Look at the wording on the ST-321 title:

"When acquiring a target lock, you may lock onto any enemy ship in the play area."

If a ship ceases to be either a friendly or enemy ship upon destruction, why did they include " in the play area"?

To make it clear that it could stretch past the Range 3 band.

I would say the damaged IG-88 loses his ability and any EPT, but as the IG-2000 is a title, the Injured Pilot card would only strip his ability leaving him able to use others abilities only.

Does the undamaged IG-88 also lose access to his ability?

I would say he would. The card say all players ignore your ability , so an undamaged IG-88 would no longer have access to the damaged IG-88's ability.

God forbid common sense ever enters into it...

Well to be completely fair... RAW and Common Sense can quite often not have anything to do with each other. I've seen rules that made zero sense but was informed by the game Dev that is how it's intended to work. I don't mean zero sense in the "why would you do a k-turn in space" way. I mean within the game setting, in this case WWII a rule that is completely and utterly counter to any sort of rational thought that it boggled the mind.

It was a rule in Flames of War that you could lose your choice of targets with different weapons depending on the range. So you have a Sherman tank and you want to shoot a German 15cm artillery piece, but the German CO is within X inches of it, the Tank can't shoot at the German gun with it's main weapon, rather has to shoot at the CO, and can only use it's MG's to shoot at the gun.

This is a rule that makes no sense, and is worse because it's based on real life events. But the game dev told us on their form point blank that the rules didn't have to make sense because how they're written trumps common sense or in this case, basic tactics.

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well.

The title says you have the pilot of abilities of the other IG's, so if you lose your pilot abilities you'd lose all of them.

Look at the wording on the ST-321 title:

"When acquiring a target lock, you may lock onto any enemy ship in the play area."

If a ship ceases to be either a friendly or enemy ship upon destruction, why did they include " in the play area"?

Probably because the card needed to explicitly override the range limitation. They could equally have gone with "at any range" and gotten the same effect. You're trying to create a reasoning for something because it's convenient, when there's absolutely no evidence that it means anything much at all.

It might have just been for clarity. It might have been to prevent some idiot from forcing you to lock the Captain Kagi at the next table over. It might just be bad ability authoring - there's far more evidence to support sloppy authoring than there is this being some sort of implicit rule that friendly ships still count.

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well. There is a gray area in these interactions and I would not be so quick to say I know how FFG will rule on these. Does the injured Pilot card take the ability from both IG-88s? does the ship with the damage card retain the other ability from the title?

This is equally easy. The title gives you the ability of other ships. Injured Pilot removes the ability, so there's nothing to transfer.

There really isn't any gray area here.

So which of the following would be true:

A. The IG-2000 with the Injured Pilot loses both his pilot ability and the ability he received through the title. The other IG-2000 loses nothing.

B. The IG-2000 with the Injured Pilot loses both his pilot ability and the ability he received through the title. The other IG-2000 loses the ability he gained through the title.

C. The IG-2000 with the Injured Pilot loses only his pilot ability and retains the ability gained through the title. The other IG-2000 loses nothing.

D. The IG-2000 with the Injured Pilot loses only his pilot ability and retains the ability gained through the title. The other IG-2000 loses the ability he gained through the title.

D. The IG-2000 with the Injured Pilot loses only his pilot ability and retains the ability gained through the title. The other IG-2000 loses the ability he gained through the title.

This.

As I said initially, if one ship loses the ability, there's nothing to transfer. On the other side, as Parravon pointed out, the ability is gained through a title, not an EPT, and not a ship ability, and therefore unaffected.

Correction: Switching my answer to B It looks like the wording does make it a gained pilot ability, rather than an ability on the title. So if A takes the hit, he loses both his innate and any gained ones. B will lose A's ability, because it's actively copying, and there's now nothing to copy.

Edit: I need to rethink this...

Look at the wording on the ST-321 title:

"When acquiring a target lock, you may lock onto any enemy ship in the play area."

If a ship ceases to be either a friendly or enemy ship upon destruction, why did they include " in the play area"?

You're trying to create a reasoning for something because it's convenient, when there's absolutely no evidence that it means anything much at all.

I'm looking for some shred of evidence that a destroyed ship is not a friendly ship and all I'm getting is "it's common sense". The ST-321 card is the only other card I have been able to find that does not have a range requirement to it. The wording of the card indicates that there is a possibility for ships to remain enemy or friendly even after being destroyed. From what I've seen in this discussion, right now it is the only piece of evidence that supports a particular interpretation over the other.

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well. There is a gray area in these interactions and I would not be so quick to say I know how FFG will rule on these. Does the injured Pilot card take the ability from both IG-88s? does the ship with the damage card retain the other ability from the title?

This is equally easy. The title gives you the ability of other ships. Injured Pilot removes the ability, so there's nothing to transfer.

There really isn't any gray area here.

Example 1:

IG-88A Loses his own ability but retains IG-88B's ability

IG-88B loses IG-88A's ability

Example 2:

IG-88A loses both abilities

IG-88B only has his own ability left

Example 3:

IG-88A gets to keep both abilities since IG-88B has both and can pass them with the IG-2000 Title

IG-88B ( does a little happy dance)

Warning I'm prepared to argue any of these examples just for the sake of argument

Correction: Switching my answer to B

I think I agree.

I was going to say A, but then that means the ability survives a destroyed ship and I don't think that's true.

If the title is actively coping the ability of the other ship(s) then it makes sense that if that ship loses it's ability there is nothing more to copy. At the same time, the title lets you copy a pilot ability, and where that ability comes from doesn't change what it is.

But I do think that FFG will have to FAQ the interaction to deal with issues like the above.

I've fired off a rules question to FFG about both of these and provided a link to this thread.

I'm on the fence about how this should be interpreted but want to make sure that it gets some visibility before we have people trying to rules lawyer one way or the at the table.

I'm looking for some shred of evidence that a destroyed ship is not a friendly ship and all I'm getting is "it's common sense".

"It's common sense" is not the only response you've gotten. I've pointed out that every ability in X-wing acts against the current game state. You've decided to ignore it because IG-2000 doesn't have a range limitation. The very first response you got questioned whether a destroyed ship, which is out of play, counted as a ship at all, much less a friendly ship. You ignored it. You say it's completely new, but ignore the two examples I gave above (Leia and Rieekan) which both have the same text that affects all friendly ships, regardless of range. Although I suppose now we'll have to dig into whether or not destroyed ships can trigger abilities or not.

Here's what we have:

- Ships are placed in the play area at the beginning of the game

- Ships are removed from the play area when destroyed

- Cards are discarded when used

- Tournament rules specify that discarded cards are flipped face down instead of being discarded

- Tournament rules specify that face down cards are out of play and considered discarded

Now, here's what we're assuming:

- Discarded cards cannot be used or affect the game in any way. There really aren't any rules that cover this, honestly. It's pretty much just taken as common sense.

If you can't find even a shred of evidence, in all that, that abilities only work on and against things in the play area, then you have your head buried so far in the sand you're going to have to hope the Chinese censors are willing to let your email get through to FFG.

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well. There is a gray area in these interactions and I would not be so quick to say I know how FFG will rule on these. Does the injured Pilot card take the ability from both IG-88s? does the ship with the damage card retain the other ability from the title?

This is equally easy. The title gives you the ability of other ships. Injured Pilot removes the ability, so there's nothing to transfer.

There really isn't any gray area here.

(Kevin, I love being the Devils Advocate) Damaged Cockpit makes a pilot have a 0 pilot skill but you can raise that Pilot Skill with Swarm Tactics ignoring the effect of the damaged card. So by that ruling the damage cards are not always weighted heavier then in game effects. Your "easy" explanation only covers one portion of the exchanges of two IG-2000's title cards. Let's same IG-88A has the Injured Pilot damage card and the IG-2000 Title and is in a squad with IG-88B with a title card.

Example 1:

IG-88A Loses his own ability but retains IG-88B's ability

IG-88B loses IG-88A's ability

Example 2:

IG-88A loses both abilities

IG-88B only has his own ability left

Example 3:

IG-88A gets to keep both abilities since IG-88B has both and can pass them with the IG-2000 Title

IG-88B ( does a little happy dance)

Warning I'm prepared to argue any of these examples just for the sake of argument

Pilot Skill is specifically called out as a "latest effect wins" in the FAQ. It's pretty much the exception, but even if we go with "latest effect wins" this still works out the same.

If it's a continuous ability, then if -A loses his ability, he loses both of them (because IG-2000 gives him an extra one), and -B loses -A's because there's nothing there to copy.

If it's a "latest effect wins", then the damage card is the most recent one to come into play, and it functions the same unless something active happens to give the ability back.

If you think it might work differently, even just for the sake of argument - then please offer the "why" as well, and not just the possibility of a random result.

So why don't we take a look at dvor's question, in some depth: Is a destroyed ship a ship?

I don't believe it is. What's more, I don't believe ANYONE thinks it is, including you.

Here are a few rule bits:

So... do you ever place a maneuver dial on a destroyed ship? Do you activate them? Give them an Action during the Perform Action step? Do you block the end of the Combat phase because out-of-play ships have not had the opportunity to attack?

Universally, every rule which talks about ships does so in the context of ships in the play area. And every player I've ever known treats them as such. If it's not in the active play area, it's not a ship. Is that strictly defined? No. But there are a whole lot of places where the game simply breaks if that's not the rule, and it's so universally accepted I'd consider it a sort of common law rule, whether FFG explicitly said it or not.

Edit: And just to be clear, if it's not a ship, it can't be a friendly ship.

I'm looking for some shred of evidence that a destroyed ship is not a friendly ship and all I'm getting is "it's common sense".

"It's common sense" is not the only response you've gotten. I've pointed out that every ability in X-wing acts against the current game state. You've decided to ignore it because IG-2000 doesn't have a range limitation. The very first response you got questioned whether a destroyed ship, which is out of play, counted as a ship at all, much less a friendly ship. You ignored it. You say it's completely new, but ignore the two examples I gave above (Leia and Rieekan) which both have the same text that affects all friendly ships, regardless of range. Although I suppose now we'll have to dig into whether or not destroyed ships can trigger abilities or not.

Here's what we have:

- Ships are placed in the play area at the beginning of the game

- Ships are removed from the play area when destroyed

- Cards are discarded when used

- Tournament rules specify that discarded cards are flipped face down instead of being discarded

- Tournament rules specify that face down cards are out of play and considered discarded

Now, here's what we're assuming:

- Discarded cards cannot be used or affect the game in any way. There really aren't any rules that cover this, honestly. It's pretty much just taken as common sense.

If you can't find even a shred of evidence, in all that, that abilities only work on and against things in the play area, then you have your head buried so far in the sand you're going to have to hope the Chinese censors are willing to let your email get through to FFG.

I had no clue what you were talking about with Leia and Riekkan when you mentioned them:

and not having to add Leia and Rieekan to my list in order to use them will improve them dramatically.

Neither of these cards supports the concept that ships must be in play to be considered friendly. Leia affects "all friendly ship that reveal a red maneuver". Ships that are destroyed do not reveal maneuvers. Reikkan allows you to "treat all friendly ships' PS as 12". There is no game effect to a destroyed ship having PS12.

The tournament rules instruct you to move your destroyed ship and all of it's upgrades to a scoring pile. It never instructs you to discard them. The core rules also never instruct you to discard them. The only thing you are instructed to discard when a ship is destroyed are the damage cards it has on it.

I have no clue whether a destroyed ship is still a ship. The rules give no indication one way or the other.

Neither of these cards supports the concept that ships must be in play to be considered friendly. Leia affects "all friendly ship that reveal a red maneuver". Ships that are destroyed do not reveal maneuvers. Reikkan allows you to "treat all friendly ships' PS as 12". There is no game effect to a destroyed ship having PS12.

The tournament rules instruct you to move your destroyed ship and all of it's upgrades to a scoring pile. It never instructs you to discard them. The core rules also never instruct you to discard them. The only thing you are instructed to discard when a ship is destroyed are the damage cards it has on it.

I'm not talking about Leia affecting a destroyed ship. I'm talking about the ship they're on being destroyed, and affecting those that are still in the play area.

Well, then, if a ship isn't discarded, I can still use its abilities, right? Which means if my ship carrying Leia is destroyed, I can still activate her when I want to, and since she affects all friendly ships (which doesn't respect the in-the-play-area boundary) Leia can affect friendly ships, even though her own has been destroyed.

At least by your reasoning. Unless you can provide some reason why a destroyed ship can't use its upgrades? After all, they're not discarded, the turn flow specifically includes all ships (which by your logic includes the destroyed ones)...

So why don't we take a look at dvor's question, in some depth: Is a destroyed ship a ship?

I don't believe it is. What's more, I don't believe ANYONE thinks it is, including you.

Here are a few rule bits:

During this phase, each player uses maneuver dials secretly choose one maneuver for each of his ships.

During this phase, each ship is activated one at a time. Starting with the ship with the lowest skill, resolve the following steps in order...

After each ship has had the opportunity to attack, the Combat phase ends and players proceed to the End phase.

So... do you ever place a maneuver dial on a destroyed ship? Do you activate them? Give them an Action during the Perform Action step? Do you block the end of the Combat phase because out-of-play ships have not had the opportunity to attack?

Universally, every rule which talks about ships does so in the context of ships in the play area. And every player I've ever known treats them as such. If it's not in the active play area, it's not a ship. Is that strictly defined? No. But there are a whole lot of places where the game simply breaks if that's not the rule, and it's so universally accepted I'd consider it a sort of common law rule, whether FFG explicitly said it or not.

Edit: And just to be clear, if it's not a ship, it can't be a friendly ship.

The bit about placing dials I think gets to the root of it. If all ships "must" place a dial and all dials "must" be placed inside the play area and next to the corresponding ship it would cause things to implode if a ship that had been removed from the board was still considered a ship. I can't find anywhere that they refer to those steps only applying to active ships or ships still in play.

If all ships "must" place a dial and all dials "must" be placed inside the play area and next to the corresponding ship it would cause things to implode if a ship that had been removed from the board was still considered a ship. I can't find anywhere that they refer to those steps only applying to active ships or ships still in play.

Well, then, I guess your game just imploded and you can't play any more.

Or, possibly, a ship is only a ship if it's in the play area. Which is, I'm quite sure, how you've played right up until it became inconvenient for your IG-2000 argument.

Neither of these cards supports the concept that ships must be in play to be considered friendly. Leia affects "all friendly ship that reveal a red maneuver". Ships that are destroyed do not reveal maneuvers. Reikkan allows you to "treat all friendly ships' PS as 12". There is no game effect to a destroyed ship having PS12.

The tournament rules instruct you to move your destroyed ship and all of it's upgrades to a scoring pile. It never instructs you to discard them. The core rules also never instruct you to discard them. The only thing you are instructed to discard when a ship is destroyed are the damage cards it has on it.

I'm not talking about Leia affecting a destroyed ship. I'm talking about the ship they're on being destroyed, and affecting those that are still in the play area.

Well, then, if a ship isn't discarded, I can still use its abilities, right? Which means if my ship carrying Leia is destroyed, I can still activate her when I want to, and since she affects all friendly ships (which doesn't respect the in-the-play-area boundary) Leia can affect friendly ships, even though her own has been destroyed.

At least by your reasoning. Unless you can provide some reason why a destroyed ship can't use its upgrades? After all, they're not discarded, the turn flow specifically includes all ships (which by your logic includes the destroyed ones)...

In the case of the IG-2000 title, the destroyed ship doesn't have to use anything and the cards on it don't need to be activated. That is what seemed to be the difference to me between this card and earlier cards.

I still think that this is something that needs to be dealt with in a FAQ. I don't mind being a munchkin rules lawyer on an Internet forum, I don't want to have to do it while I'm playing X-Wing.

If all ships "must" place a dial and all dials "must" be placed inside the play area and next to the corresponding ship it would cause things to implode if a ship that had been removed from the board was still considered a ship. I can't find anywhere that they refer to those steps only applying to active ships or ships still in play.

Well, then, I guess your game just imploded and you can't play any more.

Or, possibly, a ship is only a ship if it's in the play area. Which is, I'm quite sure, how you've played right up until it became inconvenient for your IG-2000 argument.

The block of text that you didn't quote was me conceding that you were probably right because of the block you decided to quote.

The block of text that you didn't quote was me conceding that you were probably right because of the block you decided to quote.

I left out "The bit about placing dials I think gets to the root of it." I'm not sure how that says what you're saying here that it said, but OK.

The block of text that you didn't quote was me conceding that you were probably right because of the block you decided to quote.

I left out "The bit about placing dials I think gets to the root of it." I'm not sure how that says what you're saying here that it said, but OK.

Yeah, I guess that could have probably been a little more clear on my part. All of the other sections seem to assume that steps in previous phases had been completed or would only kick in if some other requirements were met (having an enemy ship in range) but the bit about placing movement dials doesn't have the same issues with it and actually has some imperatives that would make it impossible to continue the game if destroyed ships were still ships.

If it's a continuous ability, then if -A loses his ability, he loses both of them (because IG-2000 gives him an extra one), and -B loses -A's because there's nothing there to copy.

If you think it might work differently, even just for the sake of argument - then please offer the "why" as well, and not just the possibility of a random result.

I don't think it works differently, but just musing on the possibilities...

Is it possible that the other abilities don't count as pilot abilities but rather abilities being granted by the title upgrade? So in a list with 2 IG-2000s, each one would have one pilot ability and one ability granted by a title that copies the other pilot ability but is not itself a pilot ability.

If it's a continuous ability, then if -A loses his ability, he loses both of them (because IG-2000 gives him an extra one), and -B loses -A's because there's nothing there to copy.

If you think it might work differently, even just for the sake of argument - then please offer the "why" as well, and not just the possibility of a random result.

I don't think it works differently, but just musing on the possibilities...

Is it possible that the other abilities don't count as pilot abilities but rather abilities being granted by the title upgrade? So in a list with 2 IG-2000s, each one would have one pilot ability and one ability granted by a title that copies the other pilot ability but is not itself a pilot ability.

This was my first thought as well, but looking at the text again I don't think so:

You have the pilot ability of each other friendly ship with the IG-2000 Upgrade card (in addition to your own pilot ability).

The title gives you additional pilot abilities, so anything that removes pilot abilities would hit those as well.

Although the more I look at it, the less sure I am on this one. I'm very confident that if A loses his ability, then B loses his copy of A. But I'm not entirely sure that A loses B... Even though it's a gained pilot ability, Injured Pilot says "Players must ignore your pilot ability" (emphasis mine)... and the title does make a distinction between yours and the other gained ones via the parenthetical. So is an ability gained via the title considered "Yours"? I think it has to be, and would play it as such until/unless we get a ruling otherwise. I wouldn't go to the mat for this one at this point, though.

So after all that... maybe?

Well, Injured Pilot says all *players* must ignore your ability. Doesn't say anything about your ships.