Gryphynx, I have no idea what you're trying to achieve, and it's beginning to sound a bit like a wind-up to me. You say you're using the EoE Beta, a book which still had the Surveillance skill and a maximum of three Specialisations. Things have changed substantially since those days.

It's clear from what you said about 'needing' at least four Force dice to do anything, that you flat-out do not understand the Force rules, seeing as I gave you an example where we launched multiple ATATs into space using a mere two dice.

Every single veteran on the thread - Desslok, Daeglan, mouthymerc, Ghostofman, whafrog, progressions, HappyDaze, kaosoe - has advised you that allowing characters to spend XP on improving characteristics or Force dice is irrevocably, insanely broken, as is breaking the rules to improve Skills beyond the limit of 5.

You know this. It's like starting your D&D characters at level 20 with maximum stats in everything.

You are choosing to make widespread changes that will terminally affect the balance of the game without even playing the Core rules yet.

So if that's what you want, just go and do it. Make a bunch of characters that can take out Darth Vader in one hit. Anyone can make an overpowered game; it's making one that's balanced that's the difficult part.

You've said you don't want advice or help, so why are you posting on a forum where nobody is going to agree with you? I just don't get what you're after here.

@Maelora

I am not "looking" for anything. I said "Thank you", and finalized our char gen a couple of pages back. My only reason for continuing to post on this thread is because people like you keep, wrongly, saying that my system is broken. If you are going to keep being wrong, I will keep trying to enlighten you.

I realize force works as is, if you play as is, and drawing on the darkside has no consequence short of losing some destiny points. If darkside has negative consequences the way it should, which it does in my games, 2 dice is not enough. That, and I wanted a more force-heavy group for the storyline I have planned.

This doesn make it close to "level 20" D&D, that is just idiotic. It is much more akin to starting at 2nd level instead of first, or first, but with a mgic +1 item. You can keep going on about how overpowering it is, but you are simply wrong, and if you took the 30 seconds it would take to think up a 160 point characteristic character (or force at double the cost), you would hopefully see just how crazy wrong you are.

Btw, everyone agreeing with each other doesnt make them all right, it just makes them great at backpatting.

The first, and the one of the 2 that I most favor currently, is to separate Characteristics from XP entirely. I'm thinking of giving 8 Characteristic Points (ChP). For 1 ChP, you can raise a single attribute once. For an incremental 2 ChP you can raise a single attribute once more (so 3 ChP in total for a +2).

So why not just give them more starting experience then? instead of the 100 (or whatever) go to the knight level and give them 300 or 500?

Alternately, I allow Characteristics to be developed in-game at CharGen costs. I either keep the 25pt Talents that raise Characteristics, not only because that's the only way to get to 6, but because it's cheaper to buy than a Characteristic. Or, I replace the 25pt Talents that raise Characteristics with the most thematic option for the Class and cap at 5 (to balance the easier access to the Characteristic boosts).

That sounds like a terrible idea. Attributes for experience is waaaaaaaaay to easy to raise 'em when you have a constant flow of experience coming in.

I guess the question is: what exactly is broken about the game? Everything seems plenty cinematic as it is.

I don't see the point either. Allowing characteristics to be increased by simple xp is just a bad idea. EotE is well balanced in this regard and you can easily increase skill to 6, so a characteristic of 4 will still give you 2 green and 4 yellow dice. That's a very good dice pool (94% chance of success against difficulty 2dPurple and still 56% chance of success against 5 red dice).

There are a few very bad imbalances though (a fully tricked out brawler/doctor using pressure point for instance to one shot rancors and almost anything else - easily fixed though).

Pressure Point: You can’t modify damage by other talents, except Anatomy Lesson. Max base damage is 3 + Medicine (plus successes).

There are a few very bad imbalances though (a fully tricked out brawler/doctor using pressure point for instance to one shot rancors - easily fixed though).

Gee, thanks.

Frankly if I proposed some rules changes and a group of forum veterans with over 20 thousand posts between them said it was a bad idea, I might feel inclined to reassess my changes.

It reads to me that you don't know what you're doing and you don't know why you're doing it. You've played the Beta, decided that's nowhere near 'awesome' enough, and ramped everything up to 11.

But you've stated clearly that you're going to play your superhero game regardless of what everyone else thinks, so I don't see the point of arguing further.

Picture: A pair of cartoons. A pink haired girl and a blue haired boy with 3D glasses eating porcorn and drinking soda at the cinema.

I realize force works as is, if you play as is, and drawing on the darkside has no consequence short of losing some destiny points. If darkside has negative consequences the way it should, which it does in my games, 2 dice is not enough. That, and I wanted a more force-heavy group for the storyline I have planned.

I used to favor the D6 version of dark side punishment, do bad things, roll a dice and take a spin at the "you might lose your character" lottery. I've become more enlightened since then - that you don't need mechanics to do what a GM should be doing: handing out appropriate justice. If they start doing bad things, then those bad things have repercussions in game. The right people stop talking to them, the wrong ones start, the law has issues with them. The Empire sees them as fresh meat for their grinder - that sort of thing.

But a couple of bad force pips here and there? That's no big deal.

There are a few very bad imbalances though (a fully tricked out brawler/doctor using pressure point for instance to one shot rancors - easily fixed though).

Gee, thanks.

Yeah, if you're a player try that one out just to see the reaction from your GM. Pressure points, plus all the damage talents you can get, 5 brawn, 5 medicine... At higher levels we'll be looking at 20 strain damage (plus successes) ignored by soak, if you build a wicked brawler. And look up the strain threshold of a rancor ;-)

I house ruled it like this

Pressure Point: You can’t modify damage by other talents, except Anatomy Lesson. Max base damage is 3 + Medicine (plus successes).

Yeah, if you're a player try that one out just to see the reaction from your GM. Pressure points, plus all the damage talents you can get, 5 brawn, 5 medicine... At higher levels we'll be looking at 20 strain damage (plus successes) ignored by soak, if you build a wicked brawler. And look up the strain threshold of a rancor ;-)

Think “Two Weapon Combat”, so double those numbers, albeit for higher difficulty.

If I had the ability at the time we were facing the Lylek “momma” in her cave on Ryloth, I might have tried to use it.

Fortunately, I did not have the ability at that time, so the best I could do was to antagonize it as much as I could so as to get it to follow me, where we could then shoot at it with the twin Medium Laser Cannons from our ship — and did something like 12 ship-scale damage, doubled.

IIRC, we were able to capture the two youngling Lyleks so that we could put them to good use as the unwelcome surprise inside of a container that a Hutt was trying to get us to ship slaves in.

Dear god! A pressure point doctor can do that? Shades of Fist of the North Star!

(Haley, I'd try and tell you about the video - but some things just defy description)

I wouldn't be too concerned as he doesn't seem too concerned. He has said he's decided. He never seemed to interested in any body's advice in the first place. Maybe he thought he'd be lauded for his ingenuity, maybe not. I have no problem commending people when they have a good idea. And I'll offer advice when I think they are off course. At the end of the day they can take it or leave it. No skin off my back one way or another as his game has no impact on mine as mine does not impact his.

I think many of his issues could be solved by rebuilds and a better understanding of the rules as they have evolved, especially in regards to the Force. I am not a fan of heavy mechanics for Dark side use, and from what he said his own players were dissuaded from using the Force properly from his own mechanics. It is no wonder they were unhappy if he was forcing choices on them for their dark side use.

There are mild mechanics for dark side use, a little more if you use Morality. Otherwise, as noted, you should use dark side use as a reason to bring things into the game due to the characters' actions, leaving the choice to use it in the players' hands.

Just some thoughts.

Okay, having read the thread - and knowing that your mind is made up - I still have to know: what do you mean by "Not cinematic enough"? Are we talking Indy being dragged behind a truck full of Nazis trying to save the ark? Errol Flynn vs Basil Rathbone sword fighting in the Adventures of Robin Hood? Jackie Chan in a kung fu battle on a speeding train near the spinning blades of a crashed helicopter?

What is it that you are trying to simulate that the game engine - as written - is falling short of?

I don't think I've ever been complemented on my backpatting before...

I don't think I've ever been complemented on my backpatting before...

Remember though, it still doesn't mean we know what we are talking about.

And I don't know what Nobody did to you, but he's been on your naughty list for a long time.

Frankly if I proposed some rules changes and a group of forum veterans with over 20 thousand posts between them said it was a bad idea, I might feel inclined to reassess my changes.

It reads to me that you don't know what you're doing and you don't know why you're doing it. You've played the Beta, decided that's nowhere near 'awesome' enough, and ramped everything up to 11.

But you've stated clearly that you're going to play your superhero game regardless of what everyone else thinks, so I don't see the point of arguing further.

"nowhere near awesome enough"?? "ramped everything up to 11"??? You've clearly gotten so stuck on your opinion that you've failed to even begin calculating my changes. Have you even read the posts since my first one, other than to see that I disagree with you? o.O Do you even actually play the game? Or so little that you can't calculate quickly what a simple 160 in characteristics does? And what is YOUR point on this thread? Are you thinking that somehow by calling my idea "broken" without even a smidge of mechanical-support for your claim, that I'll change my mind despite my having thrown repeated mechanical evidence that shows you have no idea at all what you're talking about?!? You think being a "Veteran" with hundreds of posts on a forum makes you some expert?

I wouldn't be too concerned as he doesn't seem too concerned. He has said he's decided. He never seemed to interested in any body's advice in the first place. Maybe he thought he'd be lauded for his ingenuity, maybe not. I have no problem commending people when they have a good idea. And I'll offer advice when I think they are off course. At the end of the day they can take it or leave it. No skin off my back one way or another as his game has no impact on mine as mine does not impact his.

I think many of his issues could be solved by rebuilds and a better understanding of the rules as they have evolved, especially in regards to the Force. I am not a fan of heavy mechanics for Dark side use, and from what he said his own players were dissuaded from using the Force properly from his own mechanics. It is no wonder they were unhappy if he was forcing choices on them for their dark side use.

There are mild mechanics for dark side use, a little more if you use Morality. Otherwise, as noted, you should use dark side use as a reason to bring things into the game due to the characters' actions, leaving the choice to use it in the players' hands.

Just some thoughts.

If I was interested in nobody's opinion, I wouldn't have made the changes I've made. I'm just not interested in the opinions of people who make claims without supportive evidence to back it up. If someone's going to claim my mechanics are broken, throw at least the smallest amount of proof towards that claim instead of just your word and some veteran title on a forum.

As for Force, I was doing -precisely- what the book said to do, unlike all the people who just flip Destiny Points.

Quote from the book, page 278:

"The long-term consequences of constantly tapping into the dark side of the Force are left up to the roleplaying of the player and the GM. However, both should keep in mind that the dark side is born of fear, anger, and hatred, and those emotions should be present in the Player Character."

I've explained the exact mechanics I use for this in a previous post. It purely focuses on exaggerating the fear, anger and hatred of a character through descriptive roleplaying. Now, that I'm using Force and Destiny, I'm similarly going exactly by the book and using the Morality mechanics which are even nastier than my theme-tools. So while you are of course to remain in the delusional state of mind that believes I'm doing force mechanics wrong, you are doing so with no idea at all what I'm even doing. And yes, we are using the Morality rules which, despite your opinion on it, is more than "a little more" in mild mechanics, especially with 1 force dice (at char gen) and a dependency on your "power" working with it only having a 42% chance of doing so. It is very easy in a conflict heavy game to get at -least- 10 conflict points insuring a massive drop in morality. This isn't per-use of dark side Force, this is per dark-side force point (though with 1 dice at char-gen, that's not really a difference). So... he flips one destiny point from light to dark, increases his conflict (which if done multiple times in a single session insures morality loss), and suffers thematic damage. This isn't even counting the times when someone else uses the force on them, which if they defend against, will likely drink up more dark side Force than using a power, just to insure the nemesis fails in his usage.

Yeah... I know the rules. I enforce the rules too, in particular since use of dark side Force should be strongly discouraged. Also in particular, since a portion of the storyline I envision, has them trying to start a training program to protect the galaxy with not unlike the Jedi were, at least until Luke comes along and does it even better.

You might want to read the Force and destiny beta rules. They are what we are referring to. We are 2 years into the future in relation to where you are in the rules. Force and Destiny explains what the consequences you are referring to are. We have actually plaid with these conflict rules. You have not. If a character WANTS to go darkside. yes it is very easy to fall. One is not required to use those darkside pips. That is up to the character.

And no you really don't know the rules. You know the beta rules and are just now dipping into what has become a much broader set of rules. You keep just scratching the surface of how things work. Which is why we keep telling you. Try the rules as written. See how they work. If they do not give you the results you want. Then adjust them. But at least start from a place of knowledge. Not a place of assumptions.

You keep saying you want a cinematic game. We keep telling you the rules as written give you that. What are you looking for that you don't think the rules as written will give you?

@Daeglan:

Notice in that last post of mine the reciting of the Morality rules? Obviously, I'm very deep into the Force and Destiny rules... I practically cited them. If you want to continue telling me that I don't know the rules, at least show which rules I apparently am unaware of. Right now you're coming across as nothing more than someone trying to incite me using falsehoods.

Also, I do NOT keep saying I want a cinematic game, I said once, in the starting post, that my games are cinematic. And for the up-teenth time, I'm not "looking" for anything. I'm explaining why all the people who think my system is broken, are wrong. The real question is, what are you looking for? You're in a thread with a "House Rule" title, obviously not someone looking for canonical character creation, so you just keep repeating to not use House Rules. You're far too late for that, and your excuses for constantly demanding it are all false.

This thread is quickly becoming overly adversarial. Although I personally think the OP has made a mistake in his choice, it is his choice and he will have to either make it work or deal with the issues. I suggest Gryphynx that you edit your original post to reflect the fact that you no longer want comments on your rules, either that or ask a moderator to lock this thread.

@Eldath!!!

Seconded. I love the group, this game, and the users of this group. I am tired of logging on the Forum to see this topic keep getting renewed and updated.

The OP has made up his mind and is going with a rule set he sees fit. It does not matter if any of us agree with him or not. The only people that it should matter are his players. If the players don't like it, then it should be left up to them to determine what they want to do about it. I have many more opinions on this topic and my feelings about these changes to the riules, but I am sure that not many here want to read my thoughts, and I know the OP does not want to. (No disrespect intended.)

For the love of The Maker, please stop updating this DEAD topic!!!! I want to log on read new stuff!!

Well, as a reader only so far in this thread I finally decided to chip in.

The whole set-up seemed to be to try to make Greek food out of Sushi because the initital recipe wasn't Greek enough to begin with. That was quickly followed by "I took some of your advice and decided to use a broiler for the lamb." whereas no-one made any such recommendation... And the more everyone tries to argue their point to the OP the more confusing it seems to get. There is talk of "Poor reading skills", "Just your opinion" and "I'm just not interested in the opinions of people who make claims without supportive evidence to back it up" when at this time pretty much everyone in the thread has said, at least once, that it is your game and you are free to run it anyway that makes you happy.

It does not however resemble anything that anyone else here is playing and it should not be considered a houserule. It is a continuation of a Beta with so many changes it becomes a different system altogether and people are generally not understanding what it is you are looking to achieve.

The ability to purchase Force Rating means, if powers are used properly, that characters can potentially be tossing AT-ATs willy-nilly early on. That's just the Move power. High enough Force Rating and they can run with some powers activated and be tossing those AT-ATs. That Force user chart in the EotE beta is long gone the way of the dinosaurs. 2-3 Force dice is more than enough to have a competent Force user. 4-5 and you are in extremely competent. I suppose if you want to run a Force Unleashed game that's all right, but otherwise it is entirely too much power too quickly. Again, though, that may be your intention. If it is then fine.

Higher stats affect everything. I will grant you that the cap on characteristics and skills was not clear, but it is there. Buying attributes beyond Dedication was discussed early on during the beta, but it was determined that it just allowed for too much effectiveness. No matter the cost, because they affect so many things (wounds, strain, skills, soak) it was just to good an option to turn down. Hence the reason so many people suggest investing so much at chargen in characteristics. Again, though, if your intention is for a more powerful game then that's fine, you're just going to cap out sooner than many others as people will just be more competent overall.

By your admission your players were disaffected from using the Force. Now whether that stems from your misconceptions of how it works and/or your interpretation of "Dark" side Force use I can not say. I would think if something was negatively impacting my players' enjoyment of the game I would adjust for it as you are trying to do, but I think you are swinging the pendulum too far the other way giving out too much ability.

As I said, though, if your intention is to make them more powerful then that's fine, but i still think many problems would have been just as well served by rebuilds. But for those of us more familiar with the game, all we see is more power, especially with Force Rating. That is anathema to what we want or aim for. You run the potential for your Force characters to quickly outshine your non-Force users, something that was a common problem in earlier versions of the game, and something many here do not want to return to. Many people here are enjoying the balance of the game as it seems so far. It is by no means perfect, but it is pretty darn close for many.

@mouthymerc

It's less Force than you can get via "Force and Destiny". 1 of my player has the -potential- to reach Force 4 in game, the other players will be able to get Force 3 at best, and some can only get Force 2 because they didn't buy any Force at char-gen. If my allowing Force purchase is broke, then "Force and Destiny" is more broken.

If a +1 or +2 (at absolute best) in total characteristic points is broken (seriously, that 60 points can only get +2 if you generalize the character, ), then every Nemesis in the game is broken.

You saw right? 1 person got +2 to "total" characteristics with this rule. 2 people got +1 to "total" characteristics. The others didn't even get a characteristic boost. You guys are complaining about possible a +1 to a single characteristic.

Of 6 players, 2 of them have a permanent cap (max, not boost) of Force 2. 3 of them have a permanent cap of Force 3. 1 of them gets to possibly achieve Force 4. Ever. He could do that in Force and Destiny without leaving his Career (and without having to start with Chars of: 3,3,2,2,2,2)...

You can keep on about how broken it is, but you can only do so because you chose to blind yourself from the actual results.

This thread is quickly becoming overly adversarial. Although I personally think the OP has made a mistake in his choice, it is his choice and he will have to either make it work or deal with the issues. I suggest Gryphynx that you edit your original post to reflect the fact that you no longer want comments on your rules, either that or ask a moderator to lock this thread.

Editted.

@Eldath!!!

Seconded. I love the group, this game, and the users of this group. I am tired of logging on the Forum to see this topic keep getting renewed and updated.

The OP has made up his mind and is going with a rule set he sees fit. It does not matter if any of us agree with him or not. The only people that it should matter are his players. If the players don't like it, then it should be left up to them to determine what they want to do about it. I have many more opinions on this topic and my feelings about these changes to the riules, but I am sure that not many here want to read my thoughts, and I know the OP does not want to. (No disrespect intended.)

For the love of The Maker, please stop updating this DEAD topic!!!! I want to log on read new stuff!!

You know... nobody is forcing you to read this thread... (No disrespect intended.)

If my allowing Force purchase is broke, then "Force and Destiny" is more broken.

This is why we can't have nice things...

There is a difference between getting Force rating through the purchase of specs in the games and buying it up front. The costs to get a 3-4 Force Rating is traveling through multiple specs, generally 2-3 or more depending on which one. You only get your initial Force Rating either through the purchase of the Force specs in EotE or AoR or by taking a career in F&D. After that it is a fair investment traveling through trees to increase that Force rating. In Force and Destiny it takes at least two specs, but generally it is trade off for other benefits. Getting a Force rating up front just means you can dive into one tree and have plenty of Force dice without major investment. That skews balance.

Same for attributes. Easier access to characteristics and Force Rating will skew balance. Whether it is one or two points or more doesn't really matter it is still a bonus. Unless your intention is a power boost, which it seems to be. Even though your players didn't fully take advantage of what you did, doesn't mean the potential isn't there. By your offerings, there was the potential to come out with a much higher Force Rating by buying it up front and then piling on using the Force Rating talents in various trees by spending xp up front and then using remaining xp to purchase through specs.

This has the potential of skewing the balance between Force-users and non-Force users too, returning to the earlier issues of other versions.