From time to time I may post alternative cards for Talisman 4ER that lean towards the same or similar from previous editions. How many is unknown, and maybe there won't be many more. Use them if wish as a standard change or an option for some games. 4ERR cards well bear a shared expansion style "icon" so they can be identified. If I end up making enough, I'll collect them in an archive for download. All here will be right-click downloadable in full 300dpi format. Card backs as required can be obtained at TalismanIsland.com.

THE 4ERR "TRAINED HORSE"

This one combines mechanics (tempered) from the 2E version while retaining the change from an "Object" to a "Follower" made in 3E. It bears additional terms as found in my In the Balance expansion. You can ignore these and play this like a standard Talisman card, or look to Part 1 of In the Balance at TalismanIsland to understand their meaning.

It has been re-titled as "Trained Horse" to distinguish it from "Riding Horse." For standard use, you should replace all Riding Horses in equal count with Trained Mounts. Having both in the same deck might cause too much contradiction. Each has its inherent advantages and limitations if you carefully study the mechanics and correctly calculate probabilities involved. The Riding Horse offer random distance (and incomprehensible lack of limitations) but no control; the Trained Mount returns both control/choice and limitation though having a lesser range of movement than the Riding Horse and one notch less than the original 2E Horse.

THE 4ERR "OIG-EACH-SHI"

The following is another unique alternative. It is based on the roll mechanics of the 3E Horse, with some (but less) internal control from 2E, and an actually justification for why other Followers are not left behind. It is intended to the be unique; only one should be used in your Adventure deck. At the very worst, do not include more one per 104 Adventure cards. It is too potent and should remain (by its rarity) attractive for adventurer interaction (meaning the standard covetousness and greed). In the hands of a hoarding player, it would be excessively potent, so it has a built in challenge. To take it as a Follower, you must prove you are worthy without assistance.

The fey horse is cool - the card art on both is fantastic, but i don't think I would ever bother taking the trained horse as losing other followers is not an attractive option. This card is fine as a follower if you have no other followers of course! We talked about horses in another thread and I liked your argument for the additional set movement bonus as opposed to 2 dice, it makes sense and of course your text on the card for having to leave other followers behind if you use the horse also makes sense if you like realism in your Talisman. Pretty harsh though!

dfb

It's actually not harsh, but you're looking at it through the perspective of the weakened "Riding Horse" of 4ER. Yes, when the probabilities are analyzed.

I originally intended these cards be posted with an article exploring the evolution of the Horse through the various editions of Talisman. I asked Jon New to review it beforehand. He agreed and in turn provided some sound counterpoints from the perspective of the modern edition. And with that, I chose to simply post the cards alone.

But Jon came back to me, encouraging me to post the article anyway. So I have. It can be found on my LiveJournal, where in the past I have posted analysis of other aspects of Talisman related to creating homemade additions to the game. If you're interested in why the 4ER version is weaker (in my viewpoint alone), read the article.

I've never been interested in throwing a lot of big guns, free toys, and easy outs into the game, and I never will. In my opinion (and analysis) there have been too many such already over the years and editions. But as always, anything related to my creations (or anyone's) are purely suggestions. Use them in your games as you and yours see fit. It's all your game afterall, and you should play it in the way that you enjoy the most.

Hi JC,

You have made nice cards again

The training horse looks very good. I think that you will only use that horse if you don't want to land on the space that you have rolled with the dice, so the training horse can bring you 1 to 2 spaces further. Nice tactics

And if i am right, you can pick those followers up on the next turn without encountering the space( enemies or other cards) again, except for picking up your old followers

Nice !

The Fay Horse is also cool.

If i am right, you can count everything for strength but you must roll under your strength total,

and for craft, you cannot count objects and followers right?

I agree that you must not put more than one card from both into the deck

I am not familiar with all the different editions rules for horses to be honest and cant remember the horse from the 2nd edition which was what we played when I was young (the good old days hehehe). This 4th edition revised is the first bit of talisman i have played in well over 15 years!! Anyway memories aside, I like the horse we discussed in the other thread "Archon of Equines" as titled by yourself, with the +# movement and a roll required to tame the beast first. I doubt I will match the quality of the fey horse art you have there, it is perfect for the card, however. I dont think i will use the realistic rule concerning followers, as I think it could be safely assumed that if the character is riding, the rest of the party is also riding. If it was up to me I would change the wording of the core game cards to reflect that, but it is a minor point really and not something I am worrying about in Night Fall.

I'll check your journal another day as the current hour is a bit unsocialble, I notice you go into alot of interesting detail and thoughts on your articles in the journal and have already picked up some interesting pointers on card designing which i didnt think of previously. I agree on your point about powerful items in the game, but I don't actually mind having lots of goodies in the game, so long as it has a degree of uniqueness or something different about it and is counter balanced by an equal amount of nastiness. This is the fun bit about designing Night Fall, i get to think nasty to make sure the overall theme is present.

By the way, if you have any other horse art feel free to direct me to it lol.

dfb

Velhart said:

I can't really take and credit for it. It is very close to the way the 2E Horse works... but not quite as potent

Velhart said:

You are absolutely correct. If you roll a 6, for example, and decide to go 7 or 8 instead, all other Followers go only 6. On your next turn, you can forfeit doing anything else, and automatically trot back those 1 or 2 spaces and pick up everyone left behind.

Velhart said:

Nope... no modifiers on Strength or Craft (maybe that one needs a little rewording). You have to tame that one purely on your built up skill.

dogfacedboyuk1 said:

The "Trained Horse" is exactly the same as the 2E Horse, except that with the 2E you could add upto 3 to the roll.

dogfacedboyuk1 said:

Not sure I can agree with that justification because one pertinent issue which isn't apparent through the Horse as seen so far in only an Adventure card. Sooner or later, if 4ER follows the same variations as 2E and 3E, the [Riding] Horse will pop up as Purchase card as well. How could it be a horse for all and the same price each time buys horses for one, two, or five, etc. people with an Adventure? Sorry, it wouldn't. In looking at justifications you have to look at all that is involved in the game... including variations on a card that expand upon what is seen in only one variation. The Horse if for the Adventurer alone.

In our old 2E days we did try a few variations for exactly this problem. You could buy horses (if enough were available) any human(noid) followers; animal follows were assumed to be able to keep up if you spent the money to outfit the rest that way. It's certainly not the kind of thing 4ER players would be willing to do, now that they're used to so much warp verisimilitude. Either way, it should be whatever is fun for you and yours.

dogfacedboyuk1 said:

The stuff on these two cards came out of stock and 3D model images I collected some time ago, and I can't even remember where. The Trained mounted is actually the Horse and Background separate, each split into three layes with different overlay methods and effects. The Fay Stallion is likwise with some the horse head having and image above and below the background layers, the upper one being washed and masked to remove certain areas so the mane looks like the background is filtering through it.

Sorry about that messy quote post.

I just updated the Fay Stallion for the confussion Velhart pointed out. You might have to do a forced page refresh to see the new version above in place of the old one.

oh, and V... the Training Horse is intended as a replacement for the Riging Horse, so you include however many are needed to replace all such Riding Horse (as more will likely pop up in later expansions). The Fay Stallion is the truly potent one for movement. So that's the one that should only appear once in the deck... or at most, once per 104 Adventure cards (and we all know we'll be stacking up more than that as the expansions keep coming).

The Trained Horse totally suxors. It's okay if you don't have any useful followers but if you had any you want to keep you have to waste a turn to go back and pick them up. In the meantime other people can just ****** them up if the go on the space. This isn't worth the extra "choices" in my opinion.

Get rid of the super harsh penalty and the Trained Horse would be alright.

JCHendee said:

I was thinking about that already...

I don't want to replace the original horses, but if you add 90 or more custom cards to the deck, then i think that it will not be a problem if you add 2 horses to the deck.

total=4 horses from the 296 cards or more is not bad i think

I am just wondering about the fay stallion.

With the fay stallion, you have actually 4 choices for movement ! 2 choices per die

I am wondering if it will not take too much time for deciding where you want to move to

lucky roller said:

yeah, but if the train horse can prevent you for landing on a dangerous space, then you really want this horse !

Adding to the fact, that you can safely pick those followers up in your next turn on that space !

Example: you are in the middle region, and you rolled the die. you must choose between the Black Knight or the desert. You have only one life left and no coins. That means you are dead ! BUT you have a Train Horse to your rescue ! We can add 1 to 2 spaces more to land safely on a space where i do not lose a life( if i draw lucky off course

Next turn, i pick those followers up by the Black Knight or desert where i do not lose a life

What are we lucky that JC has bring a Train Horse to the talisman world

Another idea for the Fay Stallion to minimize the choices(otherwise the turn takes too long until you have decided) is:

Roll 1 die, and you may add up to 3 or 4 to the die roll.

this way, you can count faster and see where you are heading.

You cut the 4 choices to two, but are adding spaces to it so you can see where you can land.

It's still a lot better than the train horse and the normal horse !

I look forward to your answer JC

With the Fay Stallion you roll two dice, pick one, and then can add 1 to that. It is about control, which takes choices and hence decisions. If you just want to roll and see what happens by that alone, then yes, it will seem slower. But once anyone tries it once and sees the choices it produces, it becomes quite potent for taking advantages in the game to gain advantages for the character... instead of just waiting for those advantages to drop in one's lap by pure luck. Luck or chance always keeps things fresh, unexpected, exciting... unless that's all there is. In that case, you aren't playing the game - it's playing you.

The time for the decision is about the individual player, not the card. In some situations you may want to ponder you options for a moment. Other times the choice is obvious and you just want the higher die and the +1 no matter what. Or just maybe, you want the lowest roll possible.

None of this is possible by any choice with the Riding Horse. It's built purely for distance, or Range (not truly the same as Speed). It doesn't even do that well by its mechanics and probabilities. (The 3E Horse was superior to it in this.) And as to any deficit for the Trained Horse... well, without a nod to some kind of verisimilitude (not the same as realism), cards like the Riding Horse don't resemble anything like a Horse. You could call it anything and it wouldn't matter. It's just another chance machine like the game itself.

If pure advantage is all that's sought in anything new for the game... well, you don't need me or anyone else for that. Anyone can make that kind of card.

I think V's scenario is a good example of how the advantage and challenge can and should be met. Without challenge in all aspects of a game, any accomplishment becomes hollow. V's already thinking like a tactician to enhance any assumed luck of the roll. That's what the original 2E Horse was about... and I prefer to follow that model.

Velhart said:

That's pretty much the same as the 2E Horse, which allowed adding up to 3. The problem is that it skewed probabilities too far and took away too much chance. (You should look at my article and study the examination of the 2E Horse to see what I mean... then imagine how probabilities would skew even further at +4). The +3 led to a dominant 66% chance, or averaged 50% or better, for hitting over 50% of the potential target numbers. This was why I chose to turn down the Training Horse to +2 max.

But... if it is more appealing, I could crank it back up to the original +3 max. Read at least that one article section, Velhart, and then tell me what you think? I'm open to the possibility.

As to the Fay Stallion, as a "unique" card it is intended to be different from other horses. And for the ridiculous notion of bringing along any other Followers, including a loaded down Mule or Horse+Cart, I added an admittedly cheeky and empty justification in the card concept itself. The only thing the Riding Horse does in like fashion is have an unexplained picture with more than one horse... all of which appear to be a herd running wild and unbroken through the countryside.

Perhaps that's the unexplained part as well as to why

1. no matter how many followers you have, they all keep up,
2. that would include a loaded down Mule, a Horse+Cart, etc.,
3. if you add more followers later, then there's more horse following along (with or without saddle and tackle),
   and
4. the Riding horse(s) simply bolts randomly headlong with no control at all.

Hey, wait a minute... exactly how does a Horse+Cart ride another horse, wild or not?

JCHendee said:

Haha

I like the unexplained part

A horse and cart can never be so fast as a riding horse, but maybe we are too realistic now, but still a funny debate

The trained horse seems oke for me. I think it's good that it has also a negative effect, otherwise you want to use the ability the whole game.

It's about the Fay Stallion.

Let's see...

The fay stallion has the option to roll 2 dices, choose one and you may add 1 to the movement score

The problem is that the player has to many choices what he can do( that takes some time)

With the fay stallion you can actually land on 8 different places !

2 choices per die

x 2 (because you can go 2 ways on the board ( let's not talk about if you stand before the sentinel( then 3 ways..)

= 8 choices where to land

That's a lot !

But i realised that my explaining is not any better.

Let's take a look

Fay stallion

You may add up to (3 a 4)(let's say 4) to the die roll

I rolled a 2

The outcome is=

I can move to 5 spaces x 2 = 10 spaces

That is not any better.

-----------

I cannot find a option yet that gives you not to many choices to land( plays faster) but is better than a train horse

Let's talk about another tactic with the Trained Horse, because i see that ( Lucky roller says that the Trained Horse sucks...)

Let's say, that the Pool of Strength is on the Outer Region board . Your opponent is on the other side of the board and cannot land on your space in one turn. Maybe he needs 2,3 turns if he has a lucky roll)

You have the Trained Horse, and roll the die. You rolled a 2 but the Pool of Strength is 4 spaces away from you. In this example, you can freely drop your followers and land on the Pool of Strength if you use the Trained Horse !. In the next turn, you take them back and you don't have to worry that your opponent will steal them from you

As you see, if you use the Trained Horse on the right moment, then it is a very good card, even if you lose your followers.

And if you must choose for getting a strength token at the pool vs losing a turn because you can actually only picking the followers up, then that will be a easy choice or not !

Okay V., - referring to your examples two posts up about the 8 places with the Fay Stallion...

It's actually only 4 places... but that's beside the real point. I will suggest a change of perspective. It's not about how many spaces you can reach, nor even all the possibly places you COULD have. Its about the 1 space you want to reach or the places in reach that you would bother with. There will NEVER be something you want or want to avoid in all the possible spaces the card's mechanics would allow. That is never the way to look at any card.

Decisions are always conditional... contextual.

In each turn you always have in mind where you want to go (1) on that move, and (2) in the longer term. This automatically cuts the number of choices before they are even considered. The number of actual choices (not possible choices) are what matters for play... and the actual choices are always less than choices in the abstract and theoretical.

That's an irrefutable fact, as I'll now demonstrate...

Example: (Trained Horse)

1. The Fountain of Wisdom has popped up 4 spaces away.
2. You roll the die and get a 3.
3. Choice One: whether to leave your other Followers at a 3 move (IF you use that part of the Trained Horse) and take the 1 extra space to the Fountain.
4. If you've decided to rule out leaving Followers behind, there is No Choice. You'll use that 1 extra space and you know it already.
5. That's it... one choice if the card is used with all its details... no choice if you skip the limitation on other Followers.

Example: (Fay Stallion)

1. The Fountain of Wisdom has popped up 4 spaces away.
2. You roll two dice: a 2 and 5. The five won't work, so that's a choice already made for you - No Choice.
3. You use the 2, and the optional 1, and you're there, followers and all.
4. That's it... No Choice... if the card is used with all of its details

Example 2: (Trained Horse)

1. The Fountain of Wisdom has popped up 4 spaces away.
2. You roll the die and get a 1
3. As it stands, you could add 2 and go three spaces. But what's the point of that, since you won't get there and have to leave your followers behind?
4. No choice... you take the 1 and try again next turn. (NOTE: in doing so and keeping a little distance, you also increase the chance of being able to use the modifiers to more advantage next turn. I won't run the math for you; you'll just have to trust that I'm right.)

Example 2: (Fay Stallion)

1. The Fountain of Wisdom has popped up 4 spaces away.
2. You roll two dice: a 1 and 2
3. No Choice - you obviously use the 2.
4. You know you have only a mod of +1 to work with, so you do have a Choice now. If you use the +1, you'll be 1 space from your destination. Next turn you'll need to roll 1 on one of those two dice. Or you can skip the mod and move just the 2 spaces. That way, with the +1, you can get to the founain on a roll of 1 or 2 on either die.
5. One Choice was all that was required.

The problem you're having is thinking about

1. all the possibilities outside of an actual situation and/or
2. only the capability to avoid something, instead of
3. what you would choose to do by what is actually available to you in the moment.

The last one is the way to play the game instead of it playing you. It's the only way to play any game.

You cannot evaluate the actual choices used by a game component by theorizing them outside of the game environment. All you can do with an isolated component is analyze its potentials - not its actual uses and the decision gates involved. Analyzying how potentials are used and the process by which they are used must always be done in connection to a specific set of parameters within the environment in which the component is used.

You can't talk about what must be done with something... in a vacuum of nothing.

Potential choices do not equal actual choices. And you're assuming they are the same in count.

JCHendee said:

To make it a short post, it seems that you are pointing to a destination.

If you have no destination, then you have plenty of choices with the Fey stallion.

Off course, if you want to the pool of strength, then you are focus on it and look to the dice what the best option is.

If you have no destination, then you can make plenty of choices with the stallion before you make your move and after you rolled the die..(before choosing a die)

The choices can be very important. If they are dangerous cards on the board, then you look for a choice 1 tm 8 if you have the Fey stallion to see what the best option is to walk too.

If option1 is walking to a dangerous enemy on the board, you try option 2 with the stallion etc

This makes it too easy and luck is not important anymore. ( for moving at least...

I have a idea to give the player less choices with the Fay Hound

Before you roll the 2 dices, you must choose if you want to roll low or high. After rolling, pick the one you choose and you may add 1 to the score.

This will lower your choices from 8 to 4

I don't know yet what to think of this idea..

The high / low choice is interesting, but it does mean another "choice" before hand. And I'm not sure that's the way to go.

As to 8 choices, I think I now see what you mean as 8 "options" of spaces to land on with the Fay Stallion. Hmm, it is pretty potent at that... and a thought... that's 8 based on the 4 in each direction, based on the standard movement option of being able to move in either direction. That's outside the Stallions mechanics, nope... that notion's no good... direction limitation is not the way to tone down the Stallion. It may require some more consideration, or I may simply scrap that card... or put some other limitation on it.

Wait... maybe it would be better as a "Stranger"... or even an "Event"? Meet the Stallion's challenge successfully, and on your next turn, it aides you (as described) in movement before vanishing to the discard pile. How does that sound?

The following new version of the "Trained Horse" incorporates a concept from Jon New. It is now a better balance between the risk of the 2E Horse and the lack of verisimilitude in the 4E horse. Jon's addition now makes this a much better card with advantage for a reasonable sacrifice. Make sure you do a forced refresh of the web page if you think your looking at the old version.

Hallo

I think that is a very good card. Thanks for posting it!

Hey there! Glad to see you're still around.

JCHendee said:

Hi JC,

I like the idea to change the type card.

Here are some options what is possible etc

event type card: The ability as it is stated on the card is too heavy to complete the conditions of the card as a event card

Stranger type card: Not bad. If you succeed in taming the Fay hound, he helps you on your next turn by rolling 2 dice etc( 8 options to land) after that he is discarded to the discard pile) ( not better as teleport but still good for one use)

Other choices what we may have is:

Stranger: based on a alligment type( helps good character? etc

Or a range methode( move not further than 4 etc

--------

Please tell me what you think about these idea's

Maybe we must skip the whole idea of the text and make a other text from it or maybe not..

What is your wish for this card..

JCHendee said:

The card is better than before

JC,

If you can remember the old days with the horse from 2th edition, is that horse overpowered because of it's tactics( upto 2) or not?

---------

A lot makes sense with this card

If you ride the extra spaces, followers cannot catch up with you and are also too tired in a opponent's turn to help you.

I think this are fair penalties, but i think that people will use the horse a lot.

----

I look forward to experience players who have use the 2th edition horse to tell something about it..

The 2E Horse allowed adding upto 3 added to one dice. This meant, with a modifier of +0 through +3 that it could hit upto 4 spaces in each direction. So I toned it down to upto +2, meaning only 3 spaces in either direction.

The adjustment for followers not keeping up - versus being left behind in the 2E Horse version - was entirely Jon New's innovation from discussions we were having concerning some other topics.

It's the best compromise I could come up with to lean towards the Control and Choice of 2E versus the pure distance randomness of 4ER. And hopefully it finds favor with players predominantly familiar with only the Talisman 4ER. Old 2E players would probably prefer the pure 2E version.

And for the time being, I'm probably going to shelve the Fay Stallion. It may return some other time / way as a Stranger for a one use encounter in some other expansion series.

Next up in the my 4ERR sequence by order will be:

1. Mule
2. Horse+Cart
3. Warhorse

And possibly with a couple real world variations on the Warhorse. The Horse+Cart may include some more innovations suggested by Jon New After I'm done with the "equines" so to speak, I will to other cards showing either distinct differences over Talisman editions or ones where there's a way to accomplish what they already do in a more compatible way with the rest of the game.

Back soon.