Which direction did you decide to go in the end with the secutor thing anyways?

forge world / admech obviously

the role was a bit harder to choose, but strangely enough sage seems to give the most appropriate aptitudes since you get tech and int double to choose different aptitudes (WS/BS and finesse if the GM allows it instead of tech or toughness), also works wonders with infused knowledge so I don't have to spend any XP on knowledges any more.

Getting just one aptitude in the combat related talents seems to be enough to allow for the few that you really need while getting two aptitudes is almost impossible.

Should we get free choice of aptitudes it would be WS/BS, Int, Will, Ag/T, Fin, Tech, Def most likely.

Tbh it's just better to drop it, since it'spretty obviously nobody is convincing anybody they're wrong.

There are people willing to concede a point, and then there's people who run from the discussion when they have all their arguments disproven...

I've read all the discussion and I'm fairly on your side, Desolator, but stopping to argue when you've got nothing more to say, isn't running from the discussion. I think Lordblades and you have said what you have to say, and continuing would be letting the chance to this discussion becoming an acerb exchange.

In my opinion, it would be forgeworld, admech, warrior for a Secutor, but I think the system is lax enough to let you do what you want to respect your concept.

I've read all the discussion and I'm fairly on your side, Desolator, but stopping to argue when you've got nothing more to say, isn't running from the discussion. I think Lordblades and you have said what you have to say, and continuing would be letting the chance to this discussion becoming an acerb exchange.

Pretty much this. Deathbygrotz's last few posts convinced me that his points are based on a view of many basic aspects of the game that is very different from my own.

Disproving his points would mean attacking his views.

Some are relatively easy to attack because they are houserules afaik or biased (IMO of course).

Some are impossible/pointless to attack because they're personal interpretations of a more or less vague fluff.

Others however, like the relative worth of armor vs. dodge or melee vs. ranged combat are probably deserving a thread of their own each, with no guaranteed conclusion.

Cymbel, where in the Lathes do techpriests gain a psyrating? anyone can take it from radicals handbook, but i've not seen it in Lathes. The gear (you mean the integrated stuff right?) is powerful, but very expensive and not readily available on any world (lathes only...), so unless you disregard that as a GM the powerlevel of a cogboy isn't that impressive, if he / she undertakes the journey and survives (hint), it's a nice reward. The same, btw, goes for the machinator array, you can't just "find" them when you take the talent.

IIRC, in the Radical's book, that pretty much all of those are "Techies and Sororitas need not apply"

The psy rating was "psybernetics" or something, I think it was hard to get, but still.

As for the weaponry, just look at the guardsman career path that means they get all that free (and the cost was reasonable too), as for other availability, other careers can get some of those goodies.

For DH1, you could just get the "implant" via the talent, BC onwards changed that IIRC,

I've read all the discussion and I'm fairly on your side, Desolator, but stopping to argue when you've got nothing more to say, isn't running from the discussion. I think Lordblades and you have said what you have to say, and continuing would be letting the chance to this discussion becoming an acerb exchange.

Pretty much this. Deathbygrotz's last few posts convinced me that his points are based on a view of many basic aspects of the game that is very different from my own.

Disproving his points would mean attacking his views.

Some are relatively easy to attack because they are houserules afaik or biased (IMO of course).

Some are impossible/pointless to attack because they're personal interpretations of a more or less vague fluff.

Others however, like the relative worth of armor vs. dodge or melee vs. ranged combat are probably deserving a thread of their own each, with no guaranteed conclusion.

Actually, it's been a while since I've run DH1 by the book, so if I'm not doing something entirely as per RAW, I'd like to know. I do think we handle combat very differently, though, yes. Mobility and positioning play a huge role in my encounters, if you want to get through them in one piece and I've actually upgraded tech priests because I thought them a bit too weak(Mechadendrites are +1 Attack, no reaction sacrifice, f.ex.).

I'm also not entirely sure which XP level we're talking about. Tech priests are strong from about rank 4 plus, before that, they're not really all too heavy duty. Once Ascension levels are reached, though, they're quite easily outclassed by assassins(literally anyone is), because Vindicare is just...well, let's not talk about Vindicare

Let me give you an example situation:

Group decides to stom a casino with a chaos cult in it head on, with some PDF and a riot chimera. Chimera goes in first, they go in shooting. Initial attack goes well, but alarms start blaring. More guards arrive. Group fans out and tries to flank them; tech priest and psyker stay with the chimera. Cult magos (we use ToC for mutations, for NPCs as well) teleports into the chimera. Chimera stops firing for a few rounds while the group do a good job of shooting up the reinforcements. Cult magos rolls well, PDF inside chimera bite it. He mans the multilaser. Group has nothing that can scratch is per se. The ones in the field dodge and run their way from cover to cover. They ignore the cultist reinforcements' anti-armour weaponry. Tech priest and psyker hatch a plan. Tech priest opens up one of the chimera's air vents. Psyker manifests flame inside, torching the interior completely.

That'd be what I'd call a typical encounter, where the party decided to romperstomp their way in. They usually don't do this, and prefer to ambush, which removes most of the combat per se in favour of outright murder, but in the rare cases they don't, I try to make things interesting and deadly, for everyone involved.

What I meant by you not playing RAW is the part where you'd allow an arbitrator or cleric to requisition gear based on their membership. From a rules standpoint only the SoB has mechanics for that and sacrifices a lot to get it, so by RAW cleric and arbitrator need to buy stuff just like everyone else. Even from a fluff standpoint, 40k has no Internet. Even if you walked into an arbites precinct on another planet, unless you have Peer and/or good reputation, nobody knows you. Usually they would treat you well, but won't give you weapons because they don't have any proof who you are. Papers (if you have them) can be stolen/fake and nobidy's going to use an astropathic message just to ask if Bill Unimportant is an Arbites 10 systems to the East.

Secondly, yes, we play very differently.

From my experience, melee is a sad joke. Unless you have ways to move across the battlefield with impunity (which very few DH classes do) you're getting cut down by people with guns in no time.

Secondly, I find armor way better than dodge. Dodge works for 1-2 guys pre-ascension, armor works for everyone. Additionally, dies DH overwatch work like RT and later systems overwatch? If so Dodge is even worse (even Vindicare dodge) since smart opponents will just overwatch you to death (for undodgeable shots).

I was also aiming for any XP level below Ascension. I ratetech-priest as 3rd best combat class ar rank 1 (behind SoB and Crimson Guard) and it only gains ground from there. Guardsmen might have a sweet spot if you get some goid heavy weapons before rank 4 (without an expected Wealth by Rank breakdown.it's hard to debate)

Imperial "papers" aren't papers per se. The rosette, for example, contains the genetic information of the inquisitor, a hologram of him and various other means of authenticication (at least, in the Eisenhorn books). I see no reason why an arbite wouldn't have similar means of authentification. Given the notorious uncorruptability of the institution, I'd consider such security protocols as to have a centralised database of all inducted arbites, as well as an individual passport/badge with similar information to be verified automatically, standard for the organisation. This is speculative on my part, and I agree it's not RAW, but it's what I gather from books like Eisenhorn and games like Space Marine on imperial security protocols. Badges of office are often genetically encoded for the wearer, and there is some sort of central database that allows him access to imperial institutions.

The usefulness of armour vs. dodge is indeed situational, as well. My group prefers to dodge and weave their way into cover (which provides considerably more AP than anything they could wear), and retain their mobility. Note, the tank approach isn't "wrong", it's just not one I'd pick in Dark Heresy myself using core rules, because of the aforementioned mob tactics.

Overwatch is also the reason I mentioned stealth. You can get ridiculous boni on it, and it's perfectly viable to use in engagements. It's also the best way to get into melee distance.

Melee itself is an interesting beast. With hard target, or stealth, and using cover, or in urban scenarios, where you round a corner and are in your opponent's face all of a sudden, it's quite possible to get into range fairly quickly. If you're not playing it intelligently in your advance, though, the ranged weaponry will pick you apart.

In closing, combat is, generally, situational and you can't always be on the initiative and dictate its terms to your favour. My view on a low Ag, heavy armour character is that they will have more trouble adapting to new situations, so they need a bit of a boost to make their lack of mobility worthwhile, which is why our tech priest is a slow moving artillery platform in a fight, and the rest of us are fairly lightly armoured stealthers and runners. The combination of both assets is more effective than one on its own.

Mob tactics affect characters that rely on dodge even more, and tanky characters can also benefit from cover.

I agree with stealth and melee. The only melee character I've seen have any success in DH was a Templar Calix (ab)using See Me Not and Force Weapons.

Melee suffers from 2 main issues in general IMO:

Lack of damage: with Swift and Lightning attack being full actions more often than not you're getting off a single attack, while a ranged character usually gets his full attack routine off.

Getting stranded out in the open: you charge in and kill an enemy. Great, now your round is over and you most likely have no cover from the rest of his friends.

Yep, you definitely have to compensate for the positioning issue as a melee, which means planning your approach carefully, or being very good at improvising. It may do well to mention our guardsman didn't rely entirely on melee, but rather on his las (later bolt) gun with a melee attachment, allowing for utility without the need to swap weapons. He was fairly effective, especially with the tech priest's full auto covering fire from his tanky seat to cover approaches like that. If we'd had a couple secutors, though, and not a mixed party as we did, we've have been stuck in some situations.

This is why:

A higher Ag means a higher movement rate and we've often found that that little increase we get from having more AgB is just what we needed to survive. Our MO is "don't get hit", while the techpriest very often is the one who will take a few hits. This is why we kitted him out with the most ridiculous tankiness we could find, just so he won't die because he's a slowpoke who gets nowhere fast. With sprint, a high base movement rate and no encumberance, our other classes can close in fast, or secure decent firing positions. If we'd been stuck in one position, it would've been a very lengthy shooting war which we'd have eventually lost, because the opponent would have used our lack of mobility against us and flushed us out with grenades, a vehicle, their own dedicated melee combatants etc.

Getting stranded because you charged, is basically just as bad as getting penned in because you couldn't move fast enough, in our games. Winning a fight is all about remaining on or gaining the initiative, and in situations where you're on the defensive initially, you need to be mobile to do that.

The guardsman, incidentially, doesn't suffer from the lack of damage issue due to ridiculously cheap stealth, and the arbite primarily uses melee with shock weaponry, usually, to stun tough opponents, then semi-auto them point blank with his shotgun. The assassin has to go about things murderously tactical, though, and basically employ ambush tactics all the time. It's what his class does, though, and it's very, very efficient.

In other words, I'm not going to call tech priests/tank builds the most powerful, nor am I going to call them the "weakest". They have roles they can be VERY useful in, and in a surprise round, being able to soak will definitely save your life, which is why our mobile group members invest in solid armour as well. But limitiing yourself to only soak limits your role on the battlefield, and if your entire party is only soak, you'll eventually run into situations where you would have needed someone who can move fast and move hard to survive. A good mix of roles prevents this from happening, and thus, prevents wipes.

I can't really imagine a situation other than a fighting retreat where moving fast around the battlefield could achieve more than superior range and overwhelming firepower.

Also, doesn't machinator array also grant you +1 speed (as Hulking)? That would mean you move just like any other class without cheap Ag

Urban assault scenarios happen a lot in our group. Room to room and house to house requires a combination of speed and durability to do well, or you'll get boxed in in a crossfire. There's also higher ground situations you can't just solve with a rocket launcher, or situations where we want someone alive for questioning, meaning we need to catch and subdue them. If we can't do so discretely, it needs to be mid combat. I can think of plenty situations where you'd want to be faster than an effective AgB of 2 or 3. Your enemies are probably moving at 3 or 4, after all, if not more.

Other situations, where we're in a fortified location, or we managed to set up the ambush, that's where our techpriest and his heavy arms loadout shines. I'll note he doesn't use a hellgun, though, but rather a heavy stubber/bolter, rocket launcher or lately a meltagun and las cannon, depending on situation. Basically mob control and tank cracker weaponry.

Edit: As far as I know, machinator array explicitely reduces your movement rate.

Edit2: Of course, I can be wrong:

Increase your Strength and Toughness Characteristics
by +10 each and reduce your Agility and Fellowship both
by –5. You now also weigh around three times as much as
a normal person of your size and you may no longer swim.
You also suffer a –10 to Move Silently Tests. Thanks to
your additional augmetics any Ballistic Mechadendrite you
possess may mount a single Pistol weapon or one-handed
Melee weapon rather than the usual compact laser design
(you must have the appropriate Talent to use it).

I can't really imagine a situation other than a fighting retreat where moving fast around the battlefield could achieve more than superior range and overwhelming firepower.

Also, doesn't machinator array also grant you +1 speed (as Hulking)? That would mean you move just like any other class without cheap Ag

no, it actually costs you -10 agility because of the bulk, and you can't swim any more since you now weigh 500kg give or take.

The problem is getting the superior range and overwhelming firepower. typically, atleast by my interpretation, a group of acolytes will be outnumbered (and outgunned). Seeing how easy it is to get grenades or make molotovs overwhelming firepower shouldn't be hard to achieve for the mob.

Grotz, may I advice a autocannon for the good techpriest, I promise, you will not find a weapon that rips through pretty much anything with the ease of that monster XD (if someone is ridiculous enough to allow two of by replacing an arm or shoulder mounting one it will hold off anything short of a full blown chaos / ork invasion...

We told him, but he loves his las cannon too much not to take it into combat and has a bit of a bolter fetish

I was pretty sure Machinator Array would make you Hulking. Oh well.

A mid-rank (let's say 4-5) Secutor can probably get a hold of Carapace, a shield and a decent basic weapon with a recoil glove.

Toughness 60(30 base, 20 advancement, 10 secutor), +2 TB from cybernetics, +2 armor from Flesh is Weak, +6 armor from carapace. 8 TB, 8 armor (12 I think on torso and shield arm). He laughs at grenades, Molotovs and most non-heavy weapons. Unless there's a mob of stormtroopers or chaos marines coming his way, he's pretty safe.

Actually, he doesn't laugh at molotovs or anything else that sets him on fire. Only armour from the machine trait applies towards fire damage, so unless he can put it out, for which he needs Ag, he is in deep, deep trouble. 20 soak is certainyl impressive, btw, but nothing that cannot be countered with an accurate weapon or two. A simple hunting rifle is something most cultists will have in their arsenal, dito on a source of prometheum and something to make fire.

Hard (-20, -30 upon failed first test) agility test or 1d10 every round plus one fatigue is nasty. The killer here is one fatigue every round. Once you burn long enough, you're out of it, entirely.

Fair enough, forgot how bad fire was.

Still, he's quite a bit more resilient vs. Almost anything else than any non-hiding character.

EDIT: AFB right now, but weren't you set on fire inly if you took damage from the initial flamer attack? To which you apply your whole armor, TB and shield bonuses (and therefore can't take damage), since no armor rules are under 'being set on fire' not Flame quality

He has his strengths, agreed, but they tend to become his weaknesses in the wrong situations. Vice versa for characters who aren't that resilient or don't invest in soak at all. An assassin caught flat footed is dead, a tech priest will live. A tech priest on fire is boned, an assassin on fire can usually get out of trouble with his high Ag. In the end, it largely depends on what your DM tosses at you, and how, specifically, just how useful a strategy or build is. Universally more useful than any other in any situation is not something I think any class can do, with the possible exception of some psyker builds.

Please see my edit above.

Interesting. Seems so. Molotovs, or fire bombs, do have Pen 6, mind, and all you need is one point of damage. It'd need luck or several, then. Though why people would only toss one molotov is beyond me. They usually come in droves

Interesting. Seems so. Molotovs, or fire bombs, do have Pen 6, mind, and all you need is one point of damage. It'd need luck or several, then. Though why people would only toss one molotov is beyond me. They usually come in droves

Their range is pretty low. What was it, SBx3 m?, so 9-12 m for most humans.

That's where high Ag, cover use and stealth come into play. Thank the omnissiah for integrated auspexi, aye?

Interesting. Seems so. Molotovs, or fire bombs, do have Pen 6, mind, and all you need is one point of damage. It'd need luck or several, then. Though why people would only toss one molotov is beyond me. They usually come in droves

Their range is pretty low. What was it, SBx3 m?, so 9-12 m for most humans.

Remember that the Range value only determines what the practical ranges are. So a Range Value of 9 means that up to 18m is normal, and from 18 to 27 is Long. Considering that thrown weapons don't really miss, as much as scatter, and that they often have a Blast range, it's pretty sweet.

Smeg, you just solved a problem that's been plaguing my group for years now. Thank you.

Honestly, I can't tell you how many players I've gmed for that didn't know that either. It's one of the most common misconceptions of ranged weapons in the 40k ffg game lines I've come across. It is pretty **** sweet when you know the truth! =D