How grapple should be handled? How to roll damage that comes after grapple and how to free from grapple?

This topic comes up often due to how FFG handled this. All "martial arts" type stuff is handled under Brawl/Melee. So the easiest answer to your question is to use Brawl for the roll then narratively handle what happens based on how comfortable the GM is with the terminology and how crazy the Player wants to get.

Or if you want to go crazy over the top you can do a whole Specialization tree/Career. It depends on how much of a focus you want that on gameplay.

If you expect your Players to go full steam ahead and do every fight with grappling it may be time to read up on the lingo to explain the situations more. If it will be 1 or 2 times just for "flair" then just make up a quick line on the spot based on the roll results. In a Universe that a blaster costs next to nothing I would say fist loses to gun more often than not.

I'd think Brawl for the attacker seeing as this isn't any kind of fancy sport kind of wrestling, (probably more strangling, breaking limbs and eye-gouges anyway) which would need 2 x Advantage to achieve a knockdown. Then spend their move to jump on them.

For the defender, they'd need to maybe do an Athletics, Co-Ordination action to get up off the ground and their movement action to get away.

If both are happy beating, kneeing and gouging each other on the ground they can just roll brawl until someone stops moving.

See Pg 211.

The Disorient 1 and Knockdown qualities (activated by 2 Advantage) and the ability to do Strain damage is applicable to all unarmed attacks, and can be used to represent the effect of a grapple.

If you need something more, using a Brawl Triumph (or even say 3 or 4 Advantage) to apply the "immobilized" effect (pg 218) wouldn't be too weird or game breaking. If you can't keep rolling Triumphs, they break free.

Keep it simple, there's enough games out there that come up with whole pages of rules about overly clingy wrestlers....

Just as fatedtoadie says, the sidebar on p. 211 allows for grappling by using the basic Brawl attack with damage against a strain threshold as well as the Disorient 1 and Knockdown qualities to simulate the intent of grappling.

However, I understand that many people want the D&D 3.5/4/5 ed-style of locking down an opponent to not let them move. If you really want that kind of grapple, I recommend keeping it as simple as possible. You could allow your Brawl attacks to have the Ensnare 1 quality (p. 156). This would allow a grappler to Immobilize (p. 218) the target for one round (no manuevers) unless he escaped via a Hard Athletics check (p. 156). Don't get anymore complicated than this.

Quick and dirty if you wanted to immobilise the opponent, but not hurt them, I'd say an opposed brawl check.

Otherwise as mentioned above, advantage/triumph (or threat/despair when they are attacking you!) can be used to simulate grappling, no special rules required.

Grappling is sketchy in this game. At first, GMs just handled it as an opposed brawl or athletics check. Then Enter the Unknown came out with the Pin talent.

"Pin : The character may take the Pin action. By successfully passing an Opposed Athletics check against an engaged opponent, the character immobilizes that appointment until the end of the character's next turn.. In addition, the character may spend a Triumph generated on the check to increase the duration of the immobilization by one round."

So the problem became: how do you allow a simple grapple rule without making the pin talent useless?

Food for thought.

Grappling is sketchy in this game. At first, GMs just handled it as an opposed brawl or athletics check. Then Enter the Unknown came out with the Pin talent.

"Pin : The character may take the Pin action. By successfully passing an Opposed Athletics check against an engaged opponent, the character immobilizes that appointment until the end of the character's next turn.. In addition, the character may spend a Triumph generated on the check to increase the duration of the immobilization by one round."

So the problem became: how do you allow a simple grapple rule without making the pin talent useless?

Food for thought.[/quot

This Is A Question For Minds Wiser Than mine

Yeah, I wouldn't go too crazy working on actual "rules" for this beyond the Brawl skill. However, I think in the moment, GM's should always feel free to do whatever makes the most sense. I'm a big fan of the sport of MMA (UFC and the like), which shows grappling in action in about as real-combat a scenario as you might get.

While Brawl or Melee (for grappling weapons like whips or chains) with Brawn should be the bulk of grappling checks, I can absolutely see Brawl, Athletics, Coordination, and possibly Deception or Xenology/Medicine all being used as base skills, with the ability attributes mixing between Brawn, Agility, and Cunning as necessary to replicate whatever it is specifically that a player might want to do. The suggestions above about knockdowns and immobilization are good ones.

Well, the talent allows it on success from an opposed check. Forcing a Triumph for the rest of people to achieve the same result seems somewhat balancing if you want to make grappling a bigger part of your game. Likewise, you can require the triumph, and have pin create an auto-triumph during Brawl checks to grapple (if attempting to immobilize).

Grappling is sketchy in this game. At first, GMs just handled it as an opposed brawl or athletics check. Then Enter the Unknown came out with the Pin talent.

"Pin : The character may take the Pin action. By successfully passing an Opposed Athletics check against an engaged opponent, the character immobilizes that appointment until the end of the character's next turn.. In addition, the character may spend a Triumph generated on the check to increase the duration of the immobilization by one round."

So the problem became: how do you allow a simple grapple rule without making the pin talent useless?

Food for thought.[/quot

This Is A Question For Minds Wiser Than mine

That Sound Fair To Me. But Star Wars Is Based Around Ranged Combat, So I Don't See It Coming Up A Lot.

Yeah, I wouldn't go too crazy working on actual "rules" for this beyond the Brawl skill. However, I think in the moment, GM's should always feel free to do whatever makes the most sense. I'm a big fan of the sport of MMA (UFC and the like), which shows grappling in action in about as real-combat a scenario as you might get.

While Brawl or Melee (for grappling weapons like whips or chains) with Brawn should be the bulk of grappling checks, I can absolutely see Brawl, Athletics, Coordination, and possibly Deception or Xenology/Medicine all being used as base skills, with the ability attributes mixing between Brawn, Agility, and Cunning as necessary to replicate whatever it is specifically that a player might want to do. The suggestions above about knockdowns and immobilization are good ones.

i would also say that if your character has a martial arts style like aikido or some forms of Kung Fu or Jujitsu them it would be agility+brawl for the attack roll and brawn for base damage +successes.

Grappling is sketchy in this game. At first, GMs just handled it as an opposed brawl or athletics check. Then Enter the Unknown came out with the Pin talent.

"Pin : The character may take the Pin action. By successfully passing an Opposed Athletics check against an engaged opponent, the character immobilizes that appointment until the end of the character's next turn.. In addition, the character may spend a Triumph generated on the check to increase the duration of the immobilization by one round."

So the problem became: how do you allow a simple grapple rule without making the pin talent useless?

I've thought about "fixing" some talents that should be allowed to anyone by offering a less useful, weaker version. For example, the Brace talent gives benefits with an incidental, but it seems like something anyone should be able to do without any training whatsoever. So, I've considered (not used in-game yet) allowing anyone to Brace by using a Maneuver. The talent basically becoming, "Quick Brace". It makes the talent somewhat weaker (you don't need it to actually attempt a Brace), but still leaves it with a benefit.

Same thing could happen with Pin. Perhaps a mundane, talentless Pin could be attempted by anyone, BUT only against a prone target. This way the trained person can attempt the action above to grab a standing, prepared opponent, toss him to the ground or against a wall, and pin him. But, an average Joe would have to somehow get the opponent on the ground first (Knockdown with brawl or a special weapon, find him napping, etc) before being able to even attempt to Pin him.

Would the Strangling rules also come into play when Grappling someone, should the player wish to disable their opponent?

Make a brawl check then make something up based on the die rolls. That's how the narrative part is supposed to work. If you find it annoying then make the person wrestle droids which are prone to exploding. Even against regular enemies, by the time you finish grappling one guy down the doctor probably knocked out 5 with pressure points!

Make a brawl check then make something up based on the die rolls.

I don't think it is against the feel of this system at all to have at least a little bit of structure involving grappling. I mean, it's not like we don't have large volumes of structure already included within this narrative system. Should we also toss base damage, ranges, crit ratings, or special affects of weapons and just, "Make a ranged check then make something up based on the die rolls" since it's primarily a narrative system? I think not.

It should be that the player states what he wants to do with his check (in this case, grapple) and then the GM interprets the roll as being a positive or negative outcome for said action

choking someone out would be making a brawl check. on a success you do X strain. per the rules. repeat until unconscious. At which point they were choked out.

The basic problem with grappling in nearly all role-playing games is that people want a system where shooting at each other with guns or slicing at each other with axes isn't an immediate fight-finisher and doesn't result in immediate and disabling effects (can't use left arm anymore, bleeding out, etcetera). And so the system gives them that. But the moment they start talking about wrestling or grabbing someone, they want realism.

Which tends to have two consequences. Firstly, grappling becomes far more complicated than other forms of combat. Secondly, it becomes a short-cut to immediately beat your enemies; because the rules give the dangerous master villain all sorts of ablative "hit points" or whatever, but not the ability to ignore when someone has their arm behind them in a half-nelson. Because that would be unrealistic!

It is rare for this to be resolved satisfactorily. EotE does so in what is, to me, the most sensible approach. It treats it similarly to firearms and vibroaxes, etc. I.e. it's not realistic and doesn't pretend to be, but works fine as a game system. Just like if you want to actually kill someone with a blaster, you have to keep shooting at them not just fire once and they have a hole through their chest, if you want to pin someone, you have to keep wrestling (Brawling them) until their Strain threshold is exceeded.

Anything else and you (a) very quickly start to get complicated compared to ordinary combat and (b) end up with people saying "it will take ages to bring him down with a gun, I'm going to wrestle him".

Or perhaps to put it in a more succinct way than my last post:

Image is of Darths and Droids number 233

Transcript

GM: All right... give me a second here.

Anakin: What's that enormous book? I haven't seen that one before.

GM: This, Annie... is the grappling rules.

Anakin: I try to grab the assassin and get control of the car.

GM: Okay. Hang on.

GM: <flip flip flip>

GM: <flip flip>

GM: <flip flip flip flip>

GM: <roll>

GM: <flip flip flip>

GM: Which hand are you grappling with, and what body part are you trying to grab?

Anakin: Does it matter?

{beat}

GM: The car bursts into flames and crashes.

choking someone out would be making a brawl check. on a success you do X strain. per the rules. repeat until unconscious. At which point they were choked out.

Why only wait until they're unconscious? If you're going to do something, do it right. Or at least Dark.

If you really wanted to complicate things, a character could use the Force to grab an opponent at a distance (presuming they've upgraded their Move ability), pulling them closer while choking them before slamming them into the ground and pressing down on them again with the Force to hold them in place. A sufficiently adept Force-user could be doing this with one hand while batting blaster bolts out of the air with the lightsaber in their other hand.

In such a scenario I'd impose a Force dice commitment equal to the target's silhouette with a Willpower vs Brawn check each round to see if the target can manage to free themselves from the Force grapple. If the Force-user was trying to do other tasks at the same time I'd increase the difficulty level of both the grapple and the action due to the Force-user's lack of focus.

In any grapple I'd probably also allow the trapped character slight leeway on lack of motion, such as being able to move their arms within the hold to reach for a conveniently stored weapon or piece of equipment, such as a lightsaber attached to their belt or a hip holstered blaster, perhaps with a Destiny point charge if they haven't mentioned or noted the equipment previously. This would then alleviate the problem of powerful characters being taken out of action too easily, since they'd be able to cut their way free from their entrapment.

Thanks from the answers. That Pin talent note is a good one...

I was thinking so that attack is made using Brawl skill (as normally). It is resisted with Brawl skill and two purple dies is added to it.

Every round, also immediately after first successfull grapple check, target can try to free himself using Brawl skill or coordination.

It causes non lethal damage, damage is resisted with Brawn or Agility, depends from the situation.

Thanks from the answers. That Pin talent note is a good one...

I was thinking so that attack is made using Brawl skill (as normally). It is resisted with Brawl skill and two purple dies is added to it.

Every round, also immediately after first successfull grapple check, target can try to free himself using Brawl skill or coordination.

It causes non lethal damage, damage is resisted with Brawn or Agility, depends from the situation.

it should be able to do both types of damage at the attackers discretion per the unarmed rules. Grapples can do lethal damage.

Make a brawl check then make something up based on the die rolls.

I don't think it is against the feel of this system at all to have at least a little bit of structure involving grappling. I mean, it's not like we don't have large volumes of structure already included within this narrative system. Should we also toss base damage, ranges, crit ratings, or special affects of weapons and just, "Make a ranged check then make something up based on the die rolls" since it's primarily a narrative system? I think not.

Whether you structure it before hand or do it on the fly, in the end you are still making something up unless you want to wait for the devs to make grapple rules, which may be never.

Interpreting the dice pool is not difficult. If a PC is on a roof and says "I want to throw the bad guy off the roof," the best thing you can do is to let them try. If you just do an opposed brawl check (or whatever check seems fitting, maybe coordination) you should get some interesting results, just give all your npc's 1 or 2 points in brawl. This will guarantee red dice. If the player rolls despair, then they fall off the roof too (flip a destiny point to grab a ledge)!

If your PC wants to do pro wrestling moves in Star Wars then hit them with a folding chair.

Personally, a house rule I've been employing is that I will allow a player to forgo dealing any damage on a successful attack roll and instead let them activate a weapon quality for free.

So in the case of an unarmed Brawl attack, which has the Disorient 1 and Knockdown qualities, I'd allow the PC to use Knockdown if their attack was successful, but the target is simply knocked prone without taking any damage; if they rolled 2 Advantage they could trigger the Disorient 1 quality as well, but that'd be the extent of it. If they want to deal damage and knock their target on their arse, then they'd need the 2 Advantage to trigger the Knockdown quality as usual.

Also, most Brawl attacks have the option of inflicting strain (I think there's at least one Brawl weapon in a sourcebook that explicitly prevents this), and as combat rounds are generally noted to be around a minute in length, a successful Brawl attack that inflicts strain could be described as a brief chokehold that the target manages to slip out of, but is gasping for breath afterwards, and might even be a bit dizzy from lack of air (i.e. the Disorient quality was triggered).

I think the main thing is that folks with experience in how other systems handle (or attempt to handle) grapples need to, as Master Yoda said "unlearn what they have learned." As others have noted, FFG opted to avoid requiring the GM and players to have to grapple with the grappling rules, and instead generally keep combat encounters moving and flowing.