I don't have all of the expansions but what is the most difficult old one to beat (original game and/or expansions)?

hm, as far as what? In final combat, during gameplay, or just in general?

I'm assuming the last, so I'll base my comments on general impossibility of winning final combat coupled with difficult game mechanics. Of the base set, Yog-Sototh pretty much fits that bill. I dunno if I've ever beating Yog in final combat, and devourings in LiTS and double sucess to seal a gate is pretty harsh.

From Dunwich, Tsothaggua is really tough, another impossible final combat, but he has a long doom track so he's not too impossible to seal. Malaise is annoying, and you can find yourself clue-screwed. Overall though both Aboth and Glaaki are tougher than him. Glaaki's servants can just be rediculous, but so long as your terror is down, you can do allright against him. I think Aboth might be the toughest of the Dunwich set, though many will disagree I'm sure. Tough, but beatable in final combat. Still, the Children are all super-tough, he has a fast doom track, and takes out the easiest monsters in the cup, ouch.

Haven't actually played kingsport, but I'm confident in saying Alatch-Nacha is the beeatch in that set. All gates are gate bursts and a pretty rediculous final combat. Might well be the hardest AO yet.

From the Innsmouth set, hmm.. probably Ghantanotha is the hardest. A long doom track might be his saving grace, but a pretty deadly fight. Sure you'll last a few rounds, but each investigators attack dealing -1 succes, along with a neg six combat mod makes it pretty harsh to take him down. He makes you paranoid about collecting clues, and that's critical to the game. Plus I'm always unlucky with that sort of thing, just wrecks my day. Some might say Quachil Uttaus is the toughest of the IH set, but i respectfully disagree. I don't find the Dust deck alltogether much of a problem. With the dust deck, you know who is vulnerable to getting devourered, with Ghantanotha it can be anybody, any time. Pretty vicious final combat on Q-U though, I'll admit.

Overall, what's my pick for the toughest AO? I'll discard Alatch-Nacha because I havent played against her. Aboth is eminently beatable in final combat, tough, but not impossible, so he's out. I'd have to say it's between Yog-Sothoth and Ghantanotha, with Ghantanotha pulling ahead. At least, that's the way i see it right now. Maybe that will change if I get a Ghantanotha strategy worked out.

Base game: Yog Sothoth, nobody else is even in the same league.

Dunwich: Glaaki! GLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! Oh how I loathe thee! For me Tsathoggua has been the same as Cthulhu, easy. Long doom tracks and all that.

Kingsport (which I don't have): Atlach-Nacha. Having read those attempts by tibs to seal him, I think he lost Max Sanity in bundles along the way .

Innsmouth: Zhar has a short doom track and very nasty final combat (even if I did somehow beat him ). Quachil Uttaus though, if he wakes up, kiss your ass good-bye. I played Ghatanothoa in my 2nd IH game, it was a closer game than my first vs Cthugha, but both of them have 13 doom tracks, I think over time they'll be on the bottom in terms of difficulty. G did eat Hank Samson on the 2nd turn, but the next 5 2+ Clue pick-ups went without a hitch. Ghatanothoa adds tension during games, which many other GOOs don't. Should be fun games against Ghatanothoa though. I'll probably go with Quachil Uttaus (12 doom track means I'll need maximum efficiency from all investigators + luck with Mythos to seal). Zhar #2 for now. Yet to play: Quachil, Chaugnar Faugn (aka Pink Elephant , he has a nasty final combat as well) and Rhan-Tegoth.

Overall for me: Glaaki. Those Servants always pop out at the wrong time. Will have to see when I've played all the IH GOOs multiple times if they go up the charts. Also, Terror level has been rising very slowly in recent games, so Glaaki would've been less of a hassle.

Base game... Yog-Sothoth is definitely the hardest if it comes to a fight (unless you are Bob or maybe William), but for some reason Cthulhu beats us more overall (and is almost as hard in a fight).

Dunwich... Tsathoggua we've never beaten in a fight, and I don't know if we ever will, but they're usually easy enough to seal. Glaaki and Shudde M'ell we've beaten once each, and Shudde we specifically picked our investigators to stand a chance (with only two investigators, you get far more monster surges than normal, so you really don't get long at all). Shudde is probably the harder of the two with two investigators. Abhoth is easy by comparision.

Innsmouth... a lot of these are virtually invulnerable in final combat, but not that dangerous. Rhan-Tegoth, if you get unlucky with cultist draws, is almost invincible and wakes up incredibly fast (conversely, if you get lucky with cultist draws, they're pretty easy). Quachil we haven't beaten yet, but it's always been close. I don't think any of them in the long-term will inspire the "oh no" we get on Shudde or Glaaki draws, even though many of them are Tsathoggua or tougher in the final fight.

So, I'll say Shudde M'ell, but note that with more than two investigators this probably isn't true.

Atlach-Nacha, I think. The combination of the in-game effects (making it really difficult to prevent her/him from waking up) and the attrocious final combat abilities and a high negative modifier maker that particular ancient one succeed where others fail.

For just in-game effects...I'd still have to say Atlach-Nacha.

But for final Combat, I was going to say chauignar Faugn, but no, not him. There are a variety of dificult ancient ones for final combat, but I'd have to go with Tsathoggua. In the case of Atlach-Nacha and Quachil Uttaus, you only have one person being devoured each turn. Tsathoggua, while not as immune to damage as those two, will reduce your group to nothing in a matter of 2-3 rounds. You can't burst damage the guy effectively since you lose all clue tokens at the start of combat, and his -6 modifier makes it difficult to do alot of damage. Basically one could say that you have 3 turns for every investigator to make 13 successes with a modifier of -6.

With Quachil Uttaus you only have your fight value -3, due to immunities. Depending on the investigators involved, this isn't so bad, especially when we throw in clues. Only 1 investigator dies per turn. Similarly, Atlach-Nacha might have a further -2, but only has resistances (basically meaning nearly no change there) and her attack is weaker, since it can kill allies instead of investigators.

The fewer players I have on hand for a given game, the more I fear Tsathoggua over Atlach-Nacha. Generally, with 2 Investigators the epic battle will be harsh, and might happen anyway. You can only prepare well for either the AO battle or preventing the ancient one from awakening, so usually one will strive to seal/close gates/etc. Meaning annihilation against Tsathoggua, should he awaken. In Atlach-Nachas case, a seal victory is difficult, and with a low amount of investigators, a closing the gates victory nigh-on impossible. So you gear up with allies, clues and equipment to stand a fighting chance.

But when we are playing 4 Investigator games, Tsathoggua doesn't affect the game enough to screw you over too badly, so we usually win before he awakens. With Atlach-Nacha, we concentrate on both gearing up and closing gates, but I have not had enough games against her/it to really say that's a successful strategy. It worked so far, usually ending in a final battle with moderate losses/a chance to win.

In general, I'd rank the average AO difficulty per set thusly, from weakest to hardest:

1.) Arkham Horror (for obvious reasons)

2.) Innsmouth Horror (they are a mixed bag. Most are harsh in combat, but quite a few don't really have any great in-game effects)

3.) Dunwich Horror (most are above average, if not truly horriffic)

4.) Kingsport Horror (Ludicrous. Eihort and Atlach-Nacha make the final battle more likely and are pretty mean in it. Y'Golonac and Yibb-Tstll are so-so, even though the increase in evade check difficulty can really screw you over, and are both harsh in final combat)

...however, besides my opinion, the Arkham Horror stats posts in that is stickied on the first page of this forum is a much better way to assess difficulty, as it takes multiple situations and different player experiences into account.

I've found myself thinking A-N would probably be average sealable if you use both DH and IH (like I do). I know it's been luck of the draw, but I haven't been getting bounces on seals more than 1 per game. Silas Marsh would especially come in hand. With 20 unstable locations (though I suppose 19 really, with Y'ha-nthlei having only 2 gate cards), chances of gate bursts even with Atlach are less. The flip side of that no-bounce is of course that 1 doomer gets added most turns (or 2 in case of doublers). Whereas the games used to run around 20 Mythos (nothing to back that up in terms of actual facts, just a gut feeling, ball-park figure), 5 games featuring IH, one has gone 17 Mythos, two 14 Mythos, one 11 Mythos and didn't keep tally in the first one, but Cthugha was at 8 of 13 when I slapped the 6th seal down (1 Elder Sign used; recall had 2 monster surges in that one). Actual turn count would be 1 less than the Mythos cards used, given that you draw one during pre-game (haven't failed any Rumors or the like that would cause drawing of multiple Mythos cards per turn).

We were actually able to beat the Nacha Boy by seals the other day... we didn't have a hearld or a guardian(we always roll randomly to see if we get either, evens we have one odds we dont, then we roll randomly to see which we get), we were using all expansions with the anti-dilution variant and sealed everything that popped up in arkham and only closing the gates in innsmouth and dunwich. By the end of the game, we found ourselves praying that we didn't roll to draw from the arkham mythos pile... it was a pretty satisfying win, even though it was due, in large part, to luck. It was our first time beating him, and it was everything that I dreamed it would be. He definatly gets my vote for most difficult AO, he's really the only one where, when drawn, there is a collective sigh of "oh ****, here we go again."

Yeah, I'll vote for Atlach-Nacha as well. I've managed to beat him once, and although I would like to say otherwise, it was just sheer luck. I got a closing victory by just doggedly sealing gates, Ashcan got clues on almost every counter and had over 16 at one point (and Mythos Lore) and was captain of the white ship, so just kept closing them no matter where they opened. One more doom token and he would have awoke. He just kept monster surging this one gate until I closed it (witch house, if I recall correctly).

I've never had a problem with Tsathoggua or Eihort. Maybe I've just been lucky. Yog is a pain, but very beatable. I actually tend to have trouble with Cthulhu for some reason. Abhoth and Glaaki are both mean, nasty AOs.

I don't have innsmouth yet, so can't comment on those guys. They sound like devouring machines.

I never played against Atlach-Nacha, but I guess it's quiet possible to win by sealing - just seal the least unstable gates first, and make sure to keep all the monsters in check.

I never found Yog-Sothoth too hard: He hardly effects the game except for the closing thing, and if you send those investigators with a high Lore or Fight value, or make sure you collect some more clues it shouldn't be harder than Hastur (8 clues for sealing). From the base game, I'd rate Cthulhu hardest, because 7/3 investigators become 6/2 investigators, and usually spend a lot of time in the hospital / asylum. ^^

... however, which AO is hardest always depends on the group, and on their playing style (and on the setup, of course ^^).

Hastur is the AO I like least from the original set, even though he's a thematic favourite.

He's "hardest" cos I can't face the marathon game implied by the 8 clues per seal (I never play for an FB).

Call me shallow, but I'd rather lose horribly in a reasonable time than save the world at 4am.

I've never used the big spider.

- Mariana the ex-nun Cultist

I'll give my two cents, for what I've encountered, and I'm not going to count Azathoth for final battle:

Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth are hardest to fight in the base game, for different but equally evil reasons. Yog-Sothoth is the hardest to win by close/seal. I would choose Yog-Sothoth as hardest overall from the base set. Nyatlathotep is the easiest overall.

Dunwich : Tsathoggua's the hardest to fight. Glaaki's the hardest overall. Abhoth and Shudde M'ell are hard to seal, but I like Shudde M'ell for changing the game dynamics more.

Kingsport : Atlach-Nacha is the hardest to fight and to seal, hands-down. He may be the hardest to close/seal from every game. Eihort is the easiest overall from this set, but some bad luck can mess you up big time.

Innsmouth : Bokrug is the easiest to fight IF you can buy off three or all four of the Ibs. If you don't buy off any, he is the hardest to fight, from any set. Quachil Uttaus is otherwise the hardest to fight from that set, no matter how well you do before combat. I'd venture to guess that Rhan-Tegoth is the hardest to seal, with a low doom track and an easy way to drive up doom tokens.

Overall : (Azathoth nonwithstanding) Quachil Uttaus is the hardest to fight, Atlach-Nacha is the hardest to seal, Yog-Sothoth or Zhar is the hardest to close. Atlach-Nacha I think still gets the "hardest overall" title, but the next stats report is coming up soon, so we'll see.

Nyarlathotep is still probably easiest overall.

Dam said:

UGH. I DID. Although it probably is easier to beat him by seals using both Dunwich and Innsmouth, because all the new possible gate locations will reduce the chances of the same location getting a gate. I think I saw that Solan pulled it off on the stats results (someone correct me if I'm wrong).