TL;DR: With the release of Stay on Target and the V-wings, and in the context of my own game, I would like help in designing an old Venator-class Star Destroyer from the Clone Wars, like LibrariaNPC did with Freighters.

I didn't know whether to post this on the AoR or EotE boards, but since my game draws quite a bit more from the scum and villainy side of things, here we go:

Trouble Brewing / Debts to Pay Adventures mild spoilers inside, not necessary for request.

Long explanation of the "why":

As you can see, I'm having a bit of trouble keeping my players hungry, but I'm quite OK with finding them stuff to spend their ... thousands upon thousands ... of credits on. For reference, they obtained more than 150000 creds in different rewards, even after I started taxing the hell out of them with Spaceport "parking tickets" and other rather obvious cash sinks. The thing is they're doing quite well on all adventures, and I don't want to be a GM jerk to screw them up when they are doing to good. But since I wanted them to feel well about their hard earned credits, but justifiably wanted the said creds to feel "hard earned", I'm trying to find ways to sink their cash in more constructive and fun ways.

Since I don't want them to endlessly pour money into the whole crime syndicate thing, especially since it will eventually sound like a very abstract investment, I'm trying a new strategy in terms of big rewards/cash sink.

That's where the idea of a Sabacc game where the players end up with an old Venator-class Star Destroyer (full of late Clone Wars Alpha 3-Nimbus "V-Wings") came to mind. On paper, this would obviously be too good, but once inspected, the ship would be exactly the kind of retro-futuristic worn out space hulk that's such a good adventure seed all by itself, because of all the stuff that can go wrong (covered in all kinds of space cobwebs!). And with such a huge ship, anything that goes wrong is of a whole different scale!

My request is in three parts:

1) Similarly to LibrariaNPC's excellent threads with tons of great freighters and ships, help in making the stats for an off-the-shelf Venator-class Star Destroyer : http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator-class_Star_Destroyer

2) A reasonnably broken and semi-functional refurbished Venator , parked in Hutt space, passed down from owner to owner since the Imperial Army got rid of them. Functionnal enough to be desirable, but not a combat monster that would totally spoil everyone's fun. I'm thinking this ship would make a good "base of operation" for the crime syndicate, long term, especially as they expand and recruit more crew members and fellow thugs. The hangar bays would still be functional and still containing the V-wings. The idea is that the maintenance of the ship would provide a good money sink that would balance it with the party's budget midterm.

3) Your opinion on this idea , and help in managing the money influx of players. I've gone way beyond what the "Keeping your Players Hungry" sidebar suggested.

Maybe a rival crime lord wants to assert his dominance, or tries to make the PCs join him, and invites the PCs to a dinner. Perhaps he has some black market items that he tries to sell to the PCs, or he tries to make them sign up for "protection."

If that SD isn't secretly named the "White Bantha" by its last owner, it would be a missed opportunity.

I know LibrariaNPC has been busy and I have written up some stats on the Venator-Class for my own game. if you'd like to look them over and see what you think, message me and I can send them to you.

otherwise sounds like a good structure to keep things rolling and I like the idea of using a Venator-Class as a base of operations.

Hit me up when you can.

Nice avatar

A busted old Venetor is the exact kind of White Elephant , or White Bantha as Kaosoe called it, that will deal with any monetary issues. Just ask Booster , the only private individual to ever operate a ISD. With the path you and your players are on, it's probably the best choice to keep a financial motivation. Anything else is probably going to come across simply to Fiat-GM. Just make sure they understand the implications when the step on board. Personnel, Fuel and Maintenance are going to be their three largest expenses. 7,400 crew each making 7 credits and hour is 414,000 credit per day expense. At that rate they'll be broke in... 6 hours.

If they've established a large criminal ring that's bringing in a lot of income, it'll still work. Otherwise you might consider going slightly smaller, like a Nebulan B.

Yeah there's a good reason my group always keep our privateer/pirate bands, crime rings and merc forces to sil 7 ships or below, and the sil 7s are very rare. The upkeep cost on the bigger ships is nightmarish unless your organization is on the Hutt and Black Sun level.

I've been interested in statting out a Venator for different reasons. I find it most comparable to a Victory-class Star Destroyer with fewer weapons and a landing bay capable of handling a lot more fighters. I'd use the same base stats, even though the Venator is bigger, it falls into the same silhouette range, and then modify according to the differences described on Wookieepedia.

The Deliverance

Mothballed and Stripped Obsolete Warship

Tier 1

Sil 8

Speed 0

Handling -

Defenses

-/-/-/-

Armor 7

HT 75

SS: 30

Hyperdrive -

Nav: none

Sensor Range -

Ships compliment: None

Starfighter complement: none (main hanger not pressurized)

Vehicle Compliment: Port hanger still functional as service dock. May accept 12 Sil worth of craft not exceeding Sil 4 on any one craft.

Enc: 300

Passengers: 20 (salvage techs)

Consumables: 1 week

Customization hardpoints:0

Weapons none.

Tier 2

Sil 8

Speed 1

Handling -4

Defenses

-/-/-/1

Armor 8

HT 85

SS: 40

Hyperdrive x15

Nav: Yes (Obsolete, +2 Setback on astrogation)

Sensor Range: Close

Ships compliment: 28 + gunners

Starfighter complement: 20 V-vings (room for, only 8 are actually found aboard, and not in pristine condition)

Vehicle Compliment: Port hanger still functional. May accept 24 Sil worth of craft not exceeding Sil 4 on any one craft.

Enc: 800

Passengers: 300

Consumables: 2 months

Customization hardpoints:0

Weapons:

4 heavy dbl turbolasers (3 Left/Front, 1 Right/Front)

Range Long, Damage 11, Crit 3, Breach 4, Slow 2, Linked 1

8 dbl heavy blaster cannons turbolasers (2/Front, 3 Right, 1 Left, 2 Back)

Range Close, Damage 5, Crit 4, Linked 1

Tractor Beam projector (front)

Range short, Tractor 4

Tier 3

Sil 8

Speed 2

Handling -3

Defenses

1/-/-/1

Armor 9

HT 105

SS: 52

Hyperdrive x3, backup x15

Nav: Yes

Sensor Range: Medium

Ships compliment: 517 + gunners

Starfighter complement: 30 V-vings (room for, only 8 are actually found aboard, and not in pristine condition)

Vehicle Compliment: May accept 48 Sil worth of craft not exceeding Sil 4 on any one craft.

Enc: 1200

Passengers: 500

Consumables: 4 months

Customization hardpoints:0

Weapons:

6 heavy dbl turbolasers (3 Left/Front, 3 Right/Front)

Range Long, Damage 11, Crit 3, Breach 4, Slow 2, Linked 1

18 dbl heavy blaster cannons turbolasers (6 Front, 3 Right, 4 Left, 5 Back)

Range Close, Damage 5, Crit 4, Linked 1

Tractor Beam projectors (2 front)

Range short, Tractor 4

Torpedo Tube 1 Front

Blast 6, Breach 6, guided 2, limited ammo 4, slow 1

More to come if you like it...

Edit: Ghostofman, wow! I was writting this post when your's showed up!

From total guesswork, and I certainly ain't an expert on starships, here's a starting point for the format of an off-the-shelf Venator (and SynysterDreamer, you could post your write-up here?):

Era: Rise of the Empire

Hull type/class: Star Destroyer/Venator

Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards

Hyperdrive: Class 1 Backup Class: 15

Navicomputer: Yes, of course!

Sensor Range: Long

Ship's Complement: 7400 crew

Starfighter Complement: 192 V-wing, 192 Eta-2 Actis -class interceptors , and at least 36 ARC-170 starfighters, 40 LAAT/i gunships and 24 military walkers, various shuttles, and IM-455 modular garrison

Encumbrance Capacity: 8400

Passenger Capacity: 2000 troops

Consumables: Two years

Cost/Rarity: 59,000,000 credits(new) 50,000,000 credits(black market)/6

Customization Hard Points: 4

Silhouette: 8

Speed: 2

Handling: -3

Defense: 2/2/2/2

Armor: 9

Hull Threshold: 135

System Threshold: 55

Weapons:

Four port and Four starboard heavy turbolaser batteries (Fire Arc Port and Forward or Starboard and Forward; Damage 11; Critical 3; Range [Long]; Breach 4, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 2).

Two medium dual turbolaser cannons (???)

Fifty-two Point-defense laser cannons (???)

Four heavy tractor beam emitters (Fire Arc Forward, Port, and Starboard; Damage -; Critical -; Range [short]; Tractor 6).

Heavy proton torpedo tubes (???) (Fire Arc ???; Damage 8; Critical 2; Range [short]; Blast 6, Breach 6, Guided 2, Limited Ammo 16, Slow-Firing 1).

Massive 1, of course.

OK, I'm very exited by what Ghostofman just posted. I think you got a Triumph on your check! Could you explain the tiers progression a little bit more?

Ship's Complement: 7400 crew

That’s a normal complement. If this is an old nearly mothballed model, I’d guess that the crew is a heck of a lot smaller. Simply don’t do some functions, use droids a lot more, and slave a lot more systems to the few that are manned, and then run skeleton crew on that. It wouldn’t be able to get close to full-up fighting trim, but I think you could probably survive with something around 700-1000 crew, and that would still include enough people for some star fighters, turbo lasers, etc….

Ship's Complement: 7400 crew

That’s a normal complement. If this is an old nearly mothballed model, I’d guess that the crew is a heck of a lot smaller. Simply don’t do some functions, use droids a lot more, and slave a lot more systems to the few that are manned, and then run skeleton crew on that. It wouldn’t be able to get close to full-up fighting trim, but I think you could probably survive with something around 700-1000 crew, and that would still include enough people for some star fighters, turbo lasers, etc….

The figures in my post are only for the off-the-shelf version, I'd definitely use lower figures for any mothballed model. The point of having the mint-condition model is for comparison purpose.

OK, I'm very exited by what Ghostofman just posted. I think you got a Triumph on your check! Could you explain the tiers progression a little bit more?

Sure!

You said you wanted a project for the players. Something they could invest credits into. Nothing like a big honking battlecruiser to suck up money.

The players start in the card game (or whatever) you mentioned. Bets get going higher and higher. Finally the other guy drops the deed to a starship on the table.

My little mental backstoy goes kinda like this:

And that's where we see the tiers.

Tier I is the condition of the ship when the players get it. It's less of a what and more of a where. A poor man's space station, and not much else. As the players complete adventures, invest capital, and pass time, the ship get's more and more serviceable. So each tier represents improvements and repairs. After a while, they get to II, now she's still a hulk, but at least she's mobile. So she can be relocated and worked on some more. Maybe they can keep refitting, maybe they decide to turn her into a shadowport... what ever. If they keep up the refit, then next up they get Tier III. She's now a semi-functional combat ship. No threat to a Star Destroyer, but a nasty surprise for a rebel base, or some pirates, or a corporation that hasn't been paying it's taxes. And so on...

Plus, as a former salvage yard queen, there's all kinds of fun to be had. Who knows what "junk" has been stashed in her hanger bays or cargo holds over time. Maybe a spice ring set up a lab in the forward torpedo room. Maybe a failed stealthship prototype is sitting in the main hanger, long forgotten, but hung onto for safe keeping. Maybe a Hutt has quietly refitted the flight bridge to be a safehouse for himself and he suddenly shows up to take residence for a few decades while some Hutt scale heat blows over...

All kinds of fun to be had....

Droids cost money, and that's not even including the droids that the ship is already assumed to have. Plus droids need maintenance as well. The Navy's rule of thumb is that a ship can be operated if necessary at 2/3s crew, but not for long (you're overworking everyone.)

You might be able to operate the ship with a few hundred, but you'd be sacrificing maintenance, repair, monitoring and crew support. I'd work for a day or a week, but not for very long before the thing basicly dis-repaired itself to death.

Compare it to a modern aircraft carrier's crew of 5000, where less than a hundred are used for weapon systems, and less than 1,500 for the flight operations. With that I doubt you could bring the crew down less than half without serious continual degradation of systems over time and completely shutting down offensive systems.

Quicksilver — you’re absolutely right. At least, from the perspective of a government Navy.

However, a private organization, maybe even a privateer/pirate organization, might see things differently. I don’t know of anyone who has any real-world experience with those, so I don’t know how they could cut down the crew requirements relative to an actual government Navy operation.

But it would be interesting to see some theories and hear some discussion on that subject.

From a grumpy old man perspective:

WEG listed crew, gunners, and skeleton crews. While it made a certain amount of sense, it also limited adventure options. Hard to run a "steal the cruiser" adventure when you need 800 people to make it move.

By comprison, look at Trek tng. The enterprise needed a crew of thousands, but could be crewed by only one person in a pinch. Probably not for more then a day or so before one too many things would blow, and solo combat would be insane. But it allowed for adventures where it was needed.

From a grumpy old man perspective:

WEG listed crew, gunners, and skeleton crews. While it made a certain amount of sense, it also limited adventure options. Hard to run a "steal the cruiser" adventure when you need 800 people to make it move.

By comprison, look at Trek tng. The enterprise needed a crew of thousands, but could be crewed by only one person in a pinch. Probably not for more then a day or so before one too many things would blow, and solo combat would be insane. But it allowed for adventures where it was needed.

I think canon even confirms being able to (shortly) pilot a capital ship without more than an astromech and a good pilot, i.e. in RotS's first major sequence, Anakin lands the badly damaged flagship with R2's help. The droid "crew" of the ship certainly didn't agree to this takeover, and probably didn't really cooperate. Sure, it's only a crash landing, but it's half a ship being piloted (almost) safely to the ground with a hostile droid crew mostly still on board.

I didn't start this thread, but I really, really want the additional tries you were talking about statting out. My AoR campaign would deeply benefit from such an easy adventure seed.

To think, I didn't even chime in until now, and my name's been brought up often o_O

Gravity's still working, right? o_O

Anyway:

From a grumpy old man perspective:

WEG listed crew, gunners, and skeleton crews. While it made a certain amount of sense, it also limited adventure options. Hard to run a "steal the cruiser" adventure when you need 800 people to make it move.

By comprison, look at Trek tng. The enterprise needed a crew of thousands, but could be crewed by only one person in a pinch. Probably not for more then a day or so before one too many things would blow, and solo combat would be insane. But it allowed for adventures where it was needed.

We should also note that in Legends (I had to stop myself from saying "Canon"), we see a number of capital ships run by a skeleton crew of about a dozen. In fact, it was about 20 people, if memory serves correctly, that stole a Super Star Destroyer to get it out of there.

So it's pilotable with very few, but it's not going to run well, be agile, or anything else besides relatively straight lines. You could have a party living on it, but there will be nothing done otherwise without the full crew.

As for the stats, I really think ghostofman gave you a wonderful thing to start with by using tiers. Seriously. I say it often, but he's brilliant at what he does. That tier approach works a LOT easier than giving you a stock ship and working from there, and is well worth approaching.

But, since it's come up, here's what I've been scribbling in my old notebook (and finalized at your request in between madness at work):

Venator-class Star Destroyer

Era: Rise of the Empire

Hull type: Star Destroyer

Ship Class: Venator -class Frigate

Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards and Allanteen Six Shipywards

Hyperdrive: Class 1 (Backup Class 15)

Navcomp: Equipped

Sensor Range: Long

Ship's Complement: 7,400 officers, pilots, and enlisted crew

Starfighter Complement*: 192 V-Wing or Torrent Fighters; 192 ETA-2 Actic Interceptors; 36 ARC-170 Fighters

Vehicle Complement: 40 LAAT/I gunships, various military walkers and shuttles.

Encumbrance Capacity: 9,000

Passenger Capacity: 2000 troops with associated equipment

Consumables: 1 month

Cost/Rarity: Not Available For Sale (estimated at 59 million credits/7 ®)

Customization Hard Points: 2

Silhouette: 8

Speed: 3

Handling: -2

Defense: 2/1/1/2

Armor: 8

Hull Threshold: 105

System Threshold: 45

Weapons:

4 Starboard and Port Dorsal Mounted Heavy Turbolaser Turrets ( Fire Arc Dorsal Port/Starboard Turret; Damage 11; Critical 3; Range [Medium]; Breach 4; Slow-Firing 1)

4 Forward Firing Heavy Proton Torpedo Tubes ( Fire Arc Forward; Damage 9; Critical 2; Range [short]; Breach 6, Blast 6, Guided 2, Limited Ammo 16, Slow-Firing 1)

1 Port and Starboard “Side” Mounted Medium Turbolaser Turrets ( Fire Arc Port/Starboard Turret; Damage 10; Critical 3; Range [Long]; Breach 3; Slow-Firing 1)

1 Port, Starboard and Forward Dorsal Mounted Tractor Beam Projectors (Fire Arc Dorsal Forward, Port, or Starboard; Range [Close]; Tractor 4)

1 Port, Starboard and Forward Ventral Mounted Tractor Beam Projectors (Fire Arc Dorsal Forward, Port, or Starboard; Range [Close]; Tractor 4)

10 Port, 10 Starboard Ventral-Mounted Point Defense Cannons ( Fire Arc Ventral Port/Starboard Turret; Damage 5; Critical 3; Range [Close])

10 Port, 10 Starboard Dorsal-Mounted Point Defense Cannons (Fire Arc Dorsal Port/Starboard Turret; Damage 5; Critical 3; Range [Close])

Massive 2

Special : The Venator was set with two specialized, and optional, “tracking modes” with regards to its weaponry. While in “long tracking mode,” gain a boost die when hitting targets at Long range or beyond, but add a setback die to targets any target at Short or Close range. When in “fast tracking mode,” grant a boost die to striking at ships at Close and Short range, but add a setback to targets at Medium or beyond.

*: The Venator class was built with a specific starfighter complement in mind. It is possible to store a number of other ships inside, but that may take some modification and fewer ships in the end, as many of these ships were smaller than most of the non-TIE vessels used during the Rebellion. (NOTE: This is entirely statter speculation!)

Notes : Some elements of the battleships are toned down in this game. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing (makes running these ship battles as a GM SO much easier than when 20+ rolls had to be made per turn), but it does add a new challenge for statting things.

As per usual, Encumbrance was always a challenge. Silhouette 7 ships seem to be pretty close to their respective tonnage, while Silhouette 8 are just under ½, thus the estimate here.

As for Silhouette: the ship is longer than a Victory Class and was built as a carrier with substantial firepower, so making it an 8 seemed to make sense, especially with how many ships it is carrying.

Really, I just tried to make this a cross between the ISD, Victory-class and the newly statted Secutor -class, but on a lower end as it is older and more versatile than the others.

Notes : Some elements of the battleships are toned down in this game. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing (makes running these ship battles as a GM SO much easier than when 20+ rolls had to be made per turn), but it does add a new challenge for statting things.

Had a similar opinion. That's why my take was placing 6 double blaster cannon in each defensive arc. Add up each barrel and you get roughly the "official" number of point defense guns.

Decent take on it.

I'm wondering what the eventual official take is going to look like as the carried craft number is so obscene...

What's really nuts is that they list it as carrying 192 Eta-2s even though the Eta-2 was primarily, if not exclusively, used by Jedi during the Clone Wars and I seriously doubt that each Venator had almost 200 Jedi stationed on it.

I always suspected that it was supposed to be 12 eta 2s not 192 and some tired writer just got mixed up on which fighter type he or she was including the numbers for.

I don't think that the Venator would be Restricted. It seems like only ships in active use by the Imperial military get the Restricted label. In universe, you'd think the Empire might have a problem with people using X-wings and Mon Cal cruisers, but that's not enough to make them Restricted.

I dunno. The Empire goes to great lengths to try and keep serious war materiel out of the hands of ordinary folk. I mean, look at what happened to Incom Corporation. The Empire didn't just "restrict" X-Wings, they tried to eliminate the source completely. And something like a Venator-Class Star Destroyer? Jeez, they'd probably rather scrap it than have to face off against it again later. That's the whole reason why the Corporate Sector got a double fistful of Victory 1s. The Empire sold what it could (to trustworthy official buyers) and junked or mothballed the rest. A Venator couldn't go one-on-one against an ImpStar Deuce, but it could smoke a pair of Victories and have room for dessert.

I'm just stating the pattern that the games use for assigning Restricted to starships. From every example I've seen, only starships in current use by the Imperial Navy get listed as Restricted.

I'm just stating the pattern that the games use for assigning Restricted to starships. From every example I've seen, only starships in current use by the Imperial Navy get listed as Restricted.

Personally, I made it restricted as a general rule of thumb, as some groups are still running at different eras. Play during the Clone Wars and they may be more common and Restricted, but play around the Battle of Hoth and they may be rarer with questionable restrictedness.

As for the restricted note, I think the Empire would restrict possession of a fully functional warship, which this was. Now, if you gut all of the weaponry, it might, MIGHT not be restricted. If there were the case, I don't think it'd be worth the full 59 million, but who knows!

What's really nuts is that they list it as carrying 192 Eta-2s even though the Eta-2 was primarily, if not exclusively, used by Jedi during the Clone Wars and I seriously doubt that each Venator had almost 200 Jedi stationed on it.

I always suspected that it was supposed to be 12 eta 2s not 192 and some tired writer just got mixed up on which fighter type he or she was including the numbers for.

Yeah, I have a feeling it shouldn't be carrying 384+ ships, but I could be wrong as the ship really is set to be a carrier/troop transport/warship hybrid that lead to the successful Star Destroyer line.

There is the note that the ship also carries the V-19 Torrents instead of the ETA-2s. I am also curious how many Y-Wings it can carry, as they came about during the Clone Wars, but the original information we have was from the Episode II Cross-Section.

I was debating between doing double cannons for the barrels or just have them as I did. I had a feeling that the many weaker cannons (I was even tempted to use Blaster Cannons instead) with minions made more sense with what we've seen in the series (which sadly isn't as much as I'd like for this).

I'm also curious what the eventual official take will be, but it never hurts to have many options around for homebrew, ne?

Thanks for the complement, though!