Locque,

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=101&efcid=3&efidt=137144&efpag=1#146541

We're talking about this guy? I remember reading that when I joined the forums. I think its clear at this point that this player should be playing a TB 4-5 Arbitrater with Enforcer Carapace, a pump shotgun and a shock maul. Add on the investigatory skills inherent to that class has and a couple social elite advances and from what you've written I think his play style and your game will finally get along.

I've been debating with myself typing this next part and I just can't seem to let it pass without expressing it. Your allowing the autogunners to fire while engaged in melee combat thus killing his cleric seems suspect to me (the reason I say this is as near as I can tell, you are engaged in melee combat as soon as an enemy wielding a melee weapon comes within three meters of your character or NPCs) so I can see why he was frustrated with that character. As soon as he broke cover with his adept the first time and attacked (fruitlessly) with his sword I think you should have realized that the problem was that this guy wants to be an in your face combatant as well as somewhat socially/intellectually able to assist the party (thus my arbitrater suggestion, cheap toughness increases and decent combat skills).

It may be jarring but I honestly think your best solution would be to switch the adept for an arbitrater and say that the arbitrater was there the whole time (psychic memory blocks suddenly failed releasing the characters' true memories perhaps?).

I do not want to come across as telling you how to run your game or that I think you are a bad GM as that is not the case, but I do think this will be the easiest way to curb the "trouble" that seems to be coming from this one player.

Jonathan

jonathan_sicari said:

Just one nitpick: Your rules for melee engagement seems to indicate that there is no such thing as point blank range anymore, as being at PB indicates that you are close enough to be in melee. Remember that unarmed attacks are also melee combat and you can get opportunity attacks with it just as with swords. In the rules the exact definition of being in melee combat is a bit vague, but it seems to indicate that an opponent has attacked you or is able to attack you in melee. Being "engaged is just defined as being adjacent, which I presume means 1 meter away,

I'd allow attacks further away than 1 meter for long weapons, but point blank firing should be possible against other than stunned targets.

I have defined adjacent as 3 meters as that is the distance given for a melee attack. While you are correct about unarmed attacks I basically choose to use intent and awareness as indicaters as to whether Point blank firing is allowed (does the opposing combatant intend to shoot you? Is he armed with a non-pistol or melee weapon? Is the opposing combatant aware of your presence? I do agree that it is nebulously defined). May I ask for a page reference on your use of 1 meter?

*Edit* For example, in the first session of my game (listed here as ****** and Grab), my Schola Pregenum Guardsman rushed into a room containing 3 cultists and 3 cult fanatics, all with their firearms (stub automatics and handcannons) drawn. Stopping 3 meters away, he blasted one of the cult fanatics with his shotgun (Point Blank range was allowed because the cultists intent was to "light up" anyone who came through the door). That cult fanatic and another (who was point blank shot from the door by an Arbitrater) both went down, then the cultists semiauto/pointblank nailed the poor guardsman to the wall (next round the arbitrater Pointblank shotgun blasted the last fanatic, only to suffer the same fate as his guardsman friend, then the Feral Guardswoman and the other Arbitrater came into the room with axes and clubs and cleaned house.

Jonathan

3 meters ... is the distance given for a melee attack

Where is that distance given?

I hope you realise that his makes shotguns utterly useless.

They do nothing special until point blank, at which point they are by your definition in melee unless the target fails to notice the attacker (Shotguns, only for backstab) or ALLOWS themselves to be shot up at point blank by the shotgunner. This Does Not Make Sense!

I apparantly owe an apology as I cannot find the reference in either the main book or the erratta that pertains. My bad. Seeing as we've been playing that way since my friend started his game I'm gonna have to see if he remembers why I thought that.

Well, i have a Rank 5 Arbitrator which i either use to help my PCs or to transmit orders to them. Since i use him in the adventures as a 'death-meter' he is rather good in taking punches and returning them.

Atellus Silon - Rank 5 Arbitrator (Arbitrator)

male - Imperial World - Age 34 - Heigt 1,75

Armour: Full Stormtrooper Carapace

Hardened Body Glove

Weapons:

Club

Knife (mono)

Brass Knuckles

Chain Sword

Combat Shotgun (Red-Dot Sight)

Autogun (Red-dot Sight, auxiliary grenade launcher)

2 Plasma Pistols (both with RDS)

One of his personal quirks: He wants to get a third Plasma Pistol to make a little 'Revolver Ocelot' Imitation (think MGS 3)

Other tools:

Chrono, Bounty Hunter License, 1 real cognomen, 3 fake cognomen for Aliases, Uniform, several sets of 'civilian cloths', Chameoline Cloak, Gas mask, IR goggles, Micro Bead, ...

Tattered Fates stripped them of their gear (there was a little weeping), but before that there are eight players who were well into their sixth careers.

About half of them used high performance slug throwers with Manstopper rounds.

The rest used either bolters or high powered lases. There were a few grenade launchers and a flamer as well.

Hand to hand combat weapons included one best quality power sword, a Lathe blade sword, a good quality eviscerator, a chain axe, and a force sword.

Armour was mostly light and concealable, a lot of armoured bodygloves and xeno mesh. One refractor field and one conversion field (the latter courtesy of the House of Dust and Ash).

jonathan_sicari said:

Electro flails allow melee attacks from 3m away as I recall, but otherwise, you have to be adjacent tosomeone to fight in melee with them. I woudn't count someone being attacked by an electro flail as being in melee combat unless their assailant was right next to them. If a character is within 3m, but not in melee, they're point blank and receive a +30 bonus to hit with shooting attacks. but I'd change that ASAP, as you're essentially giving someone with a knife a 9ft range.

Now there seems to be a bit of debate over my "problem player" which is great, debate is to be encouraged, but I think something neds to be established. The problem with this guy isn't that he has an eviscerator, it's that he's utterly unconvincing about justifying it. His character for instance, has an enormous collection of handguns (he constantly takes pistols from fallen enemies) which I have no problem with, it honestly seems quite fitting that he might amass a collection of firearms. The eviscerator is a symptom of this guy's powergaming , must-be-good-at-everything style of play. He's taken a weapon iconically associated with a branch of the imperium that his own character maintains as much distance as possible from without outright heresy. It's in complete contrast to his character's personality, and he's done nothing to justify or explain why his smooth talking, mild-mannered, nobleborn xeno-scholar with a penchant for elegant technology has adopted a loud, heavy, crude, smoke-belching super chainsaw. I think the accustations against me of being mean to the player honestly haven't been thought fully out here. He's simply not thinking about his character, but about what's cool in the land of 40k.

Just picture it in your head: an irreligious, mild-mannered academic in a long, flowing, finely tailored blue coat. Being an inquisition agent, he has a pair of concealed, custom built autopistols holstered beneath the coat. His wireframe glasses are actually concealed night vision goggles. Now he's strapped a giant 2 handed, smoke belching chainsaw on, made from crudely stamped sheet metal. It's about as big as he is, and roars and snarls angrily when activated. Bear in mind, his weapon in melee before this was a chimera pistol rapier.

Locque said:

Do you describe it as such in your game? When he's reeving it up or kicking it on, do you describe the intense howling noise it makes, the greasy iron smelling noxious smoke that belches from it staining his hands and blackening the forearms to his coat? When it's teeth connect with flesh, do you describe the blood and gore that fly off it's teeth in all directions, but mostly his. After a fight with it, do you spend some time impacting upon him how wet his character is, his fine jacket soaked in blood (that ain't coming out) wit bits of someone else's air and soft giblets sliding down the lenses to his glasses and stick inexplicably in his teeth and hair while other "tings" slide down the nape of his neck and down his back?

Perhaps he knows the stats of the eviscerator and likes the image of it but hasn't thought about the full realities of such a weapon.

Graver said:

He hasn't used it on a conventional, living target just yet, but soon...soon. You are absolutely right in how I think this should be driven home. As I said, once he enters the red cages though, it's gone, and as he emergwes from the red cages, he'll encounter fatebringers, needle pistols, concealable knives and similar, more elegant murder tools. If he wants it back once again after he's gotten off-world, well I can't stop him, but I'll make **** sure it draws attention and behaves as you describe.

Graver said:

I don't know about you, and I do know that im a morbid bastard... But that just made me very anxious to get an eviscerator myself.

jonathan_sicari said:

FYI there is no rule saying one meter, only "next to", "close on", "adjascent to" etc. Since the system seems to assume a grid is used, and one meter in the typical grid size for such a game, I take it to mean you are normally only engaged when the enemy is in the square next to you, which is about 1-2 meters. At 3 meters you are definately out of melee unless a particular long weapon is used (my house rule).

Two points.

1) An eviscerator has a built in disruption field, which is a crude version of a powerfield. It breaksdown matter on contact, which makes it easier for the eviscerator to chew through things and is one of the reasons for the good penetration and massive damage.

2) I recently ran the first part of Tattered Fates and included an Ogryn in Vault 13. The Ogryn (straight out of Disciples of Dark Gods) was armed with, among other things, a 3 meter long gaff. Added that to his natural reach and hand to hand combat range was about 5 meters.

Ok, near as we can figure out, I must have seen the part where regular knives have a thrown range of 3m on the chart and that snuck into my head and went sideways (probably influenced by my knowledge of the Tueller test and having participated in a variety of simulated combat events). Again, I apologize.