Hey guys, would anyone please explain the reasoning behind Vessery/Rexlar@ 35/37 pts and the IG-88@36 points?

For virtually the same cost Agressor's get:

- one more hull

- one more shield

- evade action

- system upgrade slot

- much better pilot abilities (that stack)

- a far better dial. I mean like spectularly better.

- boost over barrel roll (debatable, but i think most prefer boost)

- the ability to equip autothrusters

- illicit upgrade and bomb slots (just as an added bonus)

And the defender has what.,..a white 4k turn?

Sounds about right lol-

Don't underestimate how much that Large base affects the cost and effectiveness.

I expect it's mostly the large base, but don't underestimate the White K-turn either. It's a big part of the Defender's cost, and probably why it feels too expensive. They were very conservative with that one, I think (and agree with, honestly).

Don't underestimate how much that Large base affects the cost and effectiveness.

True, but worth a Hull Upgrade (3), Engine Upgrade (4), Shield Upgrade (4), a dial that annihilates it, and better upgrade options? Is that large base really 11-15 points of disadvantage, when it can also be considered an advantage (when using Boost and/or Barrel Roll, for example)? IG-2K makes mincemeat of the Defender and the Firespray for its points (and I enjoy both of those ships, especially the Firespray).

Yes. When there was a reasonable following of a formula, it was reasoned that a Large base is roughly a 10 pt discount. And it in no way makes mincemeat of the Firespray. You are putting way too much value on the agility. The Firespray's rear arc gives it an edge. And yes, the large base moves the ship further. But, it is also easier to block.

Yes, the dial is good. But, it makes the ship much, much faster than the Defender. Yes, the white K-turn is important, but having the 1 banks and turns, even if red, makes the Defender a tougher jouster.

Makes you really scratch your head doesn't it?

People thought this thread was crazy: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/129000-the-defender-will-be-the-next-tie-advanced/?hl=%2Bdefender+%2Badvanced

But it will be true.

People need to make up their mind. Either the X-wing or the Defender is the next "Advanced". And guess what, both ships are still far better off than the Advanced was, and this is someone who enjoys Vader before the Advanced Targeting Computer. Something will always be the best, and something will always be the worst. As long as the gap is lessened, the game will be in a good spot.

This really should have been questioned at the start of wave 4 with the phantom coming out with the defender

hindsight's a *****

IG-2K makes mincemeat of the Defender and the Firespray for its points

Don't be so proud of this technological terror you've constructed. First off, to really make them shine you need two IG-2000's and that's your entire list, whereas the Empire can field larger lists, suitable for more diverse roles.

A small base easily is worth a hull and shield point. What you can't shoot at you can't hit. No matter how many cannon you can bring to bear.

Having 6 in terms of pilot skill accross the board is a also a major thing to consider. Think about it; even with veteran instinct, Soontir with push the limit will always maneuver last, giving him a boost and barrel roll to move out of arc or get into it. Both named phantoms can also outmaneuver an IG-2000.

All the power and evade in the world won't matter if you can't shoot. Many Outriders fell learning the lesson that "the donus is not that small when your opponent can maneuver last".

Having 6 in terms of pilot skill accross the board is a also a major thing to consider. Think about it; even with veteran instinct, Soontir with push the limit will always maneuver last, giving him a boost and barrel roll to move out of arc or get into it. Both named phantoms can also outmaneuver an IG-2000.

All the power and evade in the world won't matter if you can't shoot. Many Outriders fell learning the lesson that "the donus is not that small when your opponent can maneuver last".

Not just Soontir, but the twin meta terrors of Whisper and Fat Han as well

As for the Aggressor versus the Firespray, what sets them apart in Scum is that Scum actually has the very interesting security droid (that, unlike Night Beast, triggers even when stressed because it acquires a target-lock, it does not give a free action) that the Aggressor has no access to. The Aggressor does have systems and all the awesomeness that entails, just pointing out that the crew slot in Scum is probably going to be worth more than it in other factions (mainly because the droid opens up essentially 3 actions with PTL, except the TL is action-independent and therefore cannot be blocked by obstructions or bumps etc, like a mini-FCS and advanced sensors rolled in one)

Apart from that, it's an improved dial, boost, and 1 agility set against 2 hull and a rear arc (and all the maneuvers that it opens up).

As powerful as I believe the Aggressor to be, I believe it is priced fairly in line with the firespray

The Defender was never something I was much of a fan of, but the Firespray I know to be a powerhouse beyond its seemingly average stats

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

Not if they're using Defenders they can't

Sure they can. Maybe not if you go all Defender, but a single Defender and a support/escort ship or two? Or two Delta's?

I'm sure, if properly flown, this list can handle such scum as two IG-2000's.

You know where they are going so you can adjust/arc dodge if needed. Yorr takes away the stress of the hard turns and you have the choice of either stressing them out and denying them their stunt moves, making them more predictable or going for straight damage.

I'd been slowly writing up basically the same post all day.

Here's how I see the comparison breaking down between Vessery and IG-88B (and to be clear, I really like the defender, V in particular):

Advantage: Vessery

- Base size (small bases are harder to block, etc.)

- Cost (35pts vs. 36pts)

Advantage: No Obvious Answer

- K-turn options (white 4K vs. red 4K+3S with a mostly-green dial)

Advantage: IG-88B

- Rest of the dial (shedding stress in a defender isn't pleasant)

- Actions (boost is better than barrel roll, esp. with autothrusters available, plus evade)

- Upgrade slots (system slot in particular, but illicits are hot too)

- Stat line (the extra HU+SU probably isn't actually worth 7 points, but it's still flat-out better)

- Pilot skill (Vessery gets free TLs, which is sorta like FCS, vs. Gunner, so 2pts vs. 5pts)

The last two alone open up a ~10 point differential in upgrades between the two. Even if you say that the large base is a 10pt penalty (and I'm not convinced, given how it interacts with the native boost), then the defender's 1pt advantage is still surpassed by the non-K dial, actions, and upgrade slots.

I don't get it.

I've always thought the Defender should of had the boost action. This made the most sense based on what I know of the ship. If it had this action I doubt we would be really talking about the ship being over costed or how much weaker it is in comparison to The Aggressor.

I'm not sure I understand the boost v barrel-roll straight comparison (i.e, how one is "better")

the two actions do completely different things and carry very different implications.

Boost gains distance and can change facing, making it ideal for the dodging arcs on enemies on the side of your ship or for correcting your firing arc by another 45 degrees if you choose to bank

Barrel-roll is a lateral move that never changes your facing.

Personally, I found barrel-roll to be far more useful for arc dodging while still having a shot (especially at close range) and just in general (advanced sensor B-wings dodging obstructions and preforming unexpected manuevers or rolling before a hard 1 to essentially pivot on the spot, getting Ties into funny positions where they could block etc).

Boosts I found were more useful for closing distances and lining up arcs on very fast ships (often essential versus Dash). I found it to be a more offense orientated action unless you were packing a turret, in which case you could scoot away without worry about how your facing changes.

Personally, because of the IGs' PS 6 and single arc, I don't think the boost will be nearly as useful as it is on something like Fat Han (can be abused to no end because of the 360 arc not arcing about how its facing changes) or Soontir (often moves last and can course correct to get shots on less skilled pilots).

In combination with Advanced Sensors, though, the boost will allow experienced players to set up some rather amazing red maneuvers. I do stress experience, though, since the player will need to both predict how to angle the arc for where the opponent will end up and pull it off without smacking into something. It's going to make for some Echo tier shenanigans.

People need to make up their mind. Either the X-wing or the Defender is the next "Advanced". And guess what, both ships are still far better off than the Advanced was, and this is someone who enjoys Vader before the Advanced Targeting Computer. Something will always be the best, and something will always be the worst. As long as the gap is lessened, the game will be in a good spot.

With all the min maxing there will always be a piece that is under used. Take the bishop in chess for example. Most people use Queens and Rooks, Some may even use knights. Pawns can become queens. So in other words the bishiop is the most overcosted (just under a queen) for its place among the other pieces.

As for the defender I think many people are underestimating the value of that white K-turn. You can flip around when stressed. If your maneuver is blocked no worries you don't gain a stress token and can attempt it later. A red s-loop that is blocked becomes a red bank-turn at the end. And will have to use a green maneuver to clear stress in order to attempt it again.

The aggressor is a really nice ship let there be no doubt but it's a fighter on a large base not a large ship.

Where the defender can slip into tight gaps while doing a k turn and getting its action the aggressor can't, it's k turn will take it far out of the action, the s loops could just as easily leave you in a bad position against ships with a barrel roll.

If you take two even with three agility sixteen hit points are not that hard to get through its only the same as two b-wings.

Just like the firespray it's a different beast from the defender and functions very differently in role.

The Agressor's Dial is everything the Defender's dial should have been, and for the same price (Named pilots VS named pilots) the Agressor gets the better dial, better upgrades, better actions, better stats, and the Defender gets a smaller base, and to fly with Imperials.

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

Not if they're using Defenders they can't

Sure they can. Maybe not if you go all Defender, but a single Defender and a support/escort ship or two? Or two Delta's?

I'm sure, if properly flown, this list can handle such scum as two IG-2000's.

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Captain Yorr (24)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 99

You know where they are going so you can adjust/arc dodge if needed. Yorr takes away the stress of the hard turns and you have the choice of either stressing them out and denying them their stunt moves, making them more predictable or going for straight damage.

If you insist on flying 2 IG-88s, well, different story.

But no one said that IG-88 is only good with the IG-2000.

whereas the Empire can field larger lists

Not if they're using Defenders they can't

Sure they can. Maybe not if you go all Defender, but a single Defender and a support/escort ship or two? Or two Delta's?

I'm sure, if properly flown, this list can handle such scum as two IG-2000's.

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Captain Yorr (24)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 99

You know where they are going so you can adjust/arc dodge if needed. Yorr takes away the stress of the hard turns and you have the choice of either stressing them out and denying them their stunt moves, making them more predictable or going for straight damage.

You're spending as much on those Deltas as you'd spend on a base IG-2000.

Intel Agent isn't going to give you much useful information when up against of pair of IG-2000s with Advanced Sensors if one of them is IG-88D. Those ships could end up in a lot of places.

I stole the image from here: http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2014/10/06/ig-88d-s-loop-explored/

For 72 points, I can take a super nasty Vader + super nasty Fel, both of whom will boost and barel roll after a pair of Aggressors. I feel good about my ability to not be in arc of those Aggressors.

I love the design of the IG-88, and think they're a well though out, interesting departure from what we're used to seeing on a Large ship. But don't make the mistake of thinking they don't have some exploitable space baked right in.

Now: I do think the Defender should be 2pts less than t actually is. But a mistake in pricing the Defender is no reason to repeat that mistake in pricing the Aggressor.

IG-88 can have just as much support as an imperial list that features one Defender.

If you insist on flying 2 IG-88s, well, different story.

But no one said that IG-88 is only good with the IG-2000.

Oh, absolutely. Though Scum have even more trouble working together than Imperials.

I can see me pairing any IG-88 with a Mandalorian Mercenary for instance.

You're spending as much on those Deltas as you'd spend on a base IG-2000.

Intel Agent isn't going to give you much useful information when up against of pair of IG-2000s with Advanced Sensors if one of them is IG-88D. Those ships could end up in a lot of places.

[snip image]

I stole the image from here: http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2014/10/06/ig-88d-s-loop-explored/

a single IG88 with Adv Sensors, EI and Daredevil can end up in even more spaces .

But it'll give you some idea. The list wasn't meant to be the definitive counter, it was meant to illustrate the point that the Defender shouldn't be so easily written off.

Hey guys, would anyone please explain the reasoning behind Vessery/Rexlar@ 35/37 pts and the IG-88@36 points?

For virtually the same cost Agressor's get:

- one more hull

- one more shield

- evade action

- system upgrade slot

- much better pilot abilities (that stack)

- a far better dial. I mean like spectularly better.

- boost over barrel roll (debatable, but i think most prefer boost)

- the ability to equip autothrusters

- illicit upgrade and bomb slots (just as an added bonus)

And the defender has what.,..a white 4k turn?

Sounds about right lol-

The named pilots have a pretty good ability.

It does have that white kturn

It is not as easy to block.

It does not require a mass ton of upgrades to be useful.

One defender is good enough in a solid list.

Take a look at the upgrades on the aggressor.

If you loaded one fully that be a lot of points.

The ship is ps6 so that boost option isn't going to do it many favors, since lots of others can move afterwards.

Boosting is not better than barrel rolling. They both have their equal merits.

I've used barrel rolling quite efficiently to dodge arcs or get a shot I wouldn't have had, or set up for next turn.

Barrel rolling is a great way to block. Imo better than boosting

Boost on a mid ps ship is nothing to write home about.

If you decide to use the title you in a two ship list, and once one dies there goes half its strength

Don't know how well it would do vs a tie swarm.

I don't think anyone here are game designers so let's not pretend we know what we are talk about.

Not everything can be perfect, but this game is pretty close

Plus ffg is pretty good beefing up ships that they see fit.

Thank the Lord almighty they don't do everything that everyone here suggests. We'd have a broken one sided game Imo.

Other than the Falcons and Decimators. There is no ship yet that costs over 40+ to field.

I don't think the aggressor should cost more than what it does.

Looks fine to me.

Side note

The scum don't have any ships yet that have a turret as their primary.

And

They don't have any ships that can do a white kturn, which is essentially a rear arc.

Unlike the Firespray with a hlc, once your in the rear arc no more worries of the hlc.

The defender on the other hand is quite scary with a hlc in the right hands

Edit

Thanks Dagonet

I remembered and edited post, but you beat me to it