Thought exercise here folks, NOT a suggestion, and NOT a cry for a nerf/buff.

The (alleged) consensus is that Phantoms are almost too good, while Defenders are underwhelming. This seems to have been borne out by the Phantom's ripping up of the meta in Wave 4 and the Defender's er... competitive absence.

And on paper, it's easy to see why one became more popular than the other.

The Defender had a excellent 3-across-the-board stat line and a "neat trick".

The Phantom got the unprecedented 4 attack dice, the ability to boost itself to four defence dice, a super-boost/barrel roll move, and it's own unique ability-enhancing modifications.

And a crew slot. And the Systems Upgrade slot. And higher PS for the generics.

And it's cheaper, too.

But yes - all else aside - that Systems Upgrade slot. The Phantom gets some use out of it, granted (FCS I'm looking at you, Sensor Jammer too for those people who really have to be evil with Whisper) - but does it really need it?

And would the Defender have benefited from it more?

In my opinion, the generic Defenders would hacve loved the ability to take the Fire Control System, and Enhanced Scopes would have been amazing on the named pilots. I could easily see them getting use out of Sensor Jammer and Advanced Sensors as well (although that might have made them a little too much like an Imperial B-Wing).

Could this simple switch at the time Wave 4 hit have brought balance to the Force?

I think so, but I'm still under the opinion that you should not be able to use FCS without the Target Lock action on your bar anyway.

However, I don't think a system upgrade really fits the Defender as well as each pilot having access to a maximum of 2 EPT's, Since yes the Defender is a good all around ship, but the Pilots expertise is what makes it so feared in the fluff.

I personally just don't like Phantoms because of how badly they've ruined the meta. Since wave 4, lists have generally either been Phantom lists, Counter-Phantom lists (lookin' at you, Fat Han), or something to counter Fat Han. The game gets stale when that's all there is.

The big problem is that the Phantom has too many small things going for it for people to want to fly anything else. The 4 attack dice. The two best upgrade slots in the game. The best maneuverability. The possibility of 4 agility.
Individually, these things are good, but not game-breaking. Together, it's caused too much of a stir.

The Defender isn't a bad ship, it just has way too much competition. I don't think much of the named pilots, The stats are great. The dial is...unique, let's say. It has a place but people don't want to find it because there's shiny new Phantom thing

I think the Crew slot is the thing that would have made a bigger difference for the Defender.

All Defenders would be great with either Gunner or Recon Specialist but Rexlar would be a beast.

The power of the white K-Turn would shine if a Defender could take Tactician, Mara Jade, or Rebel Captive.

A crew slot would have induce more nerd rage than anything i've seen in quite some time. You'd have the Video Game purists yelling about heresy, and the guys who are sticklers for dimensions asking where the hell the 2nd guy is supposed to fit. At least the Phantom kinda sorta maybe could fit a 2nd guy in there.

As far as Gecko's proposal... I kinda like it. Gets rid of the entirely obnoxious Buzzsaw Whisper. 4 dice that IF you manage to avoid the first time you get hit with a much more accurate 2nd shot. Good Grief. The only other SU thats viable is Ehanced scopes on Sigmas generally.

But what would Defenders gain? Advanced sensors would be pretty useful, as you could BR to make blocking the 4k VERY hard. Also would help with the red hard moves. FCS would be good for missile play (yeah i know, if they ever get it working, sigh) as well as cannons. Enhanced scopes would again make it easier to get off your 4k before the PS 1 chaff gets to block. Sensor Jammer lets you joust all day as your opponents generally didnt get an action after matching your kturn, so no focus. Accuracy Corrector is left wanting, but thats the same for every ship that can currently take it anyway.

Huh. I guess SU slot would make Defenders better in just about every way, but without making them too strong, as they dont get any crazy synergy off of crew or anything like that.

The phantom had to have a crew slot, it was shown with 2 people flying it in the game.

The Defender isn't a bad ship, it just has way too much competition. I don't think much of the named pilots, The stats are great. The dial is...unique, let's say. It has a place but people don't want to find it because there's shiny new Phantom thing

...And Interceptors, and Firesprays, and EU shuttles, and plain old Tie Fighters.

I don't understand the recent sentiment that the Tie Phantom made the Defender bad. The Defenders problems are all its own, mostly being quite possible the most predictable ship in the game (even with the white K) and 30 point PS1 pilots with no EPTs.

Defenders just have so little to them for the price you pay. If it either had another passive upgrade slot, better overall PS, if the turns were easier, if it had boost without EU, or even a single extra hull or shield point for the same price, players would be far less hesitant. ANY of these would make it wothwhile, but as is it's just sad.

The phantom had to have a crew slot, it was shown with 2 people flying it in the game.

Tell that to the Y-wing. Yeah, I get that it is an invisible turret gunner, but the same argument can be made for the Phantom, say it's a cloak technician instead.

Giving the Phantom the two best upgrade slots in the game was a little bit much, even if fluff dictated it should have the crew slot. I am almost certain the Phantom got the Sensor slot just so it could take sensor jammer since it fits the fluff profile. If they had given the Defender the sensor slot it would have been great, but potentially too similar to the B-wing with Cannon and Sensors (plus ordnance), but it sure would have been a lot better (and improved it's relatively poor cost efficiency). Advanced Sensors to help with it's red turns, and FCS for some much needed action economy. Plus the Sensor slot fits with it's fluff profile as a top of the line ship with all the fancy tech.

Good to see people taking this thread in the spirit that it was intended!

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily believe either ship needs changing, but it's interesting to look back at what happened in Wave 4 with the benefit of hindsight. the Phantom and Z-95 both had pretty hug impacts on the game, the Defender and E-Wing much less so.

Maybe, but it still would be an expensive craft and even more so with something taking up the system slot. Start throwing system upgrades on the Named Defender pilots and they get north of 40 points quick. Brath with FCS would be pretty sweet though! There are plenty of threads discussing how to improve the Defender. I do think it needs some help. The new Cannons really don't help it much at all. I rather run Ion for 1 more point than Fletchette and a Delta with the Mangler is 1 more point than a Bounty Hunter. Once we get the Raider in hand, I don't know anyone who's going to take a Delta over a Tempest with ATC. Throw on a Shield Upgrade on the Tempest and it has pretty much the same stat line as the Defender for 4 points cheaper. I don't think that white K-turn is worth 4 points when the rest of the dial is not nearly as good as the Advanced.

The sensor slot on the Phantom makes sense and so does the crew when you look at the fluff. However, it does make the ship very good. Honestly, I think FFG messed up on the Phantoms dial more than anything. Its too good! If it didn't have the 1-hard turn it wouldn't nearly be as slippery as it is. I think it should of had more of a Tie Advanced dial than one of a Tie Fighters. Its a much larger craft than a Tie Fighter, so being able to maneuver like one didn't make so much sense to me. I guess they gave it a good dial to take full advantage of the cloak feature and add to the cloaking mechanism. Of course you could not cloak it at all and fly around like a Tie Fighter.

mmmm I'm of the opinion that the phantom doesnt lose much and the defender doesnt get the right tools for it to do its job. Even in my local meta phantoms (EXCEPT WHISPER) usually have empty system slots anyway. (Whisper is always armed with FCS to allow him to do the evade cloak focus combo). Hence, taking away the sensor slot doesnt really hurt the phantoms much.

Sensor slots on the Defenders would be pretty interested, but not necessary nor game changing either. Sure, the higher PS defenders could use advanced sensors to roll before doing the Kturn, or at the very least pick up a focus before a collision. Sensor Jammer may or may not make them live a bit longer, FCS is FCS, combos extremely well with Rex but not particularly useful with Vess, and that's pretty much it i suppose. It doesnt address the Defender's problem of not exactly dealing its own 30-40ish pts worth of damage to the opponent, it doesnt address the Defender's problem of bad dice rolls = suddenly it isnt as tough as you think it would be, especially when you see it go down in 2-3 shots. It doesnt quite adequately address learning curve issues with the Defender's tricky dial and placement. It doesnt really help either named pilot pull off their abilities easier

Yes i think that would have been a great idea. I don't see the System Slot used a lot anyway on the Phantom except the occasional FCS.

While the Defender on the other hand is in desperate need for options. Missiles being a non-option really, cannon and modification is about all they have...

Sadly FFG decided otherwise, to have one of the coolest looking ships be a piece of space-junk and, well, the Phantom on the other side got really all the cookies.

Edit: Also, just think about Vessery and Brath with FCS or Advanced Sensors. FCS alone could be enough to make them worth it.

mmmm I'm of the opinion that the phantom doesnt lose much and the defender doesnt get the right tools for it to do its job. Even in my local meta phantoms (EXCEPT WHISPER) usually have empty system slots anyway. (Whisper is always armed with FCS to allow him to do the evade cloak focus combo). Hence, taking away the sensor slot doesnt really hurt the phantoms much.

Sensor slots on the Defenders would be pretty interested, but not necessary nor game changing either. Sure, the higher PS defenders could use advanced sensors to roll before doing the Kturn, or at the very least pick up a focus before a collision. Sensor Jammer may or may not make them live a bit longer, FCS is FCS, combos extremely well with Rex but not particularly useful with Vess, and that's pretty much it i suppose. It doesnt address the Defender's problem of not exactly dealing its own 30-40ish pts worth of damage to the opponent, it doesnt address the Defender's problem of bad dice rolls = suddenly it isnt as tough as you think it would be, especially when you see it go down in 2-3 shots. It doesnt quite adequately address learning curve issues with the Defender's tricky dial and placement. It doesnt really help either named pilot pull off their abilities easier

Advanced Sensors are almost always good, but the named Defender pilots woulrd REALLY benefit from Enhanced Scopes = just a 1 point upgrade, too. The White K is predictable which is a problem at high PS, but when you activate at PS0 it would be all but impossible to block. Sensor Jammer would make them more resilient to bad rolls, and Delta Squadron Pilots would no doubt love Fire Control Systems.

Phantoms I agree wouldn't lose an awful lot (Buzzsaw Whisper aside), but it would help tone them down slightly.

I think what they tried to do was to create a contrast between the Ewing and the TIEdef. The Ewing was supposed to be a pretty mediocre ship empty but be kickass when loaded with the right upgrades. On the other hand, the TIEdef looks like it was supposed to be a pretty kickass ship on its own without any extra upgrades needed.

mmmm I'm of the opinion that the phantom doesnt lose much and the defender doesnt get the right tools for it to do its job. Even in my local meta phantoms (EXCEPT WHISPER) usually have empty system slots anyway. (Whisper is always armed with FCS to allow him to do the evade cloak focus combo). Hence, taking away the sensor slot doesnt really hurt the phantoms much.

Sensor slots on the Defenders would be pretty interested, but not necessary nor game changing either. Sure, the higher PS defenders could use advanced sensors to roll before doing the Kturn, or at the very least pick up a focus before a collision. Sensor Jammer may or may not make them live a bit longer, FCS is FCS, combos extremely well with Rex but not particularly useful with Vess, and that's pretty much it i suppose. It doesnt address the Defender's problem of not exactly dealing its own 30-40ish pts worth of damage to the opponent, it doesnt address the Defender's problem of bad dice rolls = suddenly it isnt as tough as you think it would be, especially when you see it go down in 2-3 shots. It doesnt quite adequately address learning curve issues with the Defender's tricky dial and placement. It doesnt really help either named pilot pull off their abilities easier

Advanced Sensors are almost always good, but the named Defender pilots woulrd REALLY benefit from Enhanced Scopes = just a 1 point upgrade, too. The White K is predictable which is a problem at high PS, but when you activate at PS0 it would be all but impossible to block. Sensor Jammer would make them more resilient to bad rolls, and Delta Squadron Pilots would no doubt love Fire Control Systems.

Phantoms I agree wouldn't lose an awful lot (Buzzsaw Whisper aside), but it would help tone them down slightly.

complete agreement on the Enhanced Scopes, completely forgot that card existed

Actually Advanced Sensors would be awesome for the named Defender pilots to prevent being blocked.

The spot where you would land with your white k-turn is occupied already? No problem - just do a barrel first.

FCS would be awesome for generic pilots.