Other than the Falcons. There is no ship yet that costs over 40+ to field.

The Decimator. .

But I agree with the rest of your post. Apart from the fact that Scum does have a ship with a rear arc, they have the Firespray. .

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

Not if they're using Defenders they can't

Sure they can. Maybe not if you go all Defender, but a single Defender and a support/escort ship or two? Or two Delta's?

I'm sure, if properly flown, this list can handle such scum as two IG-2000's.

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Captain Yorr (24)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 99

You know where they are going so you can adjust/arc dodge if needed. Yorr takes away the stress of the hard turns and you have the choice of either stressing them out and denying them their stunt moves, making them more predictable or going for straight damage.

That would be an interesting game to see!

Other than the Falcons. There is no ship yet that costs over 40+ to field.

The Decimator. .

But I agree with the rest of your post. Apart from the fact that Scum does have a ship with a rear arc, they have the Firespray. .

Ok I'm going to bed now

Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about anymore lol

The aggressor has better dial, better upgrades, better manueverability, better action bar, better stats, and pretty much better everything.

With its large base and all, it will outfly your defenders, eat them, chew them, and spit them back at you. All of this while you are still wondering how could that have happened to your wonderful invincible small based ship that is able to white K-turn.

Boosting is not better than barrel rolling. They both have their equal merits.

Barrel rolling is a great way to block. Imo better than boosting

I'm not saying that barrel roll is useless, but that I think that if the defender had boost native, basically nobody would pay 4 points for a mod that added barrel roll. Obviously, the inverse isn't true, because people put EU on defenders reasonably often. Autothrusters only sweeten the deal.

I'm not sold on the idea of defenders as blockers; I'd rather have 2.5 APs for that role.

I've used barrel rolling quite efficiently to dodge arcs or get a shot I wouldn't have had, or set up for next turn.

Boost on a mid ps ship is nothing to write home about.

Both of these statements could apply to either boost or barrel roll.

Ironically, it's possible that IG-88 would actually benefit *more* from native barrel roll than boost (in the same way the defender could really have used boost), since it's much easier for IG-88 to turn (bank while stressed, 3S loop, etc.), and with the large base, you get more movement than a small base.

Nobody gets what they really wanted for Christmas!

The aggressor has better dial, better upgrades, better manueverability, better action bar, better stats, and pretty much better everything.

With its large base and all, it will outfly your defenders, eat them, chew them, and spit them back at you. All of this while you are still wondering how could that have happened to your wonderful invincible small based ship that is able to white K-turn.

You seem to know an awful lot about a ship no one here has flown yet and how it will perform...

Please enlighten us further...I am sure you have more than theory to back this up? :rolls eyes:

No one ever said the Defender was invincible. Putting words into other peoples mouths doesnt help your argument...Ill admit this Agressor looks scary on paper...but Vorpal Sword brought up some **** good points in one of the sister threads to this one. All we have at this point in time is theory though. I dont doubt this will be a decent if not good ship...but with little to no experience and data to compare all we have is theory crafting now...which makes your absolute statement laughable. Might you end up being right? Maybe...but until we have actual data to go off of when these two ships face off Ill hold my tongue.

Looking at the clientel here, Im not surprised so many here continue to write off the Defender...it was written off by many here long before it ever came out...and will more than likely continue to be until people get the "shielded interceptor" they incorrectly think it should be.

Looking at the clientel here, Im not surprised so many here continue to write off the Defender...it was written off by many here long before it ever came out...and will more than likely continue to be until people get the "shielded interceptor" they incorrectly think it should be.

I enjoy playing the Defender but it's got its share of issues. What are all of the folks that think that it is underpowered for what it costs doing wrong?

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

Not if they're using Defenders they can't

Sure they can. Maybe not if you go all Defender, but a single Defender and a support/escort ship or two? Or two Delta's?

I'm sure, if properly flown, this list can handle such scum as two IG-2000's.

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Captain Yorr (24)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 99

You know where they are going so you can adjust/arc dodge if needed. Yorr takes away the stress of the hard turns and you have the choice of either stressing them out and denying them their stunt moves, making them more predictable or going for straight damage.

You're spending as much on those Deltas as you'd spend on a base IG-2000.

Intel Agent isn't going to give you much useful information when up against of pair of IG-2000s with Advanced Sensors if one of them is IG-88D. Those ships could end up in a lot of places.

I stole the image from here: http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2014/10/06/ig-88d-s-loop-explored/

Add stay on target and that 3 can be left/right bank 3, straight 3 or change the S-loop/3-turn S-loop to a left orientation as well

Make a picture of all those options...

Looking at the clientel here, Im not surprised so many here continue to write off the Defender...it was written off by many here long before it ever came out...and will more than likely continue to be until people get the "shielded interceptor" they incorrectly think it should be.

I enjoy playing the Defender but it's got its share of issues. What are all of the folks that think that it is underpowered for what it costs doing wrong?

I stated it already. The general consensus, as I have seen it, wants it to fly like an interceptor...giving it boost so they can throw ptl on it and buzz around like a tie interceptor. No one can accurately cost the white K turn...but people are more than willing to discount it.

I have seen a few good ideas in a few threads...I never chimed in because I didn't really have anything to add. But the majority of "fixes" I saw for the defender that were gaining the most traction involved turning it into an interceptor with Shields which isn't something I can get behind...

The aggressor has better dial, better upgrades, better manueverability, better action bar, better stats, and pretty much better everything.

With its large base and all, it will outfly your defenders, eat them, chew them, and spit them back at you. All of this while you are still wondering how could that have happened to your wonderful invincible small based ship that is able to white K-turn.

You seem to know an awful lot about a ship no one here has flown yet and how it will perform...

Please enlighten us further...I am sure you have more than theory to back this up? :rolls eyes:

No one ever said the Defender was invincible. Putting words into other peoples mouths doesnt help your argument...Ill admit this Agressor looks scary on paper...but Vorpal Sword brought up some **** good points in one of the sister threads to this one. All we have at this point in time is theory though. I dont doubt this will be a decent if not good ship...but with little to no experience and data to compare all we have is theory crafting now...which makes your absolute statement laughable. Might you end up being right? Maybe...but until we have actual data to go off of when these two ships face off Ill hold my tongue.

Looking at the clientel here, Im not surprised so many here continue to write off the Defender...it was written off by many here long before it ever came out...and will more than likely continue to be until people get the "shielded interceptor" they incorrectly think it should be.

I wasn't really trying to make an argument.... more like an impression.

Call it a premonition if you wish.

If I had to make an argument, It would be that given their capabilities and potential, the involved ships are not priced fair. The Defender should be cheaper, or the Agressor more expensive.

I'll even dare to say that I suspect the real reason behind this is that when designing the agressor, the developers had in mind making a 2-aggressor-squad viable for tournament format. That's why it ended as a 'hive-mind-supership', because 2 of them would have to hold on its own against current popular meta lists. However, when designing the Defender, that kind viability wasn't a concern, or directly the defender wasn't intented to work like that... Probably, the devs were thinking more about the line of a lone defender + miniswarm lists.

Edit: Also, you can't really blame those people for expecting a 'shielded interceptor' because in the Star Wars lore, the Defender was in fact a... shielded interceptor, tah dah!. That said, don't get me wrong. I understand what FFG tried to do with the Defender, and I do really appreciate it, honestly. However, I'm still on the opinion that they could have done better... or at least, cheaper.

The aggressor has better dial, better upgrades, better manueverability, better action bar, better stats, and pretty much better everything.

With its large base and all, it will outfly your defenders, eat them, chew them, and spit them back at you. All of this while you are still wondering how could that have happened to your wonderful invincible small based ship that is able to white K-turn.

You seem to know an awful lot about a ship no one here has flown yet and how it will perform...

Please enlighten us further...I am sure you have more than theory to back this up? :rolls eyes:

No one ever said the Defender was invincible. Putting words into other peoples mouths doesnt help your argument...Ill admit this Agressor looks scary on paper...but Vorpal Sword brought up some **** good points in one of the sister threads to this one. All we have at this point in time is theory though. I dont doubt this will be a decent if not good ship...but with little to no experience and data to compare all we have is theory crafting now...which makes your absolute statement laughable. Might you end up being right? Maybe...but until we have actual data to go off of when these two ships face off Ill hold my tongue.

Looking at the clientel here, Im not surprised so many here continue to write off the Defender...it was written off by many here long before it ever came out...and will more than likely continue to be until people get the "shielded interceptor" they incorrectly think it should be.

I wasn't really trying to make an argument.... more like an impression.

Call it a premonition if you wish.

If I had to make an argument, It would be that given their capabilities and potential, the involved ships are not priced fair. The Defender should be cheaper, or the Agressor more expensive.

I'll even dare to say that I suspect the real reason behind this is that when designing the agressor, the developers had in mind making a 2-aggressor-squad viable for tournament format. That's why it ended as a 'hive-mind-supership', because 2 of them would have to hold on its own against current popular meta lists. However, when designing the Defender, that kind viability wasn't a concern, or directly the defender wasn't intented to work like that... Probably, the devs were thinking more about the line of a lone defender + miniswarm lists.

I would argue that, as currently constructed, the Defender has no clearly defined role. It's so expensive that it wants to be the centerpiece of your list, yet it only has 3h/3s and no evade action, meaning it goes down fairly quick under concentrated fire. So it doesn't excel in that role. It's not a flanker due to the limited dial (Hard reds, only green straights) and other ships are far better at doing so + these will get autothrusters. So it doesnt like that role either.

The white 4k would suggest that it's made for jousting - but guess what, when playing against the defender people quickly adjusted to the white 4k and most players will just see that coming from a mile away and/or they have cheap ships to block. Sure if you're running 4X-Wings a white 4k might seem great, but who does that anymore...so yeah,i really don't see where the Defender fits in right now.

Ironically the Agressor further weakens the white 4k because of Segnor loop, it's another ship (on top of virtually every turret ship) that doesn't really care if you can white 4k because he can still outmaneuver you.

2 Aggressors vs 3 Defenders at 100 points. Who wins? There's only one way to find out...

..........FIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!

Makes you really scratch your head doesn't it?

People thought this thread was crazy: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/129000-the-defender-will-be-the-next-tie-advanced/?hl=%2Bdefender+%2Badvanced

But it will be true.

Nah, generic E-Wings are the next TIE Advanced.

Nah, generic E-Wings are the next TIE Advanced.

I fail to see any ship with 3 attack dice as being "the next TIE Advanced".

The TIE Advanced was the TIE Advanced because it was a 20+ point 2 attack dice ship (which was also one of the reasons why the A-Wing needed assistance for so long).

I fail to see any ship with 3 attack dice as being "the next TIE Advanced".

The TIE Advanced was the TIE Advanced because it was a 20+ point 2 attack dice ship (which was also one of the reasons why the A-Wing needed assistance for so long).

Surely the problem was (with the exception of Vader) it was a ship that nobody ever had a reason to take. Isn't the generic E-Wing already in that situation?

Boosting is not better than barrel rolling. They both have their equal merits.Barrel rolling is a great way to block. Imo better than boosting

I'm not saying that barrel roll is useless, but that I think that if the defender had boost native, basically nobody would pay 4 points for a mod that added barrel roll. Obviously, the inverse isn't true, because people put EU on defenders reasonably often. Autothrusters only sweeten the deal.I'm not sold on the idea of defenders as blockers; I'd rather have 2.5 APs for that role.

I've used barrel rolling quite efficiently to dodge arcs or get a shot I wouldn't have had, or set up for next turn.Boost on a mid ps ship is nothing to write home about.

Both of these statements could apply to either boost or barrel roll.Ironically, it's possible that IG-88 would actually benefit *more* from native barrel roll than boost (in the same way the defender could really have used boost), since it's much easier for IG-88 to turn (bank while stressed, 3S loop, etc.), and with the large base, you get more movement than a small base.Nobody gets what they really wanted for Christmas!

I don't know anyone that uses EU on the defender it really does not need it, it's not a super interceptor and people trying to fly it like it is are just using it wrong.

The large base plus only having a forward arc will be a bigger disadvantages than people think.

The large base plus only having a forward arc will be a bigger disadvantages than people think.

Not really,

That may be true if the aggressor were similar in capabilities to the other large base ships, but FFG gave it all the tools to overcome those disadvantages.

Consider the fact that a Lambda with EU, even with its crippled dial and without EPT, is capable of fighting back decently. Now, compare the Agressor to the Lambda...

First off, to really make them shine you need two IG-2000's

This part, after a night's worth of brainstorming and toying around in my head, I'd like to retract.

The large base plus only having a forward arc will be a bigger disadvantages than people think.

Not really,

That may be true if the aggressor were similar in capabilities to the other large base ships, but FFG gave it all the tools to overcome those disadvantages.

Consider the fact that a Lambda with EU, even with its crippled dial and without EPT, is capable of fighting back decently. Now, compare the Agressor to the Lambda...

This. People acting like this ship is anything like a Lambda shuttle when it has one of the best dials in the game (and S-loop and boost and k-turn) is hilarious. It won't fly like a Lambda at all.

I don't recall seeing anyone react as if the IG2000 was like the Lambda. I do, however, see a ton of over reactions on here.

Just for fun I expanded on a image made before.

The IG-88D with adv. sensors and stay on target, selecting a 3 manuever can move in all these directions.

And in lots of these moves (those marked with "D") you may change the direction you are facing as well.

That's just insane

The large base plus only having a forward arc will be a bigger disadvantages than people think.

Not really,

That may be true if the aggressor were similar in capabilities to the other large base ships, but FFG gave it all the tools to overcome those disadvantages.

Consider the fact that a Lambda with EU, even with its crippled dial and without EPT, is capable of fighting back decently. Now, compare the Agressor to the Lambda...

This. People acting like this ship is anything like a Lambda shuttle when it has one of the best dials in the game (and S-loop and boost and k-turn) is hilarious. It won't fly like a Lambda at all.

Sure it won't fly like a Lambda, but it still turns like a bus. The k-turn and S-loops help a lot with that, but they are red. And sure, it does have a lot of green moves, but they all put it in the same general area. Then if you're boosting, you're not focusing, target locking or evading unless you run PTL. Also, PS6 without a turret is quite a liability. Not to mention that the Aggressor will HATE control lists.

It is a good ship, but it also has some fairly large drawbacks. It's going to have a lot of trouble with PS6+ positional ships and swarms. I think it's pretty fairly priced at 36 points especially considering that everyone will be running upgrades on this.

Compared to the Defender, I still think that Vessery and possibly Brath are fairly priced. Delta and Onyx have always been overpriced but I don't mind paying 33pts for a Delta w/ Ion. They're different ships with different roles in different factions. Even with the red turns, the Defender turns better. The Defender can also slow roll (which is really handy with a cannon) which the Aggressor can't do.

The Aggressor is a good ship that has some big pros and big cons. I think it's pretty balanced for the price.

The Defender does what it does well too (especially Vessery). I kinda don't have a problem with the price difference.

The interesting thing about that though is that a single ship can occupy a space that blocks every Advanced Sensors boost position, so anything less than PS6 has a chance to make it move like a regular ship.

Having flown plenty of Firesrays with cannons, I think people are overestimating how easy it is for a Large ship to dog fight. Sure, it doesn't have the 1 turn or as many greens. But that wasn't exactly the issue. Keeping a ship in your front arc can be difficult, there is a reason that I still had to take shots from the rear arc. And the S-loops are not some insurance, even with Iggy D. If you pick the wrong the direction, you are in trouble if the opponent went in the opposite direction you were anticipating.

The Aggressor is a good ship. But so is the Defender. Both are going to require you to fly it a bit differently than the standard ship.

Nah, generic E-Wings are the next TIE Advanced.

I fail to see any ship with 3 attack dice as being "the next TIE Advanced".

The TIE Advanced was the TIE Advanced because it was a 20+ point 2 attack dice ship (which was also one of the reasons why the A-Wing needed assistance for so long).

The Defender won't be as bad, but after the Tie Advanced buff, I see no reason to ever take a Defender over the cheaper Advanced.

A Tempest with ATC and a SU has nearly identical stats to a Delta Defender for 4 points cheaper. Be my guest if you want to pay 4 points for the white K-turn. You lose the evade action to boot!