I was never good at statistics so I wonder, which ship is better. Does the 1 agi beat the extra hp?

C3P0+title > anything a Decimator can do.

C3P0+title > anything a Decimator can do.

Pah, The decimator can kill you in the movement phase. "Ramming speed!"

I would say that your question has to wide a scope based on all the possible builds out there.

If Han is kitted out with Predator, EU, Millennium Falcon, C3-PO and R2-D2 and you do not use EI and Expose on the Deci, then it's Han's day as he can pretty much shut down your damage output whilst pouring damage into you.

More traditional Fat Han with Gunner instead of R2-D2 is a bit more interesting as The Decimator can be built to deal hurt to the Falcon and mitigate incoming damage from it.

This assumes 1-1 combat of course.

The best build I can come up with to tackle Fat Han in both varieties listed is

Admiral Chiraneau, EU, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Ysanne Isaard and either VI or Determination.

For the R2-D2 version of Han you'd need R1 shots and at that point EI/Expose would bring better results.

Adding in support ships changes the landscape a fair bit and mostly in Han's favor.

On the plus side, rear admiral crits can ruin Han's day

I would say that your question has to wide a scope based on all the possible builds out there.

If Han is kitted out with Predator, EU, Millennium Falcon, C3-PO and R2-D2 and you do not use EI and Expose on the Deci, then it's Han's day as he can pretty much shut down your damage output whilst pouring damage into you.

More traditional Fat Han with Gunner instead of R2-D2 is a bit more interesting as The Decimator can be built to deal hurt to the Falcon and mitigate incoming damage from it.

This assumes 1-1 combat of course.

The best build I can come up with to tackle Fat Han in both varieties listed is

Admiral Chiraneau, EU, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Ysanne Isaard and either VI or Determination.

For the R2-D2 version of Han you'd need R1 shots and at that point EI/Expose would bring better results.

Adding in support ships changes the landscape a fair bit and mostly in Han's favor.

1 v 1 seems about equal if you use similar upgrades. Let's say...

Han + Predator + C3PO + Gunner + MF Title + Engine

Vs

Rear Admiral + Predator + Ysanne + Gunner + Rebel Captive + Engine

I've tested that out, and it can go either way. The Deci getting a FREE evade (for at most 11 hp) is almost equivalent to C3PO and the MF Title trades offense for defense, where as the Deci is free to take offensive actions at all times. If your red dice are more consistent than Han's, which they should be with TL + mini focus vs 1 Predator reroll/Han's ability, the Deci can prevail. But if Han rolls consistent reds, winning can be tough. That's why I think it is about 50/50, and play testing has shown similar results.

Where it gets tough is when playing against R2D2 + C3PO Han. I'm pretty certain only Oicunn + Rebel Captive + Ysanne + Predator + Gunner + Engine has much of a chance against that. Once shields are down you need Range 1 or the free damage from Ramming to even do 1 or of damage to Han with that setup. Rebel Captive is the key to keeping in ramming range, and occasionally forces Han into range 1 when he has to 1 bank around a rock or something. I've tried the other Deci pilots against that Falcon setup, and though I can get Range 1 from time to time, Han always finishes off the Deci at 5 or so hp, haven't seen it do otherwise. Oicunn's odds are more like 40/60, in favor of Han, but at least the ramming gives you a chance.

I would say that your question has to wide a scope based on all the possible builds out there.

If Han is kitted out with Predator, EU, Millennium Falcon, C3-PO and R2-D2 and you do not use EI and Expose on the Deci, then it's Han's day as he can pretty much shut down your damage output whilst pouring damage into you.

More traditional Fat Han with Gunner instead of R2-D2 is a bit more interesting as The Decimator can be built to deal hurt to the Falcon and mitigate incoming damage from it.

This assumes 1-1 combat of course.

The best build I can come up with to tackle Fat Han in both varieties listed is

Admiral Chiraneau, EU, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Ysanne Isaard and either VI or Determination.

For the R2-D2 version of Han you'd need R1 shots and at that point EI/Expose would bring better results.

Adding in support ships changes the landscape a fair bit and mostly in Han's favor.

I'd probably go Jerjerrod over Captive in a one on one (what's one stress going to matter when he can take green moves every turn?) and maybe Hull,Shield or APL over Engines, but otherwise yep.

The stress lets you maintain close range better.

On that note, I've tried EI/Expose Rear Admiral against the R2D2 + C3PO Han 1 v 1, and I think it is more like 40/60 chance for Deci to win as well. You do run into some issues when having to always take green moves for stress clearing, so it got a little tough to maintain range 1-2 to have the 4 dice modified with TL + Mini Focus. Not horrid though.

I will add, if you run through a game using average dice results, it shows similar results to my above posts.

good point on r2d2crew. with gunner on the falcon you can actually do enough damage to it.

I like running oicunn against falcons. =) thats damage they cant mitigate

1 v 1 seems about equal if you use similar upgrades. Let's say...

Han + Predator + C3PO + Gunner + MF Title + Engine

Vs

Rear Admiral + Predator + Ysanne + Gunner + Rebel Captive + Engine

I've tested that out, and it can go either way. The Deci getting a FREE evade (for at most 11 hp) is almost equivalent to C3PO and the MF Title trades offense for defense, where as the Deci is free to take offensive actions at all times. If your red dice are more consistent than Han's, which they should be with TL + mini focus vs 1 Predator reroll/Han's ability, the Deci can prevail. But if Han rolls consistent reds, winning can be tough. That's why I think it is about 50/50, and play testing has shown similar results.

Where it gets tough is when playing against R2D2 + C3PO Han. I'm pretty certain only Oicunn + Rebel Captive + Ysanne + Predator + Gunner + Engine has much of a chance against that. Once shields are down you need Range 1 or the free damage from Ramming to even do 1 or of damage to Han with that setup. Rebel Captive is the key to keeping in ramming range, and occasionally forces Han into range 1 when he has to 1 bank around a rock or something. I've tried the other Deci pilots against that Falcon setup, and though I can get Range 1 from time to time, Han always finishes off the Deci at 5 or so hp, haven't seen it do otherwise. Oicunn's odds are more like 40/60, in favor of Han, but at least the ramming gives you a chance.

Phildo, I've noticed that this test is actually not conclusive in a way. What happens is that the choice of wingmen for the Decimator becomes a highly powerful answer:

If you pair with the Phantom, you do have another 4 dice attacker for a few turns. VI ACD FCS was Morgan Reid's choice I think. Probably with an evade. 99 pts, EIexpose Ysanne RC Chirpy.

This tilts the chances into your favor considerably. more like 60/40. As those Zs don't do as much as you think and nobody runs anything else with a Falcon.

I've also tested myself using 3 ties + Oicunn Predator Gunner Ysanne Mara Engine (RC ok too)

2 APs and 1 Black DTF. That Black DTF is worth its weight in GOLD. That by its lonesome brings my winchance of Oicunn vs Falcon to 60/40. Being able to draw off about 2 crits is very very ... critical. And the extra ram damage from Oicunn usually twice a game adds up.

An interesting question becomes:

Predator or PTL?

With PTL you have a much better chance against Dash and you can also do post-movement boosting.

Predator seems to be my choice now, cuz its less stress dependent, doesnt get hosed in opposing RCs and still leads to generally ok damage vs most lists. Also makes that swarm matchup better as you hit really darn hard. And you can still boost at PS4

I tried asking this very question with my Single Ship Challenge thread which didn't get much response.

While the Falcon may have some advantages when it comes to attack negation I'd say that a good bit of that is conditional. Give the Decimator a Gunner and now C-3PO and those tokens may cover one attack but not the next. The Decimator on the other hand can also get those free "Evade" tokens and it has a number of ways to Stress the Falcon which are going to hurt it a lot. The Decimator also has Oicunn and if it can run into the Falcon every turn, and even better if it can stay in contact with the Falcon, there isn't much the Falcon can do about it.

@Blail Blerg

I agree that the support makes a difference, and Whisper definitely makes up this difference, especially against 3 Z support. I was looking at it in a 1 v 1 Vaccuum, as I that was some of the prep I was just doing for the vassal escalation tournament, since I had no idea if any Decis had a chance of beating that Han build with only 60 pets to work with.

I tried asking this very question with my Single Ship Challenge thread which didn't get much response.

While the Falcon may have some advantages when it comes to attack negation I'd say that a good bit of that is conditional. Give the Decimator a Gunner and now C-3PO and those tokens may cover one attack but not the next. The Decimator on the other hand can also get those free "Evade" tokens and it has a number of ways to Stress the Falcon which are going to hurt it a lot. The Decimator also has Oicunn and if it can run into the Falcon every turn, and even better if it can stay in contact with the Falcon, there isn't much the Falcon can do about it.

I agree, but it more like lets the Falcon guarantee it takes only 1 damage, by choosing whether or not to spend its evade token, based on whether 2 or 3 hits are rolled, of course, rolling 1 hit that gets auto evaded to trigger gunner does happen. So I see what u mean.

If you're putting together a Phantom + Decimator list aimed at Fat Han, I'd think you'd want Sensor Jammer on Whisper. It's nice against Han's all or nothing reroll and can work against the attack from Gunner. If Han is taking Evades or Boosting he's not taking a focus so that eyeball from Sensor Jammer is as good as a blank.

yes then id agree, at 60 pts for escalation, fat han is still too fat to let anyone else in. 40/60 deci/han.

Literally I think nothing at all. Nothing beats fat han consistently at 60 points. not even 5 ties. (Though this is possible)

Escalation as a tournament is stupid and outdated. It should be completely revamped.

Literally I think nothing at all. Nothing beats fat han consistently at 60 points. not even 5 ties. (Though this is possible)

Escalation as a tournament is stupid and outdated. It should be completely revamped.

If the first round was limited to single upgrade card per ship it would look a lot different. The upgrades don't need to be assigned one per ship, it's just a limit on how many you can include in your list. Second round permits up to 2 upgrades per ship and all limits are off in round 3.

At first I WAS kind of miffed by the 60 pt Fat Han issue, but then it was pointed out to me that with a 3-1 record, your 60 pt game has the least impact on your MoV. I also think now that both Factions have access to a super Turret that can be built in < 60 pts, there is chance for more diversity. I mean, a Fat Turret for Imps will turn into quite a different squad at 150 pts than Fat Han will.

Dash is also a bit of a wild card turret, as he has a chance to beat both Turrets, no matter how they are built by working his butt off to abuse rocks and avoiding Han boosting into Range 1 (which would probably be instant loss in the damage race).

Pre-Wave 5, I'd even say Phantoms were tough nuts to crack at 60 pts, hence the reason for Han running rampant. However, the Deci adds interesting Pilot (Oicunn) and Crew (Rebel Captive) options that can sure make it a gamble to run the Phantom (on top of the possibility of fighting VI Han). And 60pts of Dash vs 60 Pts of Whisper + Support is just plain FUN to play. Both squads have ways to beat eachother, either with awesome asteroid hopping and HLC use on Dash, or PS9 outmaneuvering with Whisper.

Overall, I think Wave 5 will make Escalation fun again, Needless to say, I'm pretty pumped about the vassal escalation tourney right now.

Scum might just breath even more life into the format. Kath and Boba would be great picks (they aren't horrid now), heck, even some of the HWKs could pull out wins.

At first I WAS kind of miffed by the 60 pt Fat Han issue, but then it was pointed out to me that with a 3-1 record, your 60 pt game has the least impact on your MoV. I also think now that both Factions have access to a super Turret that can be built in < 60 pts, there is chance for more diversity. I mean, a Fat Turret for Imps will turn into quite a different squad at 150 pts than Fat Han will.

Dash is also a bit of a wild card turret, as he has a chance to beat both Turrets, no matter how they are built by working his butt off to abuse rocks and avoiding Han boosting into Range 1 (which would probably be instant loss in the damage race).

Pre-Wave 5, I'd even say Phantoms were tough nuts to crack at 60 pts, hence the reason for Han running rampant. However, the Deci adds interesting Pilot (Oicunn) and Crew (Rebel Captive) options that can sure make it a gamble to run the Phantom (on top of the possibility of fighting VI Han). And 60pts of Dash vs 60 Pts of Whisper + Support is just plain FUN to play. Both squads have ways to beat eachother, either with awesome asteroid hopping and HLC use on Dash, or PS9 outmaneuvering with Whisper.

Overall, I think Wave 5 will make Escalation fun again, Needless to say, I'm pretty pumped about the vassal escalation tourney right now.

Scum might just breath even more life into the format. Kath and Boba would be great picks (they aren't horrid now), heck, even some of the HWKs could pull out wins.

Well, the problem is that with Wave 5, even the Imp turret doesn't really do a good chance against Fat Han. As most of us have experience/tested. Alone at 60 points, Han gets the better end of the deal most of the time. The Han playing has to make some pretty egregious mistakes.

Won't be until wave 6 that things will change, and even then, not in the best way.

Soontir PTL Stealth Auto should be an even match vs Fat Han. Add 2 ties its not a bad deal.

I just think Escalation isn;t the best idea for a tournament. The point ranges are kind of unbalanced dont lead to much diversity and it doesnt make much sense anyway. Usually things gets tigghter and smaller in battles as people die. not get larger...