Kyle shoots xwing

Roll 2 hits and crit

Xwing cancels two hits

Falcon in rng 1 with draw their fire takes crit

Does ion go through to xwing?

Nah the crit is considered cancelled by the "then cancel all dice results" line on the ion weapons. Therefore it can't be transfered by Draw Their Fire.

edit: for further clarification the wording on Draw Their Fire is "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled Critical Hit results", of which there is none since it was cancelled by the Ion effect.

The attack still hits, yes? Then the crit is cancelled and the X-wing takes one damage and an ion token. The crit is a dice result, and therefore cancelled, and it shouldn't matter whether the cancelling happens before or after DtF pulls it away, since the X-wing is the one getting hit.

The attack still hits, yes? Then the crit is cancelled and the X-wing takes one damage and an ion token. The crit is a dice result, and therefore cancelled, and it shouldn't matter whether the cancelling happens before or after DtF pulls it away, since the X-wing is the one getting hit.

Exactly. Ion cannons only care about whether the attack "hit" as defined in the rulebook. Once that is determined, the defender (which DTF does nothing to change) suffers the effects if any.

Thanks everyone

Was just trying to find the best way to explain it

I kmow I've seen this discussion before.

I can understand the confusion for new players. Thinking they can move the crit off with draw their fire.

But the dice results are canceled before dtf can take effect and no crit is dished out

There's two possible cases depending on how DTF works...

One is it would do nothing, because there are no uncanceled <crit> results.

Two, depending on how the timing works you could use DTF to pull the <crit> of the defender to the ship with DTF, at which point the defender still suffers the ion effect, and the DTF ship suffers a <crit>. So you accomplish nothing but cause damage to another ship.

Here's how it would work. I'm not saying it does work this way, just how it could work in theory.

The trigger for the Ion effect is a ship hit by an attack, the trigger for the DTF effect is also a ship hit by an attack. Since both have the same trigger then it's possible for the defending player to use DTF before the Ion effect kicks in. You then process the <crit> on the ship with DTF, and then you go back to the Defender and process the Ion effect, which cancels all remaining dice.

Again, I'm not sure it should work that way, just that it could, so please don't bother debating it with me. I'm just pointing out one possible interpretation and have been though the debate enough times already.

The key though is even if this was true, nothing about DTF changes the status of the Defender, that ship is still considered to be hit and so it suffers the ion effect.

Edit: for some reason I want to type DWT instead of DTF...

I understand what your getting at and I think I kind of explained it that way, but that makes it more confusing for new players.

I admit if I haven't seen this discussion in the past I probably would have thought the same way.

From a new players perspective if he moves the crit off with dtf then it looks like the crit didn't hit, therefore the ion doesn't happen.

He evades first two hits and then moves the crit.

However the crit did hit and now all dice are canceled and the ship takes one dmg and gets an ion.

Even if he did move the crit, the criteria for the ion has been filled and the ship still takes a dmg and ion

I think a faq should be in place for this. Because I can see how this could get confusing.

Especially with more ion effects being introduced into the game.

I'm teaching a lot of new players, and can be difficult trying to explain these type of effects.

but that makes it more confusing for new players.

I think the issue is that a lot of people get confused by what being Hit actually means. We see questions about it all the time on the rules form.

So if you explain a Hit doesn't actually require that any damage is done to the ship, and that taking damage doesn't always mean your ship is Hit it may help.

I don't think we'll see a FAQ because no one would ever actually use DTF on a ship hit with a Ion. If you were, you'd make a bad thing worse, because not only was the defender ionized but another ship suffered damage on top of it all.

There's two possible cases depending on how DTF works...

One is it would do nothing, because there are no uncanceled <crit> results.

Two, depending on how the timing works you could use DTF to pull the <crit> of the defender to the ship with DTF, at which point the defender still suffers the ion effect, and the DTF ship suffers a <crit>. So you accomplish nothing but cause damage to another ship.

DTF and the cancel-dice effect of the turret both occur in the same timing window, as far as I can tell, so I think it really depends on how you assign priority among the players.

(Practically, though, it won't make a difference: as you say, the options are that nothing happens or that the defender takes double damage, so there's no reason to activate DTF at all.)

Moreover, I think it's one of those effects that doesn't really work all that well in the rules, but--as long as you know what "hit" means--it's fairly straightforward to figure out what DTF does and how to resolve it. But it definitely does get sticky any time it interacts with other effects that happen on a hit.

Ok

How would you describe it to a new player.

Without making it confusing.

Some new players come from a long line of card games like mtg so when they read the card they don't think the dtf will cancel it out.

Sorry if I'm repeating.

Just have it worded in a way where they don't try to twist is around so to say.

And not confusing

I'd explain it like this.

A Hit is a game state, which is used as a trigger for other effects. A ship can be considered Hit because some effect sets the ship in that state, either because there are uncanceled dice with either a <hit> or <crit> result, after the compare dice step, or because of some other effect such as Lt. Blount.

A ship doesn't need to actually take damage to be considered being Hit, and taking damage doesn't mean it's hit.

I think if you stress the fact that a Hit is a game state, and not tied to damage or even dice results it may help.

Then it should be clear that once a ship is set to the Hit state, it stays that way regardless of what happens to the dice.

Makes sense to me