplay experience (not that anyone has a right to expect matching dials anyway, given the rules that have been quoted regarding personalization)?

I would be fine playing against an opponent with card s from Kinkos or even digital versions. What they say is what matters - I can't remember the last time that I looked at an opponent's cards one the game started.

Part of the purpose of the rules is to set predictable standards for all competitors to adhere to. Competitors should feel comfortable that the components permitted and the way rules are interpreted will be the same in every FFG sanctioned tournament that they attend. This means that personal preferences and opinions on whether particular rules are justified need to be set aside. TOs should make an effort to apply FFG's rules when running events to ensure uniformity.

If you are playing casual games, running a league, or sponsoring an event for the hell of it, do whatever you want.

Couple reasons why this can be a issue

1) a player spends money to buy three most wanted so he can legally field three firesprays

Where as another player doesn't have to spend anything extra and can still field ships needed by using imperial/rebel dials.

Is that fair?

Is it not fair? People are allowed to spend their money however they want. If I found a Most Wanted kit in the street instead of paying for it, is it unfair for me to use those models against people that actually paid for it? No, because luck was involved? Is it unfair that someone bought a bunch of large ships and whatever kit has Expert Handling now that FFG changed how large ships barrel roll? Is it unfair when someone buys a Ferarri and their locality changes the highway speed limit from 55 to 45? Would it be unfair that people purchased shuttles to get Advanced Sensors and FFG subsequently included Advanced Sensors in a following release? For a change to be unfair, there has to be some right to or at least a legitimate expectation of the status quo. Do we, as customers of a for-profit company, have that right or expectation with regard to not mixing dials on the table?

Either way, it is not the goal of any independently run X-Wing tournament that I have even been to or heard of to protect someone's entitlement that their little white PoP squares provide.

2) If a store did become reported by a sore loser or maybe by the player who spend the extra money and found was not fair others didn't have to, it is possible that store may not be able to host ffg sanctioned events.

I don't know if that is even possible. Are you just speculating, or do you own or have experience with a store that was cautioned or had some action taken against it by FFG?

Stop your bitching and just accept the rules for what they are

I don't think that anything I have said qualifies, as you so eloquently put it, as "bitching." How about you take a step back and just calm down? You are an anonymous individual talking to someone who is likely a thousand miles away.

Would the rule for requiring the correct dials be unreasonable if FFG sold all of X-wing in one big box: if there was no financial cost incurred in the acquisition of sufficient Scum dials?

It would still be the same rule that did not benefit the players or have any impact on the actual game, but then no one, with the exception of players who lost their components would be left with everything that they need to fly a ship with the exception of a dial with the right color backing.

The difference would be that no one would be offended by the prospect of some players having access to a larger variety of potential lists and, conversely, no would one would really be concerned about limiting someone's ability to use their models through mechanisms that do not impact the game.

How often does someone find ships laying around

This is not about buying a sports car or anything of that matter

But why should someone be allowed to use alt dials while someone else goes out and buys them

If you can't afford it, suck it up or find a different hobby or just don't play competitive

I have heard of people reporting stores and TOs for some things. I don't know what the outcome was, but why risk it?

I don't think you are worth the risk or losing out on future events because you want to be a cheapskate for whatever reasons.

I never implied that you were the one bitching, but since you seem to have took the comment directly at you then maybe your the one who should calm down. Maybe because you know yourself that you are bitching

I think for the most part the majority seem to agree that if it happens it happens.

Never did answer my question

Do you expect print off upgrade cards and be allowed to use them in a competitive event?

Instead of running out to buy three Falcons just for three engine upgrade?

Same **** thing

I think you should take a step back and relax.

Don't play competitive if it's that much of a concern

Edit

And btw

In your first reply you mention about people being unreasonable?

You are this exact thing. Unreasonable

I've already said I can see both sides to the story and for myself as long as others were ok with it, wouldn't care, and others basically say the same thing.

You on the other hand only see it one way, your way, and guess what? Your opinion is not the king of all opinions.just because you feel it's not right does not make it so.

World doesn't revolve around you. Hate to break the news to ya

If you can't understand why someone upholds the rules as written then you are the one being unreasonable

Part of the purpose of the rules is to set predictable standards for all competitors to adhere to. Competitors should feel comfortable that the components permitted and the way rules are interpreted will be the same in every FFG sanctioned tournament that they attend. This means that personal preferences and opinions on whether particular rules are justified need to be set aside. TOs should make an effort to apply FFG's rules when running events to ensure uniformity.

If you are playing casual games, running a league, or sponsoring an event for the hell of it, do whatever you want.

But does the standard mean something? If wearing a green sock on your left foot was a tournament rule, would you say that adhering to it was important?

Should every rule be applied? What about the hypothetical where the rules state that the 1st place player gets to smash another player's ship after each round? Would you say that tournaments that did not enforce that rule would be doing a disservice to players?

Are you suggesting that people would feel uncomfortable if they saw dials with different colors on the table for their opponents ships (which, according to permission granted for personalization of dials, they might very well see anyway)?

Read my edited post above

Part of the purpose of the rules is to set predictable standards for all competitors to adhere to. Competitors should feel comfortable that the components permitted and the way rules are interpreted will be the same in every FFG sanctioned tournament that they attend. This means that personal preferences and opinions on whether particular rules are justified need to be set aside. TOs should make an effort to apply FFG's rules when running events to ensure uniformity.

If you are playing casual games, running a league, or sponsoring an event for the hell of it, do whatever you want.

But does the standard mean something? If wearing a green sock on your left foot was a tournament rule, would you say that adhering to it was important?

Should every rule be applied? What about the hypothetical where the rules state that the 1st place player gets to smash another player's ship after each round? Would you say that tournaments that did not enforce that rule would be doing a disservice to players?

Are you suggesting that people would feel uncomfortable if they saw dials with different colors on the table for their opponents ships (which, according to permission granted for personalization of dials, they might very well see anyway)?

Your hypothetical rules are no different than any of the actual rules. If a player doesn't agree to abide by them then they should not be playing in tournaments that claim to use those rules. If your model smashing rule was a thing and I played at 5 tournaments that didn't enforce it because they thought it was stupid, I would be in for a shock when I go to my sixth tournament and get one of my models smashed.

I'm not suggesting that people are going to be uncomfortable if they see dials that aren't uniform looking (and I have no idea why you are so hung up on matching dials). What I am suggesting is that someone who has been allowed to play in their local Store Championships with proxy dials or dials with obscured fronts is going to be disappointed when they drive to a tournament two hours away or fly to GenCon and aren't permitted to play.

Your hypothetical rules are no different than any of the actual rules. If a player doesn't agree to abide by them then they should not be playing in tournaments that claim to use those rules. If your model smashing rule was a thing and I played at 5 tournaments that didn't enforce it because they thought it was stupid, I would be in for a shock when I go to my sixth tournament and get one of my models smashed.

I'm not suggesting that people are going to be uncomfortable if they see dials that aren't uniform looking (and I have no idea why you are so hung up on matching dials). What I am suggesting is that someone who has been allowed to play in their local Store Championships with proxy dials or dials with obscured fronts is going to be disappointed when they drive to a tournament two hours away or fly to GenCon and aren't permitted to play.

Then maybe we aren't arguing the same things (which could very well be my fault). I would not be surprised to have the rule enforced. I don't think that anyone would. People are dogmatic about adhering to rules. But, I do not think that the rule should be enforced for all of the reasons that I have stated.

I am hung up on matching dials because that is the most reasonable justification for this rule that I have read (and that is really, really not saying a lot). My ridiculous hypothetical was made up to show that rules without a justification are not necessarily a good thing and that the community might actually be better off making a decision to ignore them.

What I am suggesting is that someone who has been allowed to play in their local Store Championships with proxy dials or dials with obscured fronts is going to be disappointed when they drive to a tournament two hours away or fly to GenCon and aren't permitted to play.

I just can not understand why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp...

Everyone is more then welcome to their opinion. But your opinion doesn't matter when one persons opinion trumps everyone elses.

If you go to a event in which the TO has decided that everyone has to use the correct faction dials, then everyone will have to use the correct faction dials, they really don't have any choice in the matter. Why they may believe the rule is unjust or pointless, simply doesn't matter in the least.

No TO is going to get involved in a lengthy debate with someone the day of the tournament about why some rule or another should or shouldn't be followed.

No TO is going to get involved in a lengthy debate with someone the day of the tournament about why some rule or another should or shouldn't be followed.

If only there was a place where people who were interested in this game could come together and have such a debate ahead of time...

... If the rules said that, "All players must wear green shirts to tournaments," or, "After each round, the player in 1st can select one opponents ship and crush it with a hammer," would you begrudge people for not wanting those rules to be applied by the community that they play in? ...

But it sounds like you've come across the perfect solution for not having enough dials to cover all your different faction ships. And I bet FFG would be on board with the hammer policy. They'd never be able to keep up with the demand for more ships, even if they never put out another new wave. Plus you've also created a very viable secondary market for cards. Gee, this idea has some legs. But if you really want to get player buy in, you're probably going to have to allow them to also crush green dice that come up blank. And you should be able to smack your opponent as well, but only if it is warranted. The TO will have authority to DQ anyone who is hitting their opponent without due cause. And, you are not allowed to modify your FFG hammer in any manner. No adding spikes or lengthening the grip for better leverage.

@Rapture - Sorry about jesting with a somewhat serious point you were making. But after reading what you posted it got my mind going in a direction I just couldn't stop. In support of your actual point, without rules there isn't a game. We don't get to pick and choose which ones to adopt (in a tournament environment). A lot of these rules, while unpopular, are to protect the more trusting folks from the few riff raft that would try to take advantage of them for prize money. Is it a shame this has to be this way? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? No.

Ok kids, its time to stop feeding the troll.. we have all given sufficient input here, and mr rapture has just thrown trolling answers or comments.. he obviously isn't interested in learning the game or playing by the rules.. so he should just go play the game with... hmmm oh.. no one, because everyone plays by the RULES those things we use to make it all make sense...

We have all made great contributions here to point out the logical reasons for all his gripes, and still he doesn't get it.. time to shut the door and turn out the porch light..

I'm gonna print out some extra scum dials I think, for non-tournament use. And maybe extra cards: I've got four Y-Wings, I'd like to be able to use them all in either faction. Wish FFG would sell them separately.

That said, I'll probably get two Most Wanted, and even the cheapest S&V Firespray is over 33 pts, so maybe I won't need any more of those....

There's the truth of it, you really don't need more than 2.. I know I'm not running a S&V swarm of Z95s... but they do give me fodder for repaints to binayre pirates.. man, I wish they had painted them in that paint scheme instead of the black sun .. but.. I can change that.. lol

Ok kids, its time to stop feeding the troll..

The more he posts, the more I'm reminded of a different person who name also starts with R...

Wish FFG would sell them separately.

I would too actually, but given the production issues that FFG has, I don't think they could manage both. Plus the MW pack is a killer deal, unless all you want is 3rd Firespray dial.

With 2 of them you have 4 Y-Wings, 4 Z-95's, 2 HWK's and 2 Firesprays (assuming of course you have the models.)

Ok kids, its time to stop feeding the troll.. we have all given sufficient input here, and mr rapture has just thrown trolling answers or comments.. he obviously isn't interested in learning the game or playing by the rules.. so he should just go play the game with... hmmm oh.. no one, because everyone plays by the RULES those things we use to make it all make sense...

We have all made great contributions here to point out the logical reasons for all his gripes, and still he doesn't get it.. time to shut the door and turn out the porch light..

Feel free to correct me if I am putting words in your mouth, but can't your great contribution be entirely summed up as 'because it is a rule'? Why is that good enough for you. Why shouldn't the rules have to make sense?

Or maybe you disagree and think that the rule at issue is great. If so, how does it make your games better? Or, how is it part of the actual game?

Dude, all games have rules... we play the game and follow them, we don't pick and choose which rules to play with..

The faction concept is important, because we are choosing a side, and we should have the components to play those sides. I have 4 firesprays, and I'm getting 2 MW sets.. I'll never need more than 2 firesprays for S&V..

We also follow the rules because ...... they're the rules... if we pick and choose, then what is to stop your opponent from telling you you can't use one rule or another.. its chaos and anarchy, and frankly I wouldn't game with someone who blatantly disregards the rules.. they are in place for a reason... if you and your group are playing the way you want.. good for you, but don't be surprised if you get tossed from a official tourney... and dont cry about it either. You make your bed.. sleep in it

Edit

Ok you wanna disregard rules.. I think Darth Vader is the baddest cat in the game.. so when you are in his firing arc and in range.. you just die.. no matter what your hull and shields are.. are you good with that.. because if you are.. you arent playing the game FFG designed... see how simple that is, and how stupid the concept was..

its chaos and anarchy

Which is why I believe in RAW. It's the only common standard that anyone can reasonably use. Now if a TO wants to use different rules, that's up to them. But they need to make such a thing clear to everyone before the event starts.

You can't reasonably host a Highlander style tournament, but not tell everyone ahead of time.

But more importantly someone playing in an event doesn't get to decide what rules to follow and what ones not to, everyone has to abide by the rules that the TO has established, and assuming the standard rules is the only safe thing to do, if nothing else to the contrary has been shared.

There are also people who strictly play by the rules.

I know people who have spent hundreds downloading music.

While most just do it for free.

I swear it's easier to talk to the neighbors dog than it is some people.

I believe most people here are open minded on most things, but there are obviously ones who are pretty closed minded.

Where as they think their opinions are the ones that matter.

I for one already said I see and understand both sides