Was thinking of this in the "does anyone use the bomber" thread, but it's more about missiles and torps than TIA Bombers specifically, so new thread.

Idea 1:

How about something that says

At the start of the activation phase, you may look at the dial of any ship on which you have a red target lock token

Makes it more certain that you'll be able to get your missile/torpedo off without necessarily using PTL to get the focus token for it.

Only trouble is, would it be too powerful a combo with Advanced Targeting Computer?

Idea 2:

How about to make ships with multiple missile/torpedo slots better create an upgrade that takes up the missile/torp slot and provides a benefit to any other missile/torp that the ship has? For example, idea 1 could be an advanced computer module that you fix to the ship using the hardoint that you'd normally use for another missile/torp?

didn't read the bomber thread but still think it would be easier to just allow multiple shots with a munition based on how many torps ect were carried by a certain ship. wiki says the X-wing carried 3 torps. etc.. I don't know just wish it would get fixed some how.Just seems like a waste to have all that stuff and never use it because it basically cost to much to use or on certain ships its no better than its primary armament.

I don't know just wish it would get fixed some how.Just seems like a waste to have all that stuff and never use it because it basically cost to much to use or on certain ships its no better than its primary armament.

True, and not an uncommon sentiment (to put it mildly), so I suspect FFG have something in the workd.

You know, about that thread... not read it but I am considering 4X scimitar 2X alpha as a tourney list.

Granted it's not using bombers in their intended role, but I can't justify the points spent to make bombers used in their intended role.

The simplest fix for ordanace is just allowing them to have the benefits of thier token when firing or a title that give them a focus token when they declare an ordnance atk.

This is too complicated and doesn't really make sense. Here's what I recommend they do.

Action: Reload. This ship receives a reload token. After this ship receives X reload tokens, this weapon may be used again.

That lets them vary the reload time for certain weapons and gives pilots a variety of decisions to make. They could errata all missiles and torps to say that they are not discarded but rather get the initial reload token.

For example, APT are really good so their timer should be longer, say X=4, where regular proton torps could be X=2.

These are the new Tie Advanced threads.

These are the new Tie Advanced threads.

It's the cirrrcle of life, and it rules us allllll....

This is too complicated and doesn't really make sense. Here's what I recommend they do.

Action: Reload. This ship receives a reload token. After this ship receives X reload tokens, this weapon may be used again.

That lets them vary the reload time for certain weapons and gives pilots a variety of decisions to make. They could errata all missiles and torps to say that they are not discarded but rather get the initial reload token.

For example, APT are really good so their timer should be longer, say X=4, where regular proton torps could be X=2.

This would make them worse. Action economy is a huge deal in this game and requiring more actions to fire the torps would be horrible.

To be fair if they fixed ordanace first they likely wouldn't have needed an advanced fix or awing fix or bwing fix or ywing fix or z95 fix or xwing fix or hwk fix. It can be argued much of these fixes stem from the original issue with ordanace.

I came up with this a while back

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128176-a-meta-repairing-idea/

I may have over costed the upgrades, but I think something like that would be the way to go. Turn the Tie bomber into a mega alpha striker.

This is too complicated and doesn't really make sense. Here's what I recommend they do.

I think it makes sense - the targeting computer is predicting where your opponent is going to be, so you see its dial - what's wrong with that (and what's complicated)?

These are the new Tie Advanced threads.

If people were just complaining (like you are) then you'd have a point, but when people are discussing their idea, on a forum, that seems about right to me.

We already have a Munitions Failsafe, so how about a different modification that does something different.

Munitions Guidance Package: Modification. 2 points. When a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to attack, you may gain the benefits of that token for the attack.

So Munitions Failsafe is cheaper, and allows you to pull off a few fun combos like Flechette Torpedoes and whatnot, while Munitions Guidance Package costs a little bit more and makes your munitions more likely to hit but you still only get the one try.

The problem with ordnance is that a pilot has to use his action to TL and can't use anything else to alter the dice. Ordnance is too many points for something that can just flub. Letting you flub twice isn't an option. Letting you see the dial of another ship isn't a fix, either. Letting you use the TL or Focus (whatever is required to fire) in the actual attack is the best option that effects every ship that can use ordnance without a card or some other fix.

It's not overpowered and you still need the TL, which hurts low PS ships. Homing Missiles pay the extra point to have the target not use the evade token.

How about to make ships with multiple missile/torpedo slots better create an upgrade that takes up the missile/torp slot and provides a benefit to any other missile/torp that the ship has?

I like that idea a lot, it would give the best benefit to the ships that have more than one slot for missiles/torpedoes. Question is, if you'd let them stack... Which could make the Bomber's Ord quite deadly which IMO isn't a bad thing at all.

I've always felt that ordnance seemed like a waste because you're spending a significant number of points on a one-off attack. Star Wars ships canonically can carry lots of ordnance, not just a single missile or torpedo, so it doesn't feel right to only get to fire once. So how about this:

Ordnance Reloader

Modification

ACTION: Turn one of your face-down missile or torpedo upgrade cards face up, then acquire a target lock.

Cost: 3

Uses an action, but that's OK because it lets you get a target lock, which most ordnance needs. Lets you reuse ordnance after you've fired it already. Yes, it lets you reuse ordnance throughout the match, but hey — you spend seven points to use a Heavy Laser Cannon throughout an entire match, so why can't you use Proton Torpedoes with this upgrade for seven points throughout an entire match? Seems OK to me.

I've always felt that ordnance seemed like a waste because you're spending a significant number of points on a one-off attack. Star Wars ships canonically can carry lots of ordnance, not just a single missile or torpedo, so it doesn't feel right to only get to fire once. So how about this:

Ordnance Reloader

Modification

ACTION: Turn one of your face-down missile or torpedo upgrade cards face up, then acquire a target lock.

Cost: 3

Uses an action, but that's OK because it lets you get a target lock, which most ordnance needs. Lets you reuse ordnance after you've fired it already. Yes, it lets you reuse ordnance throughout the match, but hey — you spend seven points to use a Heavy Laser Cannon throughout an entire match, so why can't you use Proton Torpedoes with this upgrade for seven points throughout an entire match? Seems OK to me.

The problem with the reloading mechanic is that it basically makes the bomber and other specialist missile carriers obsolete. Perhaps if instead of requiring an action it reloaded automatically after n turns, and the more you equip the lower n becomes? Alternatively, you could add a non-limited missile/torp card that reduces the points cost of other equipped missiles/torps.

I've always felt that ordnance seemed like a waste because you're spending a significant number of points on a one-off attack. Star Wars ships canonically can carry lots of ordnance, not just a single missile or torpedo, so it doesn't feel right to only get to fire once. So how about this:

Ordnance Reloader

Modification

ACTION: Turn one of your face-down missile or torpedo upgrade cards face up, then acquire a target lock.

Cost: 3

Uses an action, but that's OK because it lets you get a target lock, which most ordnance needs. Lets you reuse ordnance after you've fired it already. Yes, it lets you reuse ordnance throughout the match, but hey — you spend seven points to use a Heavy Laser Cannon throughout an entire match, so why can't you use Proton Torpedoes with this upgrade for seven points throughout an entire match? Seems OK to me.

The problem with the reloading mechanic is that it basically makes the bomber and other specialist missile carriers obsolete. Perhaps if instead of requiring an action it reloaded automatically after n turns, and the more you equip the lower n becomes? Alternatively, you could add a non-limited missile/torp card that reduces the points cost of other equipped missiles/torps.

I actually kinda disagree with you on the reasoning. the double missile mechanic allows a selection of weapons to be carried. Maybe you want to stress for an ioner with flachette torpedoes. Maybe you want to (waste points) blow up something with ADV proton. That bomber or B-wing can do both, the Bomber becomes a very versatile vehicle.

Should torpedoes be infinite ammo? No. Because that just sounds stupid and if you do that, then why lasers?

I actually kinda disagree with you on the reasoning. the double missile mechanic allows a selection of weapons to be carried. Maybe you want to stress for an ioner with flachette torpedoes. Maybe you want to (waste points) blow up something with ADV proton. That bomber or B-wing can do both, the Bomber becomes a very versatile vehicle.

Should torpedoes be infinite ammo? No. Because that just sounds stupid and if you do that, then why lasers?

Yeah, there's value in having a choice of ordnance to fire, but not the full value of the card, not nearly. If you could fill two slots of your bomber with ordnance and two with something that lowers the cost (and stacks) of BOTH, then it has some serious usefulness. I would've however, pay an pay 8 points just so I can pick which missile to fire, for example, when for four I can have one really good one anyway.

This is true, you pay an awful lot for the choice., which takes us back to an earlier suggested fix which amounts to BOGOF.

I should add that I think with ordnance fix ideas we are kinda going in circles, rehashing ideas and really we should just wait for FFG - who are I am fairly certain aware of the problem, and I am sure a fix will be in play by the time the year is out.

I should also point out that prockets and flachette torpedoes are bloody great!

Yeah, definitely some circle going round in! Still, it passes the time till the next boat arrives (and the one after, since we still won't have a fix on that boat ).

Given how long we've all been theorising about it I have to wonder if FFG's solution will actually be pretty close to something one of us has said.

Yeah, I thought about what the value of the TIE Bomber having multiple torpedo slots would be with that Ordnance Reload card hypothetically existing. Its value would be similar to the Aggressor having two cannon slots — you'd have the ability to carry a variety of different ordnances on the Bomber. Maybe an Advanced Proton Torpedo for when you're close enough to use it and a Flechette Torpedo for when you're not. They'd be fairly versatile.

If you want to limit the card so you don't have "unlimited" missiles, you can add text to it that reads: "Discard this card after using it." So you basically get a second shot with just one of your missiles/torpedoes. (This is different from Munitions Failsafe because MF gives you another chance to hit with an ordnance that's failed to hit ... Ordnance Reload lets you possibly hit twice with the same ordnance.) I might reduce its cost to 1 or 2 if this were the case, though.

But I don't think it would be broken to let Ordnance Reload be unlimited considering ships usually don't last more than a handful of turns in this game. And like I said, an unlimited-use Proton Torpedo (that costs an extra 3 points to make unlimited) is basically the same as an unlimited-use Heavy Laser Cannon, and no one makes a stink about that. No one asks, "Well if you can fire HLC unlimited times, what's the point in primary weapons?"

Let's do a thought experiment:

Imagine all ordinance costs 0 points, but you have to do 10 pushups for every unused missile or torpedo on your ships at the end of the match.

What munitions do you put on which ships?

My feeling is that even for zero points, most ordinance is not worth the bother to fire. In large part, that's due to action economy. I actually do like the idea of being able to rearm with a mod that let's me also get a target lock. That goes a fair way to solving a couple problems. But then we're still left with attacks that don't do enough damage for the turn theyre used in.

My personal opinion is that FFG included ordinance as a high risk / high reward option and overvalued it because of the ability to do high levels of damage in a single shot (even if it is improbable). Imagine how NOT fun an early wave 1 battle would be if an Xwing and an Advanced Tie clashed by jousting and in the first round of shooting a proton torpedo took out one of the combatants. That's a lot of setup for a very unexciting game, (ignoring all of poor strategic choices and highly improbably rolls / card reveals that could lead to such an event happening).

To exacerbate the high risk / overvalued problem is the tendency for more competitive players to (stereotypically) prefer non-luck reliant strategies, which further reduces the likelihood of ordinance seeing play. Narrative-style and more casual players are more willing to use high risk / high reward strategies because they're more willing to tolerate (or be ignorant of) non-optimal performance so that they can get that high-5 story of the time that pulled off the miracle shot that won them the game. ("Use the force Luke" "Great shot kid")

I think the good news is that newly released ordinance is getting closer to the playability (for competitive folks) and they are experimenting with various buffs to ordinance (munitions fail safe, Lt. Blount, Jonus, etc).

However, if the aim of the game is to try and make the original ordinance competitive, the idea I liked (but have in no way tested) is that via a rules change or modification... When Missiles & Torpedoes deal damage, they ignore shields. It maintains them being a high risk strategy, but increases the reward exponentially.... And can be (somewhat) justified in the fluff.

personally I like the auto damage concept.. if you score a "hit" the munition does its max damage. also they should have some kind of built in focus as torps/missiles have guidance/proximity systems and bombs/ mines have proximity sensors etc.. would definitely start using them if that was the case!!