But aren't techpriests always armed or accompanied by servitors quite capable of defending them after the first few rank ups? I just can't believe a fully fledged techpriest would go somewhere unprotected...

I've never read anything to that effect; especially in any of the RPG materials (though I haven't read everything pertaining to 40K.)

But really, it ultimately comes down to the GM's call.

Tech Priests are generally equipped for the task they are performing and the service they would generally provide. I've never heard of them always going around armed and with servitors for defense.

Since there are ranks here it doesn't really matter about the rank system, which in DH1 made tech priests a general nightmare to deal with and almost always makes me consider banning them.

The most difficult player I ever had played exclusively tech priests, was a bit of a munchkin, and bought the Lathe Worlds book on release (latest and most unbalanced DH1 supplement with primarily tech priest options). I felt bad he spent real money on the book so I allowed it. His character made designing balanced combat encounters impossible since he had 10 damage reduction and an AP7 weapon.

DH1 had a weird design element where tech priests were a knowledge class, a combat class, a skill class (tech use, security, medicae...) and had tech talents that were basically magic. They could do anything better than the class that was supposed to do that thing. (not saying DH1 was otherwise balanced because lol nope)

The most difficult player I ever had played exclusively tech priests, was a bit of a munchkin, and bought the Lathe Worlds book on release (latest and most unbalanced DH1 supplement with primarily tech priest options). I felt bad he spent real money on the book so I allowed it. His character made designing balanced combat encounters impossible since he had 10 damage reduction and an AP7 weapon. DH1 had a weird design element where tech priests were a knowledge class, a combat class, a skill class (tech use, security, medicae...) and had tech talents that were basically magic. They could do anything better than the class that was supposed to do that thing. (not saying DH1 was otherwise balanced because lol nope)

You might be thinking about Crimson Guard, which was an alt rank for Guardsmen. Brutal at rank 1 (lust like BoM Sisters, another epic FFG idea) but beyond that it got buried in the crap Guardsmen advancements.

For me the big things were Flesh is Weak (makimg an already formidable combat character even more formidable) and Factor of the Lathes (party face was the last role Tech-priest couldn't do)

The most difficult player I ever had played exclusively tech priests, was a bit of a munchkin, and bought the Lathe Worlds book on release (latest and most unbalanced DH1 supplement with primarily tech priest options). I felt bad he spent real money on the book so I allowed it. His character made designing balanced combat encounters impossible since he had 10 damage reduction and an AP7 weapon.

DH1 had a weird design element where tech priests were a knowledge class, a combat class, a skill class (tech use, security, medicae...) and had tech talents that were basically magic. They could do anything better than the class that was supposed to do that thing. (not saying DH1 was otherwise balanced because lol nope)

damage reduction 10 is something that can be done with guardflak, flesh is weak (can't take that twice at rank one) / subdermal armour and 40-50 toughness right? to be honest that doesn't sound like anything other characters would have more difficulty getting than a DH1 techpriest. A psyker is just as capable of wearing armour and getting implants in DH1 as a techpriest was (or any other class for that matter) XD

Also, an AP 7 weapon isn't really any better than a pen 4 (if that) weapon against most opponents, which is again, not that difficult to get and besides AP is totally ignored by creatures with high and / or unnatural toughness. Transfer armour to (unnatural)toughness if you really have an issue with an AP 7 weapon and the problem is solved

Furthermore, most classes were quite capable of filling different roles and not "even" a techpriest was ever capable of filling more than one - two roles in a decent manner unless you were rank 8 with waaay too much XP (and more importantly; money) on your hands.

The problem was that for almost any role in DH1, the answer to 'what's the best class for this role?' was 'tech-priest'

Double post sry

The problem was that for almost any role in DH1, the answer to 'what's the best class for this role?' was 'tech-priest'

I would have thought the answer would be: "Psyker." Almost anything Tech Priests can do, Psykers can do better, with only about a 10% chance of blowing up.

A tech priest can do it consistently with no chance of blowing up.

Regardless it was one of the most powerful things in the first edition, it only got worse with time.

The problem was that for almost any role in DH1, the answer to 'what's the best class for this role?' was 'tech-priest'

This is something that's been thrown around quite a lot, but I fail to see how exactly, could someone give me a run down of what roles you distinguish between and how a techpriest does it better than all other classes?

Never had that problem and we used lathe world a lot, and in many games with many different players. Some things are stronger than others and more abusive than others, but the psyker was the real mess (and it was mainly because I wasn't good at the time to have them in my games. I never got good, I just adapted the black crusade psychic system to DH).

Techpriest never was that abusive role, in our game it was rather the cleric (and then again, not that abusive), the battle sister, if we forget her gear (which she couldn't always war), was kinda normal too...

In my opinion, the crimson guard (and the psyker before I rework it), was the strongest class.

Psyker isn't eben worth discussing in comparisin with other classes, it's too far gone.

As for tech-priest, off the top.of my head a few examples:

Combat: A tech-priest can get a cyber-mastiff at rank 1 via BoJ alt rank so it's you+pet in combat. Past rank 4 when you get Secutor ypu're stronger, tougher (+T from Machinator array and Flesh is Weak) and have an extra attack from Ballustic mechadendrite. On top of thay, you have access to way more utility talents than a Guardsman. Also, not 100% sure but doesn't Machinator Array also grant Auto-stabilized? Or was that RT?

Party face: Factor of the Lathes alt rank gives you all the party faceness you'll ever need, while still being tough as nails amd techy.

Psyker isn't eben worth discussing in comparisin with other classes, it's too far gone.

As for tech-priest, off the top.of my head a few examples:

Combat: A tech-priest can get a cyber-mastiff at rank 1 via BoJ alt rank so it's you+pet in combat. Past rank 4 when you get Secutor ypu're stronger, tougher (+T from Machinator array and Flesh is Weak) and have an extra attack from Ballustic mechadendrite. On top of thay, you have access to way more utility talents than a Guardsman. Also, not 100% sure but doesn't Machinator Array also grant Auto-stabilized? Or was that RT?

Party face: Factor of the Lathes alt rank gives you all the party faceness you'll ever need, while still being tough as nails amd techy.

Arbites can get a pet just as well as you can. Also, pets fall of really fast since you cannot upgrade them by RAW.

Yes, cogboys get tanky, but their damage is not that good compared to an assassin for example (Vindicare anyone? )

Machinator array also gives a hit to agility, so dodging is not going to happen (which means a high AP weapon shreds techpriests in 1-2 rounds, more so than others).

Party face: sure, you can make a party face techpriest who's still somewhat tanky. Is this better at being the party face than an other class dedicated to it? probably not if you're not on a forgeworld since techpriests are still outsiders (even if people worship them for being able to fix stuff).

Specializing in any of these rolls also seriously forgoes your knowledges and skill aswell unless you are willing to gimp your role, you just don't have the XP to buy everything you could possibly want.

While it's nice to see someone that is willing to defend the DH1 tech priest you have to realize you're the odd man out.

Plenty of us have been subject to the munchkining and theorycrafting that makes FFG tech priests absolutely devastating and nearly unstoppable save a ship canon's salvo. Especially with the absolutely laughably poor errata for DH1 it wasn't helped ever.

Tech priests can be anything, and generally better. Yes there's dedication, but that's dangerous in dark heresy as a whole. If you are a tech priest you can be generally good at nearly everything better than anyone else. On top of getting cybernetic enhancements that are silly, and on top of being able to get very low psy level if I remember correctly.

Psykers can at least explode violently. The only way to shut down a tech priest built the right way is to send a discordant at them or GM fiat.

While it's nice to see someone that is willing to defend the DH1 tech priest you have to realize you're the odd man out.

Plenty of us have been subject to the munchkining and theorycrafting that makes FFG tech priests absolutely devastating and nearly unstoppable save a ship canon's salvo. Especially with the absolutely laughably poor errata for DH1 it wasn't helped ever.

Tech priests can be anything, and generally better. Yes there's dedication, but that's dangerous in dark heresy as a whole. If you are a tech priest you can be generally good at nearly everything better than anyone else. On top of getting cybernetic enhancements that are silly, and on top of being able to get very low psy level if I remember correctly.

Psykers can at least explode violently. The only way to shut down a tech priest built the right way is to send a discordant at them or GM fiat.

I realize i'm the odd man out. It seems however that no one seems to realize that a "tanky optimized munchkin techpriest" has such glaring weaknesses in combat that are sooo easy to capitalize on as a GM that you're more than capable of gibbing a techpriest one - two rounds.

Say you take secutor, with everything that entails and you get dragonscale armour with the flesh is weak maxed etc etc. Let's say you have 25 damage reduction (15 armor and 100 toughness). A krak missile does 3d10+10. this is average availability, A cultist who's done any kind of preparation will be able to get his / her hands on this. The grenades also work pretty well, tough you need a couple of them. Since these kind of techpriests will only have around 15 agility (array and heliot give rather -15 (-20?) agility) you will hit with these weapons.

Alternatively, if you use enclosed spaces a melta-cutter or thermal lance (industrial equipment anyone?) also get the job done in one or two turns.

depending on the cultists they might just use one of the anti machine weapons described in Lathes (yes, it counters cogboys just as well as it buffs them), or even a autocannon if you are running a campaign that's so heavy into combat.

In melee (depending on specialization of said cogboy or -girl) any power weapon will do, hell give a chaos cultist a mutation with razorsharp natural weapons and watch the techpriest come apart into nuts and bolts There are even psychic powers that ignore power and toughness (incinerate, pyromancy for example).

Note that these weapons do the same damage against the rest of the party (maybe a few point more if they have lower toughness, but you get the point. Also, they won't be in the frontline) since AP doesn't go through toughness BUT your other party members will have a WAY better chance of dodging, and thus surviving, the attacks than the admech.

the other points you raise: everyone can get a psy level / untouchable, it's in the radicals handbook.

Everyone can become a jack of all trades, though a munchkin will never build that since it's generally weaker than a dedicated speciality, you have party members for your weakness. The cybernetics are only silly when you finally get them (they are expensive as hell and you need both a talent and money for them) and most of these are accessible for everyone (only mechadendrites, hovering and autosanguine are exclusive I believe? and those aren't THAT op).

I'm fairly sure that AP granted by the Machine Trait/ Natural armour etc functions the same as toughness bonus in that it cannot be cut through with Penetration? Please tell me that's the case and that I've not been running DH wrong for four years.

Edit: Never mind, I've been running DH wrong for four years.

I personally don't think that a GM should have to custom tailor every encounter to prevent one character from dominating it. The need to do that, IMHO, actually reinforces the notion that the character is in fact broken.

I personally don't think that a GM should have to custom tailor every encounter to prevent one character from dominating it. The need to do that, IMHO, actually reinforces the notion that the character is in fact broken.

Do you not add an untouchable every once in a while against the Psyker? Do you not add some criminal for the Arbites to try? Do you not add a NPC with high dodge against an assassin, or a nice melee dork for your melee fighter to test his / her skill against in an epic duel to the death?

The fact that you stick to your preconceived notion of what an encounter should be reeks of prefabricated adventures which are very boring. You don't need to tailor EVERY encounter to a character, but IMHO you do add interesting and challenging encounters for your players. Even as they might steamroll "standard template" cultists with 25 ballistic skill and a las pistol, which ALL characters will shrug off...

Even as the rest of your party might come to rely on their indestructo tank cogboy, it's good to remind everyone at the table he can still die in a single hit. If that's not possible for whatever reason, use a movement based encounter (the party flees from something) with the 15 orso agility a techpriest has I wish him luck...

Same goes for every other characters though: you add a challenge for the thing they build their character around. If that is "I'm THE tank" you add a anti tank weapon every once in a while. If that's "I'm judge, jury and executioner" as an arbites, add a nice moral choice to a case or something. if it's "I am a psyker" you throw in the demons / warpspawn and untouchables for interaction.

Point I'm making: A techpriest is not broken, has pretty simple counters (though apparently not obvious enough in the books) once you know the mechanics and you can easily adapt / design encounters taking this into account.

You should make encounters suited to other classes and their (and their players) interests in any way as a good GM IMHO, so I've only added some ideas to make an apparently "broken" class to show people that it's not that hard to deal with such classes.

I custom tailor quite a few encounters, because NPCs do recon, too, and if they're going to hit the party, they're not going after a big, fat unknown. I don't have much to add to what Desolator said, but I fully agree tech priests are only a problem if you aren't playing your NPCs to their full capacity. I have never had a problem making my players sweat blood, when I wanted to.

I'll also add here that I run house rules that make DH1 tech priests even more "broken", such as the ability to attack with every installed weapon in one round.

And I can still kill the cogboy in one round, if I want to. Dito on the psyker, or any acolyte. I can still easily challenge my party, even at ascension levels, even with BS 25 cultists with crap weaponry, by having them act intelligently.

None of the character concepts in DH1 are broken in relation to the NPCs. They may be broken in relation to other party members, though. Mostly, this is a problem with scum, because Scum are, frankly, drek.

I personally don't think that a GM should have to custom tailor every encounter to prevent one character from dominating it. The need to do that, IMHO, actually reinforces the notion that the character is in fact broken.

Do you not add an untouchable every once in a while against the Psyker? Do you not add some criminal for the Arbites to try? Do you not add a NPC with high dodge against an assassin, or a nice melee dork for your melee fighter to test his / her skill against in an epic duel to the death?

First of all, your 2nd and 4th examples have absolutely nothing to do with preventing specific characters from dominating encounters, which was what I was addressing.

But to answer your question: no, I don't. Not at the encounter level, anyway. If my players express or show interest in certain adversaries or situations, then I'll be more inclined to use those elements when I'm writing an adventure; but I don't add elements to encounters just to cater to a single character. For one, it can come across as contrived; especially if it happens frequently. But it's mainly because the majority of my players have families, careers, and/or weak immune systems; and I can never be certain that a given player will be in attendance during a particular session. The last time I tailored a session with a particular player in mind, she got pneumonia the day before. After that I started writing to the group rather than to specific players or characters, and it's worked out very well so far.

I custom tailor quite a few encounters, because NPCs do recon, too, and if they're going to hit the party, they're not going after a big, fat unknown.

That's a little different. If the enemy has the opportunity in game to gather information on the PC's, then it's not contrived for them to prepare a tailored response. And it further illustrates the importance of subtlety in some situations. The enemy can't prepare a response if they don't know you're coming.

Psyker isn't eben worth discussing in comparisin with other classes, it's too far gone.As for tech-priest, off the top.of my head a few examples:Combat: A tech-priest can get a cyber-mastiff at rank 1 via BoJ alt rank so it's you+pet in combat. Past rank 4 when you get Secutor ypu're stronger, tougher (+T from Machinator array and Flesh is Weak) and have an extra attack from Ballustic mechadendrite. On top of thay, you have access to way more utility talents than a Guardsman. Also, not 100% sure but doesn't Machinator Array also grant Auto-stabilized? Or was that RT?Party face: Factor of the Lathes alt rank gives you all the party faceness you'll ever need, while still being tough as nails amd techy.

Arbites can get a pet just as well as you can. Also, pets fall of really fast since you cannot upgrade them by RAW.Yes, cogboys get tanky, but their damage is not that good compared to an assassin for example (Vindicare anyone? )Machinator array also gives a hit to agility, so dodging is not going to happen (which means a high AP weapon shreds techpriests in 1-2 rounds, more so than others).Party face: sure, you can make a party face techpriest who's still somewhat tanky. Is this better at being the party face than an other class dedicated to it? probably not if you're not on a forgeworld since techpriests are still outsiders (even if people worship them for being able to fix stuff). Specializing in any of these rolls also seriously forgoes your knowledges and skill aswell unless you are willing to gimp your role, you just don't have the XP to buy everything you could possibly want.

Nobody said combat tech-priest is withot weakness. It's just a better combat class than dedicated combat classes (except Vindicare Assasin but that's Ascension only) while being vastly more useful out of combat.

Same goes for party face: it's as good as any other class but retains tech priest utility.

Nobody said combat tech-priest is withot weakness. It's just a better combat class than dedicated combat classes (except Vindicare Assasin but that's Ascension only) while being vastly more useful out of combat.

Same goes for party face: it's as good as any other class but retains tech priest utility.

How exactly is it "better"? Everyone in this thread that has an issue with the brokenness of a techpriest in DH says it is a stronger class because of it's inherent tankyness. I have just given ample examples of how that does not add up if you use the given knowledge / equipment to your NPC's.

Sure, if, and that's a big IF, your party is able to take the whole cult they are chasing by surprise, they will (probably, who's to say they don't carry heavy hitting weapons with them, they are heretics after all) not be able to dent the cogboy all that much. This still doesn't make the techpriest any stronger than the assassin who is able to snipe 5-10 dudes before they even know where the fire is coming from (called shot on the head with proper line up WILL kill multiple dudes per shot) in a surprise attack...

The biggest problem is the fact that there are few dedicated combat classes besides the guardsman (who will still kill the cogboy with rank two heavy weapon SP and an autocannon (1k throne gelt, really???) or a missile launcher at rank three ) assassin (a sniper will **** up the techpriest good) and the SoB who is rather more powerful in combat than a cogboy, barring a secutor with too much money on hands and even then it will only balance the scales.

Most other classes are not dedicated combat classes, and to be fair, neither is the cogboy unless you take secutor. Should it be surprising that the secutor is better at combat than an arbites or priest? Not really...

Does a secutor have worthwhile skills? Yes, it does, but only those he / she got from rank three or lower and a few forbidden lores that are overpriced compared to a true knowledge class. Will a Secutor still be good at tech? well, yes, because that is what they do, but not much else in the utility department, nor will their 500+kg bulk be able to go wherever they please until they drop secutor and chase after maglev transcendence...

Please point us to the rule that allows called shots to the head to kill multiple dudes at once. Ihave never seen it.

Also, just because you can negare simeone's tankyness doesn't mean it's nit tankier than everyone else, who would get similarly negated in similar circumstances.

critical -10 impact to the head: if you have a straight line from your original point of fire to a dude behind your original target within the range of your weapon you are allowed to make an attack against the second enemy (or third, should there be a third in line after you gob the second one) as the bullet penetrates the skull with enough force to keep killing. A good assassin with a sniper will have no trouble hitting an aimed called shot and killing said enemy in one shot as head armour is relatively weak, even more so when he is not detected and can take his time to aim and line up his shot(s).

Negating someone's tankyness: no, indeed that doesn't mean the techpriest is not tankier than everyone else. This is not the argument however. The "problem" people have is that the techpriest is so tanky and good in combat, combined with other useful abilities, that it is "broken. I have shown that it's rather easy to destroy said techpriest in such a way that I don't consider it "broken" or even overpowered.

Furthermore, while negating the "tankyness" of everyone, the rest of your party still has decent / good dodge capabilities. A techpriest with such tankyness doesn't because the very abilities that give him tankyness reduce his agility. This makes him inherently weak to high dmg / pen weapons with low rate of fire. So a melta weapon or missile for example is on average, assuming statistics and not one (un)lucky roll, more likely to hit (and with that probably outright kill) a techpriest than a guardsman or assassin etc. since they have good dodge modifiers and agility.

What makes the techpriest "tanky", namely cybernetics and heavy armour is something everyone else can get as well. A Techpriest does not inherently have more TB than anyone else.

For example, an Arbite can go to any arbite station, check in and requisition his equipment for a "special assignment". That means FREE carapace, assault shotgun and shock shield. Add a pistol grip to the shotgun, go two weapon fighter mixed and you have a stunning, semi-automatic fire using blaster that simply shreds things to bits.