I think people are very much underestimating how much the large base affects maneuverability with asteroids in play.

The Defender won't be as bad, but after the Tie Advanced buff, I see no reason to ever take a Defender over the cheaper Advanced.

A Tempest with ATC and a SU has nearly identical stats to a Delta Defender for 4 points cheaper. Be my guest if you want to pay 4 points for the white K-turn. You lose the evade action to boot!

OK.

Because without the Engine Upgrade, the TIE Advanced will still fly like a fried egg.

Boosting is not better than barrel rolling. They both have their equal merits.Barrel rolling is a great way to block. Imo better than boosting

I'm not saying that barrel roll is useless, but that I think that if the defender had boost native, basically nobody would pay 4 points for a mod that added barrel roll. Obviously, the inverse isn't true, because people put EU on defenders reasonably often. Autothrusters only sweeten the deal.I'm not sold on the idea of defenders as blockers; I'd rather have 2.5 APs for that role.

I've used barrel rolling quite efficiently to dodge arcs or get a shot I wouldn't have had, or set up for next turn.Boost on a mid ps ship is nothing to write home about.

Both of these statements could apply to either boost or barrel roll.Ironically, it's possible that IG-88 would actually benefit *more* from native barrel roll than boost (in the same way the defender could really have used boost), since it's much easier for IG-88 to turn (bank while stressed, 3S loop, etc.), and with the large base, you get more movement than a small base.Nobody gets what they really wanted for Christmas!

I don't know anyone that uses EU on the defender it really does not need it, it's not a super interceptor and people trying to fly it like it is are just using it wrong.

The large base plus only having a forward arc will be a bigger disadvantages than people think.

The agressor gets the dogfighting dial at the same amount of points (for named pilots) and gets better stats, acions and upgrades. People who think they're going to get blocked all day can invest the one point for enhanced scopes if they're so afraid.

Nah, generic E-Wings are the next TIE Advanced.

I fail to see any ship with 3 attack dice as being "the next TIE Advanced".

The TIE Advanced was the TIE Advanced because it was a 20+ point 2 attack dice ship (which was also one of the reasons why the A-Wing needed assistance for so long).

The Defender won't be as bad, but after the Tie Advanced buff, I see no reason to ever take a Defender over the cheaper Advanced.

A Tempest with ATC and a SU has nearly identical stats to a Delta Defender for 4 points cheaper. Be my guest if you want to pay 4 points for the white K-turn. You lose the evade action to boot!

I totally agree with your statement, but the defender also has 3 agility and 3 attack. For 4 points, difference not too bad.

The Defender won't be as bad, but after the Tie Advanced buff, I see no reason to ever take a Defender over the cheaper Advanced.

A Tempest with ATC and a SU has nearly identical stats to a Delta Defender for 4 points cheaper. Be my guest if you want to pay 4 points for the white K-turn. You lose the evade action to boot!

OK.

Because without the Engine Upgrade, the TIE Advanced will still fly like a fried egg.

Exactly. Simply adding a Shield Upgrade doesn't give you the same ship as one with 1 higher shield - it also removes your modification slot. Defenders also have a cannon slot and, of course, a white K-Turn. I can easily see myself mixing both in a squad, although not until I've mixed up some TIE Advanced with some Autothruster Interceptors.

Ultimately, most people will probably roll along with the point of vew that the defender is a couple of points too expensive.

Taking that into accout, FFG has two options - either overprice each and every ship that comes after it by the same margin, so the defender doesn't feel so lonely sat on the shelf gathering dust, or they can acknowledge that there was a small flaw with their design for the ship and come back and fix it later. Witness the A, Advanced etc.

Comparing potentially the most overpriced ship to the bleeding edge releases doesn't make sense. Comparing dials, slots, points et al doesn't get you anywhere at all, because at the end of the day, the ships are in different factions, do different jobs, have access to different upgrades, and are therefore so distinct that a comparison between them is meaningless.

It's pitched as a super interceptor

Interesting, I must have missed that sales pitch.

It's pitched as a super interceptor

Interesting, I must have missed that sales pitch.

You're not the only one.

If anything, the Defender is a powerful, tough ship to hold the centre while other ships around it flank and arc dodge.

The Interceptor is a rapier.

The Defender is a mace.

Yes, the agressor can be set up to be super manuverable, so can other ships, but something that seems to get ignored in that discussion is the PS cap of 6. There are a lot of very manuverable ships that will be moving after all of those shennanigans are done. I think that rexler with an engine upgrade and an HLC might very well clean up on an agressor in a 1 on 1 fight, simply because of speed and always moving last. Of course, these conflicts do not occur in a vaccum, and there are always other ships on the board. It does seem that the defender might be slightly overcosted, but the last game I played I took 4 crits from rexler in one round.......ouch. hosed my decimator.

Sure it won't fly like a Lambda, but it still turns like a bus.

All green banks, white 1 and 2 turns, plus native boost "turns like a bus?"

What kind of Tokyo Drift public transit do they have where you live?!

Sure it won't fly like a Lambda, but it still turns like a bus.

All green banks, white 1 and 2 turns, plus native boost "turns like a bus?"

What kind of Tokyo Drift public transit do they have where you live?!

2 Bank 2 Furious

It may have been said already but don't forget we're talking a human pilot vs a droid, so in theory the droids ability to process data, react, do stuff is better than the soft and squidgy human sat in the Defender!

It's pitched as a super interceptor

Interesting, I must have missed that sales pitch.

You're not the only one.

If anything, the Defender is a powerful, tough ship to hold the centre while other ships around it flank and arc dodge.

Count me in this as well. I never saw a super interceptor pitch. Some one made a very eloquent post a few weeks back about how the defender couldn't be exactly what it was in tie fighter...it would break the game. I agree with that...and the defender is my all time favorite SW ship of all time. Making it the "super interceptor" so many Want it to be will leave the regular interceptor without a point...and then we will get "ideas" to "fix the tie interceptor" again.

It may have been said already but don't forget we're talking a human pilot vs a droid, so in theory the droids ability to process data, react, do stuff is better than the soft and squidgy human sat in the Defender!

Should be more susceptible to ions then...I mean even the pilot is mechanical...

Sure it won't fly like a Lambda, but it still turns like a bus.

All green banks, white 1 and 2 turns, plus native boost "turns like a bus?"

What kind of Tokyo Drift public transit do they have where you live?!

It's a large based ship which means there is more movement when it turns regardless of the move it takes. It's even more pronounced when boost is involved. Small based ships make MUCH tighter turns than large based ships.

So I guess I'm the only one who read the previews, and descriptions where they go on about how much better and more maneuverable this was supposed to be than existing TIEs? It's in both ffg and existing lore.

So I guess I'm the only one who read the previews, and descriptions where they go on about how much better and more maneuverable this was supposed to be than existing TIEs? It's in both ffg and existing lore.

Pretty sure this is understood, it's more that people seem to be upset about the similar costs on a strictly superior stat-line (same red, same green, more hull, more shield) and cite the dial as another superior quality.

The white 4k has always been cited as the Defender's defining strength (nothing in X-wing can replicate it without adrenaline rush...once) and it's something that's more difficult to factor in (far more than just a basic stat-line) so I'm not sure the Aggressor's dial can be defined as strictly superior, especially given the larger, clunkier base.

Then again, I also have no idea how much value to place in the thing Given the choice between an ion Delta or a bare naked Bounty Hunter, I always reach for the more easily understood and reliable firespray.

Might be time to change that, though.

So I guess I'm the only one who read the previews, and descriptions where they go on about how much better and more maneuverable this was supposed to be than existing TIEs? It's in both ffg and existing lore.

Perhaps you missed my point about making the tie int obsolete?

Hey guys, would anyone please explain the reasoning behind Vessery/Rexlar@ 35/37 pts and the IG-88@36 points?

For virtually the same cost Agressor's get:

- one more hull

- one more shield

- evade action

- system upgrade slot

- much better pilot abilities (that stack)

- a far better dial. I mean like spectularly better.

- boost over barrel roll (debatable, but i think most prefer boost)

- the ability to equip autothrusters

- illicit upgrade and bomb slots (just as an added bonus)

And the defender has what.,..a white 4k turn?

Sounds about right lol-

100% Agree!!!

They basically took the original Tie Defender from the computer game and are telling us its an IG-something. Every single little thing on the IG could easily be placed on an original Tie Defender.

The people working on this game have shown many times that they know what they are doing, so if this is how they see the Star Wars universe then this is how it is going to be in the context of this game.

One tactic, although cheesy, could be an ig2000 fortress using advanced sensors, ptl and the green 1-banks to bump 2 ig2000s off one another, and still have good action economy. Could be a handy counter to phantom lists. It is certainly something defenders can't do.

An advanced sensor IG-2000s pretty much has a white K-turn or Segnor turn. Yeah you end the maneuver stressed, but no big deal you have 9 FREAKING GREEN MANEUVERS!!!

The big problem that the Defender has right now is a lack of any green besides the straights, combined with prohibitive reds on the short turns. Compare that to the Aggressor with its plethora of greens and more interesting red options, along with both a systems slot and native boost, and you start to see why people wonder why the Defender got the dial it did.

As for fixes, I'm a proponent of making the Defender the premier imperial cannon ship. Give it a modification, Integrated Cannons, that allows you to reduce the cost of any cannon upgrades by 3 points to a minimum of 0. That makes the integral Ion cannon a free upgrade, and the HLC only 4 points instead of 7. It comes at a steep opportunity cost of the valuable module slot. In addition, add a cannon upgrade, TIE/ad x7, that costs -2 points.

Since the relative dials of the two ships are set in stone at this point, and FFG is not going to be making new dials for any old ships, we have to live with the Defender's lack of sustained agility (I say sustained here because it does have great maneuvers, its just that many of the best are red, plus it lacks native boost), and the Aggressor will always have what may end up being the best dial in the game. The fact that the Aggressor is priced very aggressively compared to the Defender will simply have to be bourne until FFG puts out some kind of update to rectify the situation (assuming they ever do).

I like the -3 cannon cost idea. The defender is supposed to come native with Ions anyway. Maybe it'll never happen, but I like it.

One tactic, although cheesy, could be an ig2000 fortress using advanced sensors, ptl and the green 1-banks to bump 2 ig2000s off one another, and still have good action economy. Could be a handy counter to phantom lists. It is certainly something defenders can't do.