Dude, all games have rules... we play the game and follow them, we don't pick and choose which rules to play with..

Players can and do. Ask a 40k player how many of their games used the rules for mysterious terrain or mysterious objectives (especially at tournaments).

The faction concept is important, because we are choosing a side, and we should have the components to play those sides. I have 4 firesprays, and I'm getting 2 MW sets.. I'll never need more than 2 firesprays for S&V..

You don't have to choose a side to buy. Most, by my experiences on this forum, buy whatever is available. FFG obviously encourages this, as it is good for business.

We also follow the rules because ...... they're the rules... if we pick and choose, then what is to stop your opponent from telling you you can't use one rule or another.. its chaos and anarchy, and frankly I wouldn't game with someone who blatantly disregards the rules.. they are in place for a reason... if you and your group are playing the way you want.. good for you, but don't be surprised if you get tossed from a official tourney... and dont cry about it either. You make your bed.. sleep in it

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Ok you wanna disregard rules.. I think Darth Vader is the baddest cat in the game.. so when you are in his firing arc and in range.. you just die.. no matter what your hull and shields are.. are you good with that.. because if you are.. you arent playing the game FFG designed... see how simple that is, and how stupid the concept was..

Slippery slope arguments are infamous, so I recommend you just look that up rather than having me explain it to you here. With regard to who is there to stop people from ignoring other rules, you are there. So is you opponent and the people at you store and the people on this forum. People are fully capable of deciding which rules are bad and need to be changed or ignored. Slavery used to be a rule. People weighed it and decided that they didn't like it, so now it is gone. This happens all the time. Baseball used to be played until one team reached a certain score rather than for a set number of innings. That was bad for the game, so people stopped playing that way.

We can tell the difference between a bad rule and a good one. The initial question is, "What difference does following the rule make?" If no one has a good answer, than it is pretty obvious that it is a bad rule.

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Ok you wanna disregard rules.. I think Darth Vader is the baddest cat in the game.. so when you are in his firing arc and in range.. you just die.. no matter what your hull and shields are.. are you good with that.. because if you are.. you arent playing the game FFG designed... see how simple that is, and how stupid the concept was..

No one would agree to play with that rule. By the way, you obviously feel that you are capable of identifying a bad rule because you just made one up to use as an example. Now, how about mine? Every player has to wear a green sock on their left foot. The reaction to your rule would likely be that it will seriously disrupt game balance and ruin player experience. The response to my rule would likely be, "Why?"

If the sock rule was real, not wearing the right color would technically not be playing the game that FFG intended, but, like ignoring the single faction dial rule, there would be no change in gameplay or player experience.

I will also say this... if we are playing a casual game, I'm fine with proxied cards, or cross faction dials, which .. in the beginning.. many S&V lists will be... possibly..

But don'tcome to a tournament and expect the same. Its a different animal ... regulated for fairness to all involved.. if I had to buy 2 MW boxes to play my dual mando list, myou bet I wanna see that someone else did the same.. not just painted over a dial back to 'make it work' we alre all held to the same standard.. making it fair to all..

So you think that the game can be played with the single faction dial rules, but you want people to have to buy-in in order for them to have the same access as you? Why? Lets say that they didn't spend the money - would you know if they didn't tell you? It is the same game. You are playing the same player in the same test of skill, which is what really matters for a tournament. I admit that that is only my image of a tournament, so yours might be different. It seem like it is still 'who can play the best' but with the minor addition to make it 'who can buy it and and play the best.'

Would you feel the same way if your opponent borrowed ships in order to complete their list? You still spent the money and they did not.

you're an idiot.. I have lent ships out and cards and ties to play the game.. you have the most ridiculous arguments for your view point.. just stop trolling this forum.. you add nothing to this and have only added argumentative views.. .. you have added nothing of interest.. I'm done here..

seriously.. just disappear.. no one is going to allow you in a tournament with your disruptive attitude, and if they do.. it's because they're just as idiotic as you are..

Oh, this forum....

This looks like the best heated debate there's been for a while.

I do think that Rapture has a good number of points, and overall I agree with him, but he's putting in WAAAY too much energy for $40.

in casual games.. he is right.. no problem.. proxy anything you like.. but in tourneys.. get the proper expansions or don't play in tourneys..

I'm just tired of his crap really.. whiny little.. B**** it's getting tiresome feeding the troll

so the dials are exactly the same except they have different faction symbols on the front? And the ships are exactly the same except they are painted differently? And somehow facing a fleet that has the right ship, the right base, and a dial that says the name of that ship and has the correct menuvers on it, but a different faction symbol, is going to somehow cause someone to not be able to accurately play their fleet and make the game unfair to them because that misfactioned dial is giving their opponent some kind of advantage? I fail to see how a symbol on a dial is worth this much uproar. Would someone really call the TO over to disqualify their opponent simply because of a symbol on a dial that in every other aspect is correct?

Models are not

What is different about the Models other than the paint scheme, which according to the rules you can change on your models anyways.

Jeez, I really don't get what you guys are arguing about. I'm pretty sure everybody here will agree that in a non-tournament setting you can use whatever rules both players agree to (such as agreeing to use tournament rules instead of standard rules, that's a common example). In a tournament setting, you use whatever rules the TO has announced before people sign up. So long as everyone involved agrees to the rules before the start of the game then that's all there is to it, right?

As to the purpose of the single dial rule - I agree that it's one that's harmlessly ignored, at present. However, in future there may be ships that have different dials in different factions. One way to make sure somebody doesn't use one such different dial is to rule that they can't use ANY dials from the opposing faction. The alternative would be keeping track of them individually, based on knowing which ships have different dials, which could be a big complicated hassle.

I'd be happy to allow cross faction dials at present, and even maybe in a hypothetical future when some are different, but I can totally understand why other people, including FFG, prefer the keep it simple approach.

Wish FFG would sell them separately.

I would too actually, but given the production issues that FFG has, I don't think they could manage both.

Don't they have a print on demand thing? Have you ever used that? I haven't looked into it myself, wonder if it would be an option.

you're an idiot.. I have lent ships out and cards and ties to play the game.. you have the most ridiculous arguments for your view point.. just stop trolling this forum.. you add nothing to this and have only added argumentative views.. .. you have added nothing of interest.. I'm done here..

seriously.. just disappear.. no one is going to allow you in a tournament with your disruptive attitude, and if they do.. it's because they're just as idiotic as you are..

It is fine that you think lending ships is different that people being allowed to use mixed faction dials, but wasn't your argument that allowing people to used mixed faction dials would be unfair because other people had to pay to use the ships that they prefer?

If so, aren't people who borrow ships also not matching the investment of players who purchase ships? Is that also not fair? If it is not, what is the difference between the two instances?

By the way, you need to chill.

As to the purpose of the single dial rule - I agree that it's one that's harmlessly ignored, at present. However, in future there may be ships that have different dials in different factions. One way to make sure somebody doesn't use one such different dial is to rule that they can't use ANY dials from the opposing faction. The alternative would be keeping track of them individually, based on knowing which ships have different dials, which could be a big complicated hassle.

I agree that future proofing is a fine reason and would make sense. It is just that there is no suggestion, as far as I know, of single ships having dials with different maneuvers on them.

you're an idiot.. I have lent ships out and cards and ties to play the game.. you have the most ridiculous arguments for your view point.. just stop trolling this forum.. you add nothing to this and have only added argumentative views.. .. you have added nothing of interest.. I'm done here.. seriously.. just disappear.. no one is going to allow you in a tournament with your disruptive attitude, and if they do.. it's because they're just as idiotic as you are..

It is fine that you think lending ships is different that people being allowed to use mixed faction dials, but wasn't your argument that allowing people to used mixed faction dials would be unfair because other people had to pay to use the ships that they prefer? If so, aren't people who borrow ships also not matching the investment of players who purchase ships? Is that also not fair? If it is not, what is the difference between the two instances? By the way, you need to chill.

As to the purpose of the single dial rule - I agree that it's one that's harmlessly ignored, at present. However, in future there may be ships that have different dials in different factions. One way to make sure somebody doesn't use one such different dial is to rule that they can't use ANY dials from the opposing faction. The alternative would be keeping track of them individually, based on knowing which ships have different dials, which could be a big complicated hassle.

I agree that future proofing is a fine reason and would make sense. It is just that there is no suggestion, as far as I know, of single ships having dials with different maneuvers on them.

Well, not yet. Makes sense for FFG to keep their options open.

Slavery seems like a ridiculous and obviously evil concept to us now that we can look at it with hindsight, but to the people of that era that suffered and profited from it, it was a reality that they had to live with, created and enforced by the people in power at the time, whether they agreed with it or not. That reality could not be changed just by ignoring it, or claiming that you would not be subject to it. Doing that would either get you whipped, imprisoned, or hanged ...[/quote ]

Wow, an actual real life slavery apologist?

Saturday I'm going to go play at a casual tournament at a store I've never been to before. A couple guys there come and play in the league I run so I'm going to go visit their home store to take part in their event.

I go there with the understanding that I know how the tournament will be run, what rules they'll enforce, and what squads are legal, because they are playing by the standard tournament rules.

I know it will be a 100 point 6 asteroid death match, I know we'll be playing by the competitive rules, I know they'll be using some sort of swiss matching system, and so on. I know all this because these are the standard rules in the FFG Tournament FAQ. They don't have to list everything in that PDF because it's assumed everyone will have read it.

As soon as you start selectively enforcing some rules or making up your own, you no longer are running a standard tournament, and if you don't make that very clear, it's going to have a negative impact on your event. Because someone people will show up knowing what the 'house rules' are and some won't. That puts those who don't at a disadvantage, and will in fact make the TO's job harder.

Because you can bet that those who don't know the rules will be going to the TO when someone takes advantage of them.

So agree or disagree with the rules it is as a simple matter of fact, simpler and easier to follow them all.

I still haven't seen someone present a good reason for the rule.

By which you mean you haven't seen someone present a reason you agree with.

Obviously. I don't think I remember them all and I don't have time to review the thread right now, but I will give it a shot:

1) Because it is a rule.

2) Aesthetics.

It's possible FFG is attempting to do something similar here--that is, exert as much control as feasible over the aesthetics of the game--and I'm sympathetic to that end, if not necessarily with the means.

3) Confusion.

4) Profit for FFG.

5) Slippery slope. AKA, "If we break that rule, what is to stop people from committing murder in the streets."

6) Fairness.

You don't seem like an unreasonable person. Why do you think that the single faction dial rule should be followed.

What I find frustrating is that you're conflating whether the rule is reasonable with whether you should follow it in a tournament situation. The answer to the former is debatable; the answer to the latter is pretty clearly "yes". The consequence of following the rule is relatively small for someone who's already invested in X-wing--or possibly even zero, if you have generous friends. The consequence of trying to bend the rules into a shape you can crawl through, though, is being disqualified from a tournament (and, depending on whether and to what degree you defaced modified the dial in question, having to buy a new one).

Apparently the downside risk is worth it to you, and I have no idea why you feel that way--let alone why it's worth a ten-page thread where you've pissed multiple people off. That's not to say that you're the only one who's been rude, but you've essentially doubled down on the idea that any amount of rule-twisting and argument with TOs is worth it to prove how unjustified this rule is.

And that's what's puzzling and frustrating to me: that you'd pick a fight with someone who's busy, almost certainly an unpaid volunteer, and who doesn't even get to play over, essentially, whether you should have to pay the same $30 everyone else did to run that second Scum Firespray. I don't really have a problem engaging in that conversation here, but if you forced me to waste my time on it on a game day I'd be fairly angry with you, and--I think--justifiably so.

Wow, an actual real life slavery apologist?

It's a distraction from the thread topic, but yeah: Tvboy, I'm sure you didn't mean everything you implied there, but that opinion is as historically ignorant as it is offensive.

I agree with you that that's not a defensible reason for a rule's existence. VanorDM's point, lo these many pages ago, was that once the rule is in place it's important to follow it because there are consequences to refusing, and he was right as far as that goes.

I have said a number of times here and on other threads I'd have no issue with someone using the wrong dials for a casual game. I also wouldn't have any issue with someone using a index card that says "Engine Upgrade" on it in the same situation.

I would have no issue with someone doing the same at a casual tournament, like say the one I'm going to tomorrow... If that is stated ahead of time.

But at a store championship or beyond? Yes I think they very much owe it to everyone to follow the rules as written, regardless of what someone's opinion on it is. That is the only way to have a fair event, where everyone plays by the same rules.

Hello X-Wing Forum Community-

Because of the antagonistic and abusive language used in many of this thread's posts, this topic has been locked. Please continue beneficial conversation in other threads, and remember to be courteous toward every user.

Thanks, and keep playing,

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