I mean that has to be one of the single most egotistical things I've seen in some time. Calling someone a name simply because they have a different opinion than you.

I think he mixed up modified models with completely legal repaints.

You don't need every opponent, every turn, every game to make the mistake. All it takes is a single person, in a single turn, when planning a single dial to make that mistake, and mix up converted Wedge and a Tala.

Would you mix up converted Wedge and a Rookie?

I'm not defending trying to trick someone with the wrong miniature or a miniature converted to look like the wrong miniature. I'm saying that people converting minis to look like other minis is so unlikely to work that it doesn't even bear consideration. As soon as one person notices the baseplate doesn't match the mini they'll be caught.

If someone were to cut the top gun off a E-Wing for example, I could see them think there's no reason to bother the TO with it, after all who's going to complain about it?

Some people in this thread have stated they'd go straight to the TO on the spot if they saw a gunless E-wing. Hence the heated discussion.

The rules are clear that alterations to the size and shape are not permitted. Making the converted model not legal for use. The TO can overrule the printed rules in this matter, but until they do the rules wouldn't allow even a completely benign modification.

If a player has read the tournament rules they should be aware of the modification rules and thus consult the TO prior to the event. Because without his approval they are not playing with legal components.

You don't need every opponent, every turn, every game to make the mistake. All it takes is a single person, in a single turn, when planning a single dial to make that mistake, and mix up converted Wedge and a Tala.

Would you mix up converted Wedge and a Rookie?

I'm not defending trying to trick someone with the wrong miniature or a miniature converted to look like the wrong miniature. I'm saying that people converting minis to look like other minis is so unlikely to work that it doesn't even bear consideration. As soon as one person notices the baseplate doesn't match the mini they'll be caught.

Plenty of people have mistaken one pilot in the same ship for another, I'm sure. The rules of the game, by allowing you to run multiple ships of the same type, allow that possibility. The rules do not allow for mistakes made because of confusing conversions.

Because without his approval they are not playing with legal components.

Sure, but that assumes everyone is going to interpret the rule the same way.

Is rotating a B-Wing changing the shape of the model? Some would would say yes, some would say no. If you don't believe it does, then it's a completely legal modification. But the TO may not agree with you and could in theory DQ you. You didn't bother clearing it first because you didn't think there was anything to clear.

Is rotating a B-Wing changing the shape of the model?

Very slightly if you turn the cockpit.

Plenty of people have mistaken one pilot in the same ship for another, I'm sure. The rules of the game, by allowing you to run multiple ships of the same type, allow that possibility. The rules do not allow for mistakes made because of confusing conversions.

I don't follow. You could hypothetically play the game with no models at all and it'd still be clear which ship is which.

No altering the orientation of a model would not be altering it's shape, just by basic use of language and reasoning. A square rotated 90 degrees is still a square. You have not changed the shape until you start extending sides, loping of corners, and the like.

You have to cut the cockpit off and rotate it relative to the model. Horizontalising a B-wing is changing the model. It's also completely harmless and I struggle to think why anyone would complain about it. It's more canonically accurate than the vertical.

Is rotating a B-Wing changing the shape of the model?

Very slightly if you turn the cockpit.

Plenty of people have mistaken one pilot in the same ship for another, I'm sure. The rules of the game, by allowing you to run multiple ships of the same type, allow that possibility. The rules do not allow for mistakes made because of confusing conversions.

I don't follow. You could hypothetically play the game with no models at all and it'd still be clear which ship is which.

Except for the fact that you'd frequently have to be checking which base is which as there is no easily visable model to recognize from normal play distances. In a timed tournament that is likely a non tenable play environment.

In that type of game I'm very sure there would be even more mistaken identity issues in fact.

No altering the orientation of a model would not be altering it's shape, just by basic use of language and reasoning.

Sure I agree, but that doesn't mean every TO is going to agree. It may not be reasonable on their part, but as the TO their decision is final, reasonable or not.

Or how about this...

I paint a twi'lek dancer on the side of my Firespray. The rules allow me to paint my ship, and it even fits the lore. There is absolutely no reason at all for me to clear this with the TO.

Only someone playing see's it and gets offended. They go complain to the TO about it. Most likely the TO would tell them to go sit down and shut up about it... But maybe they don't, maybe the person makes such a big fuss about it the TO decides to rule in their favor just to shut them up and asks you to swap it out for something else. But you don't have anything to swap it with... Then what?

You can't just say the other guy is a jerk and be done with it, because while he may be a jerk it's his or her right to ask the TO to deal with something he or she finds offensive.

Except for the fact that you'd frequently have to be checking which base is which as there is no easily visable model to recognize from normal play distances.

I don't agree there, the bases have pictures of the ship, statlines unique to the ship, pilot names, pilot skills, you're usually sitting right in front of the board. On the flipside you certainly could not play the game without baseplates.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Only someone playing see's it and gets offended. They go complain to the TO about it. Most likely the TO would tell them to go sit down and shut up about it... But maybe they don't, maybe the person makes such a big fuss about it the TO decides to rule in their favor just to shut them up and asks you to swap it out for something else. But you don't have anything to swap it with... Then what?

You can't just say the other guy is a jerk and be done with it, because while he may be a jerk it's his or her right to ask the TO to deal with something he or she finds offensive.

If someone coerces a TO into disqualifying someone then they definitely are a jerk.

It's also completely harmless and I struggle to think why anyone would complain about it.

Just because you can't think of a reason doesn't mean someone else doesn't have a very legitimate to them anyway reason for complaining about it.

Never underestimate a persons ability to get offended over stupid stuff.

Over a horizontal B-wing?

Over a horizontal B-wing?

I've seen worse. I've seen people offended because I opened a door for them.

Is anyone even saying a horizontal B-Wing violates the tournament rules? Rotating the cockpit doesn't even change the ship of the ship, it's a symmetrical coneshaped cockpit. Seriously, that's not an example you should keep using.

Edit: NVM, I see VanorDM said a page ago that it might, but I disagree that this constitutes a change to the model's shape and shouldn't be subject to a TO's discretion.

For the most part I think Tie Pilot and I agree on things...

But the issue is, Tie seems to be assuming the best from people. Assuming they'll be as reasonable as he is, or as most people really should be.

Yes there is no good reason I can think of for someone to be upset about a B-Wing that's rotated. But you shouldn't assume no one else will think up a reason, or even have one that you or I would consider reasonable.

Because reasonable is not a requirement.

For me... I had a lot of my faith in humanity destroyed when I spent a few months several years ago helping run online XvT and Jedi Knight events. Can't remember the name of the group that ran it, but I'd bet some people here took part in it, this was back in the days of the MS Gaming Zone...

People were supposed to post their scores to a web page, and since the loser posted, it was assumed people would be in general honest about it. Good God no... Part of what I did was check results for outliers. The stories people would try to feed me were just stunning.

Is anyone even saying a horizontal B-Wing violates the tournament rules? Rotating the cockpit doesn't even change the ship of the ship, it's a symmetrical coneshaped cockpit. Seriously, that's not an example you should keep using.

Edit: NVM, I see VanorDM said a page ago that it might, but I disagree that this constitutes a change to the model's shape and shouldn't be subject to a TO's discretion.

Seriously, that's not an example you should keep using.

Someone in this thread said they would call the TO for it.

Why are all the rules lawyers that are so picky that they would complain about a rotated B-wing not so picky about this rule?

UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behaviour, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The TO, at his sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.

If I was a TO and someone was trying to have someone disqualified for a rotated B-Wing, I'd be more inclined to DQ the complainer on the grounds of the above rule.

Who would I rather have playing at my tournament?

Someone who has converted a model (not for advantage, but for rule of cool) and play in the spirit of the game, or someone trying to abuse the rules for a cheap win?

Why are all the rules lawyers that are so picky that they would complain about a rotated B-wing not so picky about this rule?

UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behaviour, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The TO, at his sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.

If I was a TO and someone was trying to have someone disqualified for a rotated B-Wing, I'd be more inclined to DQ the complainer on the grounds of the above rule.

Who would I rather have playing at my tournament?

Someone who has converted a model (not for advantage, but for rule of cool) and play in the spirit of the game, or someone trying to abuse the rules for a cheap win?

This is not about one player asking another player to be disqualified, that's obviously poor sportsmanship, and it was something that was inserted into the debate not by the person who said he would call a TO. Calling a TO over to clarify a rules issue is NOT the same as trying to get them disqualified, that's an assumption of intent that cannot be proven. "TO, is it okay for him to change his models like that?" is not the same as "TO, DQ this person!" I don't support someone having the right to call for another player's DQ, that's unsportsmanlike conduct. I do support a player's right to bring in a TO to clarify a rules issue, and for both players to play according to the TO's ruling. And yes this is a rules issue because it's addressed in the X-Wing tournament rules.

Come on people, you shouldn't be so eager to assume someone is trying to do something malicious just by calling a TO over to clarify. Instead of blaming your opponent for doing something that is their right, just be accountable for your own decisions to break the tournament rules and either clear it with the TO first or bring legal models or don't play.

What reason would someone have to call over a TO then if not to have them disqualified?

I cant think of any.

"TO, is it okay for him to change his models like that?"

"Yes"

End - no gain.

"TO, is it okay for him to change his models like that?"

"No - do you have unmodified spares?"

"No"

"Disqualified"

End - Cheap win.

If they were truly going for the first answer, then there's no point in asking the TO in the first place.

Come on people, you shouldn't be so eager to assume someone is trying to do something malicious just by calling a TO over to clarify.

If you call a TO over to a minor model modification and the TO agrees with you there are only two possible outcomes: the model is replaced or the player is disqualified. If you're not after one of those two, why call the TO?

Let's do it. I'll even stick them into grayscale to make it as extreme as possible, above and beyond what you'd encounter in an actual game.

As you can see, the two minis still have distinct shapes. You could cut the wings off and still tell them apart.

Even if we chop two guns off the X-wing so that it actually does look like a Z-95 you still wouldn't mix it up with the official Z-95 mini. You can tell it's not made from a Z-95 mini.

FFG did a good job of making the Z-95 look like the X-wing's precursor rather than an X-wing with two wings chopped off.

I don't think it's likely at all that a closed foils X-wing would be confused with a Z-95.

Thank you for doing that, it definitely proves my point, to me at least. I have to look at them for a few seconds before I can tell which is which. If I just flash the page over them, I cannot tell the difference, especially the bottom 2, they look identical if I only look at them for a second. And yes, that extra 5-10 seconds I have to stare at each of your ships so I don't get mixed up is annoying and slows down the game, which is a major factor in timed games. Also keep in mind that constantly leaning in close to the table or picking up the models to compare them side by side would be pretty disruptive.

Being able to tell the different types of ships on the table apart at a very quick glance is extremely important for playing the game in an expedient manner under a time limit and for avoiding mistakes based on a misperception of which ships are where. If you think that those two images would be easy to tell apart at a glance when put on a tabletop, especially after having played 4+ hours of games, I think you're kidding yourself.

edit: I would also like to point out from a philosophical perspective, that if something that is not necessary for the game (altering the shape of the ships provided in the expansions) is causing a problem for one player but not the other, and therefore giving one player an advantage, then it shouldn't be allowed. I will point out that altering ships is not a part of the game and players are not expected to be able to do so as a prerequisite to play (unlike some other minis games).

You know, FFG could easily make a post in this thread explaining why they made that rule and then just close it. I know FFG has a stance of "read the forums but don't interact", but it would be really helpful if they would just step in sometimes. If the rule had no reason to exist, then they wouldn't have made it.

It's fairly clear why it exists: to make sure you're not proxying the models or modifying them in such a way that does actually impede gameplay. If you can modify them to the point where they're unrecognisable how do you prove it's the original model and not say, a converted Starship Battles one?

It's far easier to officially blanket ban it and then leave the extent of "alterations to size and shape" up to the TO than try and maintain some sort "acceptable conversion" criteria. That being said I don't FFG themselves are that aggressive about it. They've explicitly said magnet mounting is okay.

I would guess that the rule is there for 2 reasons.

1 To ensure that players buy and use genuine FFG products and don't stick old models on bases which look naff and lessen their product.

2. To prevent modelling for advantage. Which could be done, but broken ships and rotated B-wings certainly are not.

I would also guess that the rule is NOT there to have players disqualified for petty reasons - which is why they have the unsportsmanlike behaviour rule.

Was anyone at Worlds?

Were rotated B-Wings allowed there?

That would give us FFGs official stance on rotated B-Wings right there.