A rebel Z-95 blister comes with all the components to run a rebel Z-95 and MW comes with all the components to run two ScumZs. To, by FFG's model, make them compatible with Rebels they'd need to give you Rebel dials, rebel baseplates and rebel generics. They'd probably need another sheet of punchboard to do that.

Two sheets, probably.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesnt matter to me, the local guys wont care, and my money for conventions goes to warmachine anyway. Just slight OCD of not having the "correct" tiles cards and dials slightly bothers me

It's not about OCD, or (as others have suggested) a naked profit motive. It's fundamentally about being able to quickly and easily tell which dials belong to which ships. That is, if you're playing an Imperial Firespray, and I'm playing a Scum Firespray with an Imperial dial, there's a fairly substantial risk of confusing the two--me picking up your dial, or vice versa.

Of course, the same risk will exist any time you're playing a mirror match with similar ships, but there's nothing FFG can feasibly do to fix the issue in that context. But they can ensure that the issue doesn't spread beyond mirror matches into cross-faction matches, so they did.

Can i mix up the Differently painted Z-95 from Scum and Rebels. That's something i could imagine doing. For instance i would take the Rebel ones for generics and the much cooler Black sun paint scheme for named "aces". Or i would differentiate 2 squadrons in Epic like that... Would that be officially allowed?

Yes, you can. You can already do this with Interceptors, B-wings, and A-wings: as long as you have a model that matches the ship, you can use that model regardless of its markings.

In theory a TO can make any ruling, but that doesn't mean the rules actually support it. Per the rules the TO's authority over components applies to Modified Components Only.

Prove it. Show me what limits "any" to mean only "modified."

That would be the heading "Component Modifications", which appears in large, bold type.

Show me where the rules limit the permission for me to modify my dials to exclude painting it green.

That would be where it says "Players may mark... their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not compromised." You don't need to paint the entire dial green to indicate ownership, and abusing the opportunity to modify your dials falls under the "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" rules.

While you are at it, you can show me an official declaration by FFG sastating that showing faction choice is a function of the maneuver dials.

I can't do this. Of course, I also can't show you any official declaration from FFG about any function of the maneuver dial, so by precisely the same logic you could paint over all the maneuvers and argue that you're just trying to make sure you can find your own dials at the end of a match.

I'm all for comprehensive and explicit rule sets, which is a tendency I share with a number of lawyers, engineers, and computer scientists in the X-wing community. But at some point you do have to apply some judgment and, if possible, maturity. For instance, you can look at the information that's actually displayed on the face of the dial--faction, ship name, and currently selected maneuver--and conclude that those three things constitute its "function" under the rules.

You don't need to do anything to personalipersonalize a dial - it is strictly a preference and left to the complete discretion of the owner.

Sporting? You can't be serious. It has no impact on the actual gameplay - how can it possibly be unsporting?

The function of a maneuver dial is simple and obvious - to select, lock, and then communicate that maneumaneuver. Ask yourself whether playing with dials that are blank save for the actuaacbearings and speeds would impact the gamgambetter yet, try it. You game will be the same as always. Any confusion that resulted would be the result of a failure to follow The rule that dials have to be placed closest to the ship they apply to.

I can't reply to the rest of your post right now, but you at least put some effort into it and I plan on thinking about what you have to say when I have time.

We ask for evidence and you give only conclusions. We know what you think, no you have to show us why your conclusion is valid. Actual rules, as opposed to opinions, are at least necessary for some of your conclusions.

Is that a royal "we"? You seem like the only one asking for this. I also don't notice you providing anything but your own assertions and opinions about how a line from the rulebook should be interpreted. It's not like Vanor has some wild and crazy rules interpretation that he's trying to convince everyone of. I'd be willing to bet that his interpretation of the rules in this matter are going to be in line with that of most TOs.

The function of a maneuver dial is simple and obvious - to select, lock, and then communicate that maneumaneuver. Ask yourself whether playing with dials that are blank save for the actuaacbearings and speeds would impact the gamgambetter yet, try it. You game will be the same as always. Any confusion that resulted would be the result of a failure to follow The rule that dials have to be placed closest to the ship they apply to.

That would be an absolute ***********. I'd venture to guess that I probably catch myself placing the wrong dial at least once a game on average. It would also be a huge pain in traffic jam situations where dials are being shoved around the table and ships are being marked and pulled from the table to allow room for templates.

Dials without names would make the game drag to a halt.

Because people will in fact put the wrong dial on the wrong ship. How could you possibly keep them straight without knowing which ship goes to which dial? Short of memorizing every dial in the game and knowing what maneuvers a given ship could or couldn't make.

Then as WWHSD points out, anytime dials get moved, then you can't know which ship it goes back to.

Also the Faction of a dial does matter, simply because FFG says it does. There's simply no debating this really. You're free to ignore the rule if you wish, but when playing in an event, you don't get to decide if that rule will be followed or not, you're subject to what the TO decides.

Step 1: Select maneuver.

Step 2: Place dial closest to its corresponding ship.

Step 3: Reveal dial and place it on its corresponding pilot card.

Step 4: Repeat.

Unless you like to pile them up and mix them around after the combat phase, blank dials would not change how you play at all. I will acknowledge that mix-ups would eventually happen, but adding the ship name to the otherwise all white dials would resolve that issue completely. However, that still means that faction markings and colors on dials are completely irrelevant to the actual game.

Were you honestly not able to figure that out, or are you just searching for a criticism?

On second thought... It's not worth it. I might as well debate philosophy with a 5 year old.

Step 1: Select maneuver.

Step 2: Place dial closest to its corresponding ship.

Step 3: Reveal dial and place it on its corresponding pilot card.

Step 4: Repeat.

Unless you like to pile them up and mix them around after the combat phase, blank dials would not change how you play at all. I will acknowledge that mix-ups would eventually happen, but adding the ship name to the otherwise all white dials would resolve that issue completely. However, that still means that faction markings and colors on dials are completely irrelevant to the actual game.

Were you honestly not able to figure that out, or are you just searching for a criticism?

Having models is also completely irrelevant to the actual game. Only the base actually matters to game play, the models themselves are actually an impediment to playing the game. Should a TO allow to you to show up with nothing but bases since the game will play the same?

I will say I do believe this is much more of a move by FFG to sell more product than any sort of game play issue. Which is 100% fine by me. I just don't see any more confusion being brought than a mirror match would.

I'd also likely be unhappy if someone covered the name on the dial but otherwise I'm all for artistic license. Squad emblems on the dials could be pretty cool.

Should a TO allow to you to show up with nothing but bases since the game will play the same?

I like how he edited his post after the fact to cover the issue I actually had. Namely the lack of names. I never once said anything about the lack of faction information...

Yet he once again completely missed the whole point of my post and attempted to win points with yet another rather pathetic strawman.

Will the lack of faction art have an impact on the mechanics of the game? Clearly not, and no one has tried to claim otherwise.

Has FFG stated that faction correct dials are required for tournaments? Yes they have and any argument to the contrary is trying to deny reality.

Does everyone have to follow FFG's requirement? No the don't have to.

Sporting? You can't be serious. It has no impact on the actual gameplay - how can it possibly be unsporting?

I'm entirely serious. If you look at a rule that allows you to mark your maneuver dial for the explicit purpose of identifying it as yours, and you extrapolate that out to a principle that allows you to play with a dial that has the entire face obscured, then you're pretty clearly abusing that rule. That's defined in the tournament rules as unsportsmanlike conduct, and it can get you DQed.

The function of a maneuver dial is simple and obvious - to select, lock, and then communicate that maneumaneuver. Ask yourself whether playing with dials that are blank save for the actuaacbearings and speeds would impact the gamgambetter yet, try it. You game will be the same as always. Any confusion that resulted would be the result of a failure to follow The rule that dials have to be placed closest to the ship they apply to.

I play with proxy components fairly often. In doing so I've discovered that marking maneuver dials so that they correspond to at least a ship class, and preferably faction as well, is absolutely necessary. Not doing so leads almost inevitably to a situation where you're staring at a dial that's approximately halfway between two ships, wondering which ship it belongs to or even which player.

(The worst version of this, which I have actually experienced, was two blank overlapping dials that were both about halfway between my ship and my opponent's ship. We'd been a bit careless about placement, and then we'd moved things around to adjudicate a collision between other ships, and now neither of us had any idea which dial belonged to which ship. We couldn't just flip them over, because me seeing his planned maneuver was very likely to make a difference in my action choice.)

X-wing is a game where accidental nudges and bumps are close to unavoidable; there's a reason they're specifically allowed in the tourney rules. FFG is also trying to make it (or rather, keep it) a game that's reasonably fast to play. Among other things, that means their components should be as identifiable as possible with a particular ship, because anything else invites extra confusion and chaos.

Ideally, my opponent and I should be able to throw all our dials into the same basket and easily separate them out again. Again ideally, I could put all my facedown dials into the same pile and easily match them with the correct ship without revealing them. But there are limitations on what you can actually do with cardboard and plastic for a mass market, so we don't live in that ideal world. Given those limitations, you need the dial to show as much as possible about the ship it belongs to, which means (a) ship type and (b) faction, as well as the planned maneuver.

I can't reply to the rest of your post right now, but you at least put some effort into it and I plan on thinking about what you have to say when I have time.

I'm glad to hear you're taking me seriously, and I'm looking forward to that more detailed response.

Will the lack of faction art have an impact on the mechanics of the game? Clearly not, and no one has tried to claim otherwise.

I'm actually claiming otherwise. It's not absolutely, critically, can't-play-without-it important, and it doesn't fix the mirror-match case, but for cross-faction ships it helps avoid some of the confusing situations that could arise.

Do you even remember what you originally stated? Your claim is that communicating faction is a "function" of the maneuver dials. I disagreed and attempted to convince you that faction markings are not a function and that showing which maneuver was chosen is the function of maneuver dials.

You can respond, or you can keep stamping your feet and moving the target.

Do you even remember what you originally stated? Your claim is that communicating faction is a "function" of the maneuver dials. I disagreed and attempted to convince you that faction markings are not a function and that showing which maneuver was chosen is the function of maneuver dials.

You can respond, or you can keep stamping your feet and moving the target.

It is part of the function of the dial. Whether it is a function that serves an important game purpose at this time is debatable. The information contained on the face of the dial links it to a type of ship. A Scum Y-Wing and a Rebel Y-Wing are two different types of ship.

I'm actually claiming otherwise. It's not absolutely, critically, can't-play-without-it important

That's my point though, faction doesn't have any effect on the mechanics of the game itself. Sure it could cause confusion and other issues, but its not in anyway mandatory for the game to function.

If it were, then mirror Tie Swarm games wouldn't function. But that is also irrelevant to the matter at hand, namely if the faction correct dial is required or not, which it is because FFG said it is.

Your claim is that communicating faction is a "function" of the maneuver dials.

Listen here sparky, you really should try reading what people say and try to understand it, a talent you seem to lack.

Yes Faction is a function of the dial, and you know why? Because FFG said it is. When they ruled that you had to use the correct faction dial for a ship, they stated that Faction is a function of the dial. Please refute that simple fact... I'd love to see you try.

This is not moving the target, this is me setting another one of your pathetic strawmen aflame for everyone to see. Perhaps if you actually responded to the points I'm making, rather than the ones you make up so you believe you can score a point, this might go better for you. But I don't think you actually can because you can't seem to actually grasp the point anyone else is making, you're too blinded by your indignation to actually see and understand what anyone is saying.

Man, didn't we just have this argument? With some of the very same posters? And didn't lots of the same heat get thrown around, until it got locked?

Maybe folks should chill a little.

I'm losing track of the actual stances in the dial marking argument.

FFG have stated that in an FFG tournament you need to use your faction's components: that's Scum baseplates and Scum dials. It is also true that they permit you to mark your dials to aid in identification provided their function is not impaired (final say on eligibility down to the TO). It is physically possible to modify a dial to the point where its faction can no longer be discerned. Does this count as impairing its function? Does it go beyond marking? That's up to whoever's running the event.

Even if either of you somehow do persuade the other that you're right it doesn't change the fact that it's completely down to the TO. If you actually do believe that the TO of whichever events you go to will be fine with such dial modification then by all means do it. (I'd personally advise asking first so you don't waste your dials if they're not okay with it). If you're after an official FFG stance then use the Rules Questions feature in Customer Support.

If, like myself, you don't play competitive X-wing then you can use the Imperial dials with the Scum Firespray anyway. They're your parts to use however you want.

Well we can sum it up like this. Wether we are allowed to play with the wrong faction dial or not, painted or not, entirely depends on the TO.

Because as a player i see absolutely no reason to even lose a single word about this if anytime i encounter somebody on a tournament using the wrong faction dial, or one painted with pink stripes and yellow spots... As long as it's for the right ship!

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total (Edit:)sissy, he can disqualify you or not let you participate. But then if he already has you "target locked" like that, he will probably find other ways to get you out of the tournament because he basically could find anything that is "modified" or otherwise against the rules.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

Well we can sum it up like this. Wether we are allowed to play with the wrong faction dial or not, painted or not, entirely depends on the TO.

Yes, which is what I've been saying this whole thread.

Well we can sum it up like this. Wether we are allowed to play with the wrong faction dial or not, painted or not, entirely depends on the TO.

Because as a player i see absolutely no reason to even lose a single word about this if anytime i encounter somebody on a tournament using the wrong faction dial, or one painted with pink stripes and yellow spots... As long as it's for the right ship!

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total a-hole, he can disqualify you or not let you participate. But then if he already has you "target locked" like that, he will probably find other ways to get you out of the tournament because he basically could find anything that is "modified" or otherwise against the rules.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

It's posts like this one that make this thread contentious. The TO is not an ******* for enforcing the rules. A TO isn't being arbitrary or mean when they enforce the rules. If FFG says you need the right dial for a ship, then you need the right dial for a ship.

If some TO decides otherwise, that's their prerogative. The more "official" the tournament, the less likely it will be that you will find a TO that accepts your proxy dial.

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total a-hole, he can disqualify you or not let you participate.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

Y'know, posts like this don't do a whole heck of a lot to keep things civil. Once you start painting "the other side" as ***holes and miniature Hitlers mad on their imagined authority, you're not really helping the conversation.

And I say that as someone who agrees, personally, that I'd rather the rule about faction dials didn't exist (but who acknowledges that the rule DOES exist, and who isn't all that upset about it).

Was trying to avoid it but...

Anyone who calls someone who wants to follow the rules an a-hole... Well I think that says everything that needs to be said.

There are a number of reasons why faction correct dials make sense, reasons other than just selling more product. But some sort of power trip is not going to be one of them. No one TO's an event for the sake of the power, or at least they don't TO a second one. Because like a powermad DM, they find that few people are going to bother keep playing with them.

Well we can sum it up like this. Wether we are allowed to play with the wrong faction dial or not, painted or not, entirely depends on the TO.

Because as a player i see absolutely no reason to even lose a single word about this if anytime i encounter somebody on a tournament using the wrong faction dial, or one painted with pink stripes and yellow spots... As long as it's for the right ship!

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total a-hole, he can disqualify you or not let you participate. But then if he already has you "target locked" like that, he will probably find other ways to get you out of the tournament because he basically could find anything that is "modified" or otherwise against the rules.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

It's posts like this one that make this thread contentious. The TO is not an ******* for enforcing the rules. A TO isn't being arbitrary or mean when they enforce the rules. If FFG says you need the right dial for a ship, then you need the right dial for a ship.

If some TO decides otherwise, that's their prerogative. The more "official" the tournament, the less likely it will be that you will find a TO that accepts your proxy dial.

And it is possible to mask your dial by painting it so you can't tell the difference. And then a TO can disqualify because the thing is modified but not because it's the wrong faction because he can't see it if you can follow me that far.

So in this case the rule that you cannot use the dial of the wrong faction is moot, you can't see it. So it is entirely up to the TO at the end of the day.

And if he wants to be an (Edit:)sissy about it, that's of course his good right. but being right about something, and being reasonable are two different things in this case. Nobody is getting any advantage off this as a player so why would anybody even care

The only ones from which i would understand such behaviour would be FFG Staff because to them it could matter that you bought one less Z-95 from the right faction for financial reasons. All the others are just trying to be holyer than the pope himself!

But i guess if the TO wants to be a total a-hole, he can disqualify you or not let you participate.

Thankfulky the vast majority of TOs would not even bat an eye about this. But i guess if you give authority (as insignificant as it might be) over other people to 100 persons, you will always find one that can't handle it and transforms into Mini-Adolf. The world is a bad place i guess!

Y'know, posts like this don't do a whole heck of a lot to keep things civil. Once you start painting "the other side" as ***holes and miniature Hitlers mad on their imagined authority, you're not really helping the conversation.

And I say that as someone who agrees, personally, that I'd rather the rule about faction dials didn't exist (but who acknowledges that the rule DOES exist, and who isn't all that upset about it).

The examples of abusive language he cites are quoted in that very post.

EDIT (in response to edit): It's not exactly completely hypothetical. I'd wager a lot of TOs will follow the official ruling. That doesn't make them "mini-Hitlers".