Do you even remember what you originally stated? Your claim is that communicating faction is a "function" of the maneuver dials. I disagreed and attempted to convince you that faction markings are not a function and that showing which maneuver was chosen is the function of maneuver dials.

You can respond, or you can keep stamping your feet and moving the target.

Something I notice about trolls is that they often accuse people who disagree with them of doing the exact same thing that they are, regardless of whether or not they actually are doing it.

For instance, stamping feet. The only person who is doing anything resembling stamping his feet is you, because you have a rather unusual interpretation of the modification rules in regard to dials and you keep screaming "S'not fa-yur!" when we call you on it. The burden of proof is upon you to provide evidence since you are challenging the agreed-upon notion of what constitutes legal marking of a dial. Namely, you wish to change "we may mark them for identification purposes" to "we may mark them however we want, including and up to painting over everything except the name."

It's a purely hypothetical situation where someone would ever want to do this, and the reasons for doing it are nonexistant in regard to reasonable changes to the dial.

When I say reasonable changes, I mean changes obviously designed to make it easier to play the game, namely to identify the dial and discern it from other ship dials. Does painting over the entire dial constitute a way to descern it from other dials? Technically, yes. But it's completely unnecessary when there are other, simpler ways of doing this. Using labels, putting a dab of color on the center peg, making hash marks on the edges, etc. That last one might be illegal if you're able to determine facing that way, though. But if the modification done to the dial is unnecessary, the TO will look into it and possibly ban the dial because usually the only reason people go to much effort to modify a component like this is to cheat.

Therefore, if I were a TO, and I saw you using totally black dials, I would probably tell you to find other dials or not play. It's the only way to be fair to other players.

Okay, i guess you could report me for saying the word itself, which happens pretty often on this forum. If you like i will edit it for a milder term. If you take offense on the word itself.

But i did not qualify anyone specific with it. I said someone behaving in a certain way could be. That's not exactly a targeted insult. Concerning Mini-Adolf i just said that there is one person in 100 that can't handle authority, and that's hardly abusive!

Nobody's offended by words, they're offended by the intent behind them. The implication is that a TO that does enforce dial correctness is automatically an "a-hole" a power-mad "mini-Hitler," and even if you didn't mean it that way that's the way it's been taken.

A TO's not automatically an unreasonable and unpleasant individual for not being super lenient on dials. They could agree with the general FFG ruling on the matter, they could feel obligated to follow the party line as it were when running an FFG sanctioned event, there are no shortage of possible reasons for a TO to not be okay with (technically) incorrect or heavily modified dials. If an opposing player kicks up a fuss over it then maybe there's cause to wonder if they're just angling for a DQ, but even then there are still plenty of reasons, the most likely being that opposing player feeling it's unfair that they bought 3 copies of Most Wanted and you get away with Imperial dials. The TO, however, is responsible and accountable for the event. If you don't feel their stance is right you can always discuss it with them or not go to their events.

Well we can sum it up like this. Wether we are allowed to play with the wrong faction dial or not, painted or not, entirely depends on the TO.

Because as a player i see absolutely no reason to even lose a single word about this if anytime i encounter somebody on a tournament using the wrong faction dial, or one painted with pink stripes and yellow spots... As long as it's for the right ship!

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total a-hole, he can disqualify you or not let you participate. But then if he already has you "target locked" like that, he will probably find other ways to get you out of the tournament because he basically could find anything that is "modified" or otherwise against the rules.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

It's posts like this one that make this thread contentious. The TO is not an ******* for enforcing the rules. A TO isn't being arbitrary or mean when they enforce the rules. If FFG says you need the right dial for a ship, then you need the right dial for a ship.

If some TO decides otherwise, that's their prerogative. The more "official" the tournament, the less likely it will be that you will find a TO that accepts your proxy dial.

It's not a proxy dial at all.

It is exactly a proxy dial. You are using one component that you have (an Imperial Firespray dial) to represent a component that you do not have (a Scum Firespray dial). Until FFG states that those are interchangeable components (as they have with models with alternate paintjobs) using one in place of the other is proxying.

Nobody's offended by words, they're offended by the intent behind them. The implication is that a TO that does enforce dial correctness is automatically an "a-hole" a power-mad "mini-Hitler," and even if you didn't mean it that way that's the way it's been taken.

A TO's not automatically an unreasonable and unpleasant individual for not being super lenient on dials. They could agree with the general FFG ruling on the matter, they could feel obligated to follow the party line as it were when running an FFG sanctioned event, there are no shortage of possible reasons for a TO to not be okay with (technically) incorrect or heavily modified dials. If an opposing player kicks up a fuss over it then maybe there's cause to wonder if they're just angling for a DQ, but even then there are still plenty of reasons, the most likely being that opposing player feeling it's unfair that they bought 3 copies of Most Wanted and you get away with Imperial dials. The TO, however, is responsible and accountable for the event. If you don't feel their stance is right you can always discuss it with them or not go to their events.

Guys, just don't be like that, please!

If you paint your dials correctly, there is only the TO responsible that could disqualify a "modified" component. And doing that is not reasonable, because for being, you need reasons, and there are none.

No, the company has stated quite clearly that you must have correct components for the ships in your faction, for tournaments. So if you play scum and want to play 2 Firesprays, you'd best borrow one or buy a second MW set so you have the legal components.

That's an FFG ruling and trumps TOs .. if they enforce this rule, they are compliant with official rules.. Period...

Nobody's offended by words, they're offended by the intent behind them. The implication is that a TO that does enforce dial correctness is automatically an "a-hole" a power-mad "mini-Hitler," and even if you didn't mean it that way that's the way it's been taken.

A TO's not automatically an unreasonable and unpleasant individual for not being super lenient on dials. They could agree with the general FFG ruling on the matter, they could feel obligated to follow the party line as it were when running an FFG sanctioned event, there are no shortage of possible reasons for a TO to not be okay with (technically) incorrect or heavily modified dials. If an opposing player kicks up a fuss over it then maybe there's cause to wonder if they're just angling for a DQ, but even then there are still plenty of reasons, the most likely being that opposing player feeling it's unfair that they bought 3 copies of Most Wanted and you get away with Imperial dials. The TO, however, is responsible and accountable for the event. If you don't feel their stance is right you can always discuss it with them or not go to their events.

I can see the marketing argument behind it and i completely understand that. But all the rest of it would be mere pedantism, nitpicking in the lowliest possible way especially if you have no financial interest in it yourself.

Guys, just don't be like that, please!

If you paint your dials correctly, there is only the TO responsible that could disqualify a "modified" component. And doing that is not reasonable, because for being, you need reasons, and there are none.

Using that logic, no reasonable TO should object to me showing up with upgrade cards that I took to Kinko's and printed out on card-stock. After all my proxy cards function exactly like the real thing and the only reason to make me use the actual cards is to line FFGs pockets.

If i paint all my Z-95 dials completely black for instance, except of course the viewport

If you cover up the ships name then it's unlikely anyone would let you use it. Because now they can't even tell what ship the dial belongs to.It's really a matter of better to be safe then sorry. Either the TO will let you use the wrong faction dial or they won't. If they won't there's no loop hole or other trick you can use to get away with it.

Can i mix up the Differently painted Z-95 from Scum and Rebels.

Sure they even said as much I believe, in fact you kinda have to be able to, or else the extra Y-Wing dial, cards, ect... would be rather worthless since you only get 1 Y-wing.

You get extra ywing dial?

There's six dials in the Most Wanted pack. 2xY, 1xHWK, 1xF-31 & 2xZ95s.

wow that's harsh!!

What if I were to put a pink heart-shaped sticker on the face of my Imperial Firespray dial and write 'scum' on it, to let people know what it was the scum dial and not an imperial dial. And then a round pink sticker on the back side of the plastic part, so that people knew that it corresponded to the pink on the other side, but couldn't be matched up with the window cut-out.

Would that suffice for functionality?

In theory a TO can make any ruling, but that doesn't mean the rules actually support it. Per the rules the TO's authority over components applies to Modified Components Only.

Prove it. Show me what limits "any" to mean only "modified."

That would be the heading "Component Modifications", which appears in large, bold type.

A heading does not necessarily dictate the application of general language contained below. The rules also state under that same heading that,"Players cannot bring their own playmats to play on instead of the play surfaces provided by the TO," which has noting to do with components or modifications. That heading also houses a rules against using custom set-up templates, which cannot be considered "modified" because they do not exist in a standard form.

Show me where the rules limit the permission for me to modify my dials to exclude painting it green.

That would be where it says "Players may mark... their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not compromised." You don't need to paint the entire dial green to indicate ownership, and abusing the opportunity to modify your dials falls under the "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" rules.

I already stated why changing a dial's outer appearance does not constitute unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no advantage to gain and the method of personalizing dials to indicate ownership is left to the complete preference of the owner. Painting a dial green is a way to indicate ownership and the rules allow it just like they allow one's initials to be added.

I can't do this. Of course, I also can't show you any official declaration from FFG about any function of the maneuver dial, so by precisely the same logic you could paint over all the maneuvers and argue that you're just trying to make sure you can find your own dials at the end of a match.

I'm all for comprehensive and explicit rule sets, which is a tendency I share with a number of lawyers, engineers, and computer scientists in the X-wing community. But at some point you do have to apply some judgment and, if possible, maturity. For instance, you can look at the information that's actually displayed on the face of the dial--faction, ship name, and currently selected maneuver--and conclude that those three things constitute its "function" under the rules.

Just because something contains information on its face does not mean that presenting that data is part of that object's function. My car, like most cars, has the make and model listed on the rear of the vehicle. Would you say that my car's function is to tell you that it is a Jeep? Obviously not. That information is not linked to the function of the object at all. What do cars do? Transport people. That is their function.

What does a maneuver dial do? Selects, locks, and reveals the maneuver for a ship. What else does it need to do? Nothing. As was discussed, the name of the ship is useful for keeping dials organized, but is not necessary to assure that the correct ship makes the maneuver that was chosen for it (I have played in a large number of mirror matches with unmodified dials on both sides and have only had an opponent pick up the incorrect dial a single time, and having the ship name on the dial obviously would not have prevented that as the name of the ship is on the top, not the bottom).

Har har. How clever. #59.

I color the edges of my dials in an orange sharpie.. keeps people from grabbing mine in a mirror match, but also, that black and reddish back serves to identify the dials faction and lets the players know which is their (unless in a mirror match) dials. All this bickering about coloring your dial is just serving to cheat.. that's techincally what you're trying to do.. buy the correct dial and be done with it.. or dont participate in offical tournaments..play games with your friends and if no one cares .. great. ? Have fun, but don't go to a tournament and get butt hurt when the TO says to take your cross faction dials out and use the correct ones.. it's really that simple..

Why do these simple and easy to understand concepts keep being argued over.. it's simple.. FFG stated you must have the correct faction dials for your ships in a tourney... that's the final answer and if you choose to ignore that, then dont be surprised when you dont get to play in the tournament...

It's like argueing with a 5 year old...

I've had this debate with a friend and I see both sides

When I run my next event I'll take it into consideration

If it's all the local guys who play every Thursday/Saturday etc I probably won't mind. So long as everyone else is ok with it. That is for store tournament where a bye into the regional is awarded.

If it's a leauge night kit, I wouldn't be concerned, again so long as others were ok.

However

If it's a store tournament especially, a regional bye prize is up for grabs, and I was expecting people from away ( which is very likely I'd hear about them coming before hand as I talk to others who travel) or unexpected travelers did show up (which I would let the local folks know) I may not allow the use of cross faction dials.

My reasons?

If it's where everyone knows everyone and is ok with it. No problem. We are all mature adults

But when you start getting people who travel and strangers to your area it looks a lot better when it looks like the group is following ffg guidelines.

Plus with strangers you never know when someone may get upset over something and decide to try to file a complaint against the store if they didn't do it ffgs way, and possibly that store will be unable to host future events.

That is the main reason why a tournament organizer may stick to the rules

Who is the 5 year old?

The guy that plays a tournament, gets eliminated by a guy using a dial of the wrong color and:

A) shakes his opponents hand and wishes him luck.

B) runs to the TO to complain.

There is only one correct answer and if you can find it you are not the 5 year old, no you are a real sportsman like it should be, champ!

And to the TOs! If one of you reads this, you are probably organizing tournaments for people to have fun which is a great thing to do, so don't encourage players to run weeping to the hall monitor for stuff like this, or you are encouraging bad sportsmanship.

A dial needs to show which ship it belongs to.

It is absolutely part of it's function.

Give it up rapture. You just look retarded at this point.

(yeah, they're too nice to say it but I'm not).

Who is the 5 year old?

The guy that plays a tournament, gets eliminated by a guy using a dial of the wrong color and:

A) shakes his opponents hand and wishes him luck.

B) runs to the TO to complain.

There is only one correct answer and if you can find it you are not the 5 year old, no you are a real sportsman like it should be, champ!

And to the TOs! If one of you reads this, you are probably organizing tournaments for people to have fun which is a great thing to do, so don't encourage players to run weeping to the hall monitor for stuff like this, or you are encouraging bad sportsmanship.

obviously you chose to ignore parts of my statement.. but that's ok.. I don't expect everyone to get it..

I'm not running to anyone, if a TO says anything goes, then I finish a game and weather I win or lose, I shake my opponents hand and say, Good Game..

But if I show up to the next tourney with my 2 decked out S&V Firesprays and one has a black backed dial (and honestly.. that will never happen), I'm not gonna cry if the TO says I need to get the right dial for it or I can't be in the tourney.. I'll get that S&V dial.. simple enough...

Why is this an argument.. seriously..

Who is the 5 year old?

The guy that plays a tournament, gets eliminated by a guy using a dial of the wrong color and:

A) shakes his opponents hand and wishes him luck.

B) runs to the TO to complain.

There is only one correct answer and if you can find it you are not the 5 year old, no you are a real sportsman like it should be, champ!

And to the TOs! If one of you reads this, you are probably organizing tournaments for people to have fun which is a great thing to do, so don't encourage players to run weeping to the hall monitor for stuff like this, or you are encouraging bad sportsmanship.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating playing a match, waiting until you know the outcome, and reporting the illegal dial to the TO in the event that you lose. At that point it is already too late for the remedy of having the offending player switch to a legal dial. The appropriate time to complain to the TO (if that's what you want to do) is as soon as you notice that the dials are obscured or incorrect.

What is being advocated is being honest and up front with the TO and getting your illegal dials cleared before the tournament starts instead of deceptively disguising your dial and hoping that it doesn't become an issue. If the TO doesn't clear them, either borrow the correct dials or play a different list.

Skirting the rules and attempting to disguise proxy components in an environment where proxies are not permitted is unsportsmanlike conduct and while it has no direct effect gameplay it is still cheating. Expecting your opponents to follow the same set of rules that everyone else in the competition are following is not the same as being a poor sport.

I don't know that I've seen anyone in this thread criticizing TOs that decide to permit cross-faction dial proxies. I have seen people trying to set the expectation that many TOs will enforce the rules and that they have every right to enforce the rules. It's probably been said a dozen times already in this thread; obfuscating your dial is pointless because the TOs that would allow dial proxies would have allowed it anyways and the TOs that won't aren't going to permit your disguised dial.

But guys that is exactly what will happen. I don't say you will do this or anyone i know.

But there will be cases in which Players will show this behaviour of being bad losers. The rulings allow for this and it will happen. And because of all the weird stuff i have seen happen on Miniature and TCG/LCG tournaments, i think it's a bad idea to encourage this! This goes from stealing while card decks or miniatures to flat out cheating or trying to influence TOs toward certain rule decisions, even if clearly wrong. So crying at the TO to disqualify someone would not even mark the low point of tabletop/card tournaments

I mean there will totally be players that lose a game and get so upset they want to ****** the win on the green table to say, with any possible means.

And there will be TOs that give in to such protests. I mean it would be their own fault if they let it even come to that point, but they are the ones with the authority to decide this. And as i said even TOs are not always reasonable people!

I am going to resist the urge to quote Peter Parkers uncle here... I think that would be too much at this point.

The solution i would propose would simply be to not give this kind of total freedom to official TOs. FFG should write a clearer code of conduct and oblige them to check this kind of stuff beforehand, or it will lead to exactly what i described!

My TO said... anyone wants to do that, they'll get a warning.. plus, we all turn in a list before the games start.. and I'm sure if at the first game someone says.. hey, what's up with those dials.. the TO just might involve himself.

This just seems disingenuous to me, play fair and honest, why are people thinking about these things.. when they come up at the game bring it up. I had a guy set up incorrectly in a game, and I mentioned the proper distance for starting.. the TO was right there, I basically ignored him and after everything was hashed out he told me I was right to do it the way I did. we had a great game and shook hands at the end..

simple and easy..

My TO said... anyone wants to do that, they'll get a warning.. plus, we all turn in a list before the games start.. and I'm sure if at the first game someone says.. hey, what's up with those dials.. the TO just might involve himself.

This just seems disingenuous to me, play fair and honest, why are people thinking about these things.. when they come up at the game bring it up. I had a guy set up incorrectly in a game, and I mentioned the proper distance for starting.. the TO was right there, I basically ignored him and after everything was hashed out he told me I was right to do it the way I did. we had a great game and shook hands at the end..

simple and easy..

Why do these simple and easy to understand concepts keep being argued over.. it's simple.. FFG stated you must have the correct faction dials for your ships in a tourney... that's the final answer and if you choose to ignore that, then dont be surprised when you dont get to play in the tournament...

It's like argueing with a 5 year old...

The point of the discussion, for me, is that the simple existence of a rule does not make it essential to the game and does not automatically mean that it should be followed. If the rules said that, "All players must wear green shirts to tournaments," or, "After each round, the player in 1st can select one opponents ship and crush it with a hammer," would you begrudge people for not wanting those rules to be applied by the community that they play in?

I don't think that anyone would be surprised if someone took issue with them breaking a rule (even if that rule has no impact on game play and the event is, supposedly, to determine who is the best at playing the game). I, personally, am just surprised that people take the energy to care what color a dial is. The issue exists and is discussed because the various justifications for the faction dial rule are, putting it mildly, very easy to challenge. It has been discussed to death, but suggestions of confusion are completely unfounded when the rules already give permission for dials to be modified to look like zebras (not to mention that mirror matches, where both player's dials are identical, have never resulted in the game grinding to a halt). It then falls back to arguing technicalities and alleged "functions" of dials, which, even if advertising faction was a function of the dial, would still have no impact on actual game play.

In the end, no one is arguing that the rules don't say what they say (other than some early belief that dials could not be colored by their owners, which should be corrected at this point). The argument is really whether the rule is important or beneficial and whether people should apply it. I know that people get excited at the prospect that FFG might not be making the best decisions to control players, but even the most friendly companies make decisions for themselves instead of for the customers, so why should the customers accommodate such decisions if they don't have to?

I understand that it is certainly the easiest way out and following any rule ordained by the manufacturer initially feels right. But, you have to ask yourself what people stand to lose if the rule is not enforced. Will it change the outcome of the game? No, the dials work just like any other dials would. Will it cause confusion? No, as people successfully play mirror matches at every event that they attend (not to mention that any such alleged confusion can exist legally due to the rules for personalization of dials or that countless remedies are available for player who honestly think that they will be confused (like placing a sticker or their initials on their own dials)).

Enforcing the rules only serves to prevent complaining about following the rule and to limit the potential for players to use models in their collection. Sure someone could complain about the rule being broken, but what impact could they complain about? How did the rule not being applied hurt them?

I do have to say that I do not own a game store and I have no idea what FFG's policy might be regarding complaints about locations (where I play, tournaments are not run by the stores themselves, but always by an independent TO) that do not follow the Tournament Rules exactly. If that might be a legitimate issue for someone's business, then I don't think that anyone could realistically expect a store to break even the most ridiculous of rules.

Why is this an argument.. seriously..

It's not actually. It's a few people trying to find a loophole they can exploit, which doesn't exist. And then one person who is so clueless I've put him on ignore.

Painting your dial to cover all faction markings is pointless, the only thing it will accomplish is possibly get you kicked out of a tournament. You can't honestly expect to trick the TO into letting you use it.

If the TO is going to require that you use the correct faction dial, and he can't tell what faction the dial belongs to, you haven't gained anything. He'll reject the dial, period.

If the TO is not going to require that you use the correct faction dial, then painting it won't accomplish anything good, because if you don't they'll let you use it. But since you did paint it, they may reject the dial because it looks like you're trying to hide something.

Seriously none of this is up for debate, it's simply a list of possible outcomes.

What a TO should do I don't really feel needs to be addressed, they are completely welcome to enforce the rules as they see fit. Anyone who thinks someone is doing something wrong by expecting people to play by the rules... Well that says everything that needs to be said.

Would the rule for requiring the correct dials be unreasonable if FFG sold all of X-wing in one big box: if there was no financial cost incurred in the acquisition of sufficient Scum dials?

Couple reasons why this can be a issue

1) a player spends money to buy three most wanted so he can legally field three firesprays

Where as another player doesn't have to spend anything extra and can still field ships needed by using imperial/rebel dials.

Is that fair?

2) If a store did become reported by a sore loser or maybe by the player who spend the extra money and found was not fair others didn't have to, it is possible that store may not be able to host ffg sanctioned events.

I think those who think they should just be allowed to use whatever, then give your heads a shake.

Do you show up with printed off cards because you don't want to buy them?

How many people bought three shuttles just for advanced sensors?

Same idea

Stop your bitching and just accept the rules for what they are