and BT doesn't currently, (I don't know if it might have been decades ago).

I've played every version of BT since the mid 80's, and that has never ever been an official rule.

It has everything to do with it.

The premise is people confusing one ship with another based on the models and the premise is nonsense.

You're not telling ships apart by "careful study", you know which ship is which. You talk of a mental map of the field being screwed up by an unusual model or paintjob assignment, but you know which ship is which from the outset and that mental map will be built around that.

If you know which ship is which at the start of the game you'll know if one has an unusual appearance (such as Soontir in a red interceptor) and it's wholly unrealistic to suggest that you wouldn't know which ship is which at the start of the game because you look at the opponent's cards to see what they've got and their bases to see which ship is where.

That's completely true. If you're an android.

Are you claiming you sit down to play tournament matches and don't look at what your opponent is flying?

Are you claiming you sit down to play tournament matches and don't look at what your opponent is flying?

I'm pretty sure he isn't. But he also isn't claiming to have perfect recall which you seem to assume everyone does.

Since it is completely possible that someone may forget exactly what the other guy has. But assume he does in fact remember correctly, make a decision based on faulty data, and have that quite naturally be a bad decision.

Yes you can double check what the other guy has at any point. But if you believe you remember correctly and/or are in a hurry you may not do that.

I'm pretty sure he isn't. But he also isn't claiming to have perfect recall which you seem to assume everyone does.

You don't need perfect recall.

If you forget which ship is which during a match what's the first thing you do?

Check.

In the heat of a game you might (and it's not very likely) mix up an Academy Pilot and Howlrunner that happen to be next to each other when setting a dial because they're on the opposite side of the table and you glanced at them. It's even less likely to affect the game because if they're close enough to mix up then it's unlikely that one will be in arc and the other won't.

But to confuse Soontir Fel with an RGI because he's in a red interceptor and then to suggest that it's so much of an issue that it should be ruled illegal to run Soontir Fel if you don't own Imperial Aces and then only in the bloodstriped Interceptor?

For a start, both Soontir and an RGI have to be in play. At at least 55pt including the autoinclude PTLs you're probably only dealing with four or even three enemy ships in that case, so you haven't exactly got much to track. You've got a higher chance of mixing up Phennir and Fel in "correct" interceptors than mixing up Fel and an RGI because Fel's in a red one. Plus, Fel being in a red interceptor is unusual, something you'll almost certainly note as unusual when you see it at the start of the game. Every time you see that red interceptor is a reminder of that thought. It's simply not going to happen. You don't get people getting confused as to which ship is which when they go up against 3 X-wings. When you fight a triple Defender setup you don't get confused as to which one is Vessery.

All I can say if mixing up ships in a game where their identities are written in high constrast on the bases is genuinely an issue then they're doomed the moment an opponent puts down a TIE swarm.

@1st and 2nd post: But your not taking into account how crafty this person is or how willing they are to make sure you dont know what they have. They will make sure you only get verbal information, thats incorrect.

As for seeing the base clearly thats something a shield token can cover nicley. That det doesnt matter though because for this to work they have to verbally lie (tell them they are all RGI) too the other player while making sure all they see is the red minis, in this example, and deploy them where they see fit. Just doing this for turn zero is enough to have a advantage in that game.

Not everyperson, I would wager most people wouldnt, is going to assume or feel the need to look at that persons craft cards after they were just told what craft they have while the victim also only sees the Red Interceptors.

...

You're suggesting that, in a tournament, your opponent hides all of their baseplates and cards from view, refuses to show you their list, openly lies about what they're running, deploys their ships in the wrong order during setup and that you'll just assume based on verbal information what all their ships are and not notice that anything is wrong while your opponent covers their bases and hides their cards?

I don't even need to rebut this. Anyone reading it can see how crazy it is. It's its own best counterargument.

ALSO 117 I didnt give you permission to quote me and post my posts on other websites. You will ask for here on out.

Anything you post on this forum you post publically and he can quote it as much as he likes.

Are you claiming you sit down to play tournament matches and don't look at what your opponent is flying?

I am claiming I make decisions based on my mental map of the table. My mental map is imperfect. It might start out 100% accurate when I examine all the ships on the table and their cards, it might be refreshed when I take the time to examine all the ships again, in between those times it drifts and is updated by glances, memories and things seen out of the corner of my eye. If something glanced at or seen out of the corner of my eye registers in my head as the wrong ship then my map is now wrong. It might be updated next turn when I check the base of that ship, but by then it's too late.

Perhaps you don't work that way, perhaps you carefully examine every base every turn, or have perfect memory. I don't. Other people don't.

In the heat of a game you might (and it's not very likely) mix up an Academy Pilot and Howlrunner that happen to be next to each other. But confuse Soontir Fel with an RGI because he's in a red interceptor?

For a start, both Soontir and an RGI have to be in play. At at least 55pt including the autoinclude PTLs you're probably only dealing with four or even three enemy ships in that case, so you haven't exactly got much to track. You've got a higher chance of mixing up Phennir and Fel in "correct" interceptors than mixing up Fel and an RGI because Fel's in a red one. Plus, Fel being in a red interceptor is unusual, something you'll almost certainly note as unusual when you see it at the start of the game. Every time you see that red interceptor is a reminder of that thought.

I think that could easily happen, but to be honest it's not really the point. You see an Interceptor and your brain automatically, without having to think about it, goes "well, I know I've got these interceptors on the board, based on the movements I've seen it'll be this one". If it's not a model you recognise then you don't get that, you have to think about it, you don't have an automatic, almost subconscious appreciation of what it is and what effect it has.

If you forget which ship is which during a match what's the first thing you do?

See that's the problem... You don't seem to be able to accept basic human failure. Sure if I forget which ship is which I'll check. But I may very well assume I know which ship is which and not bother to check. Because I think I know which ship is which.

I just can't see how you have so much problem accepting basic human failure. You keep arguing as if a mistake is not possible.

That there is no conceivable way that someone could make a decision based on what they assume is the correct data, but are in fact mistaken. But because they think they in fact have the correct data there is no need to double check what they already know.

Your whole argument seems based on the premise that there is no way possible for someone to make a mistake, because either they have perfect recall, or else will never assume that they know which ship is which.

That in the history of X-Wing, no one has ever assumed that they know which Tie is Howlrunner, only to find out that they were wrong.

I am claiming I make decisions based on my mental map of the table. My mental map is imperfect. It might start out 100% accurate when I examine all the ships on the table and their cards, it might be refreshed when I take the time to examine all the ships again, in between those times it drifts and is updated by glances, memories and things seen out of the corner of my eye. If something glanced at or seen out of the corner of my eye registers in my head as the wrong ship then my map is now wrong. It might be updated next turn when I check the base of that ship, but by then it's too late.

Perhaps you don't work that way, perhaps you carefully examine every base every turn, or have perfect memory. I don't. Other people don't.

You manage against a 7 TIE swarm, don't you? If you can manage that I struggle to believe you can't manage to keep track of Soontir Fel flying in a bright red miniature.

It might start out 100% accurate when I examine all the ships on the table and their cards, it might be refreshed when I take the time to examine all the ships again, in between those times it drifts and is updated by glances, memories and things seen out of the corner of my eye.

It's also fully refreshed twice every round by the activation sequence.

Your whole argument seems based on the premise that there is no way possible for someone to make a mistake, because either they have perfect recall, or else will never assume that they know which ship is which.

Of course it's possible to make a mistake, it's just very improbable and not a major issue. Yes, humans make crazy random mistakes all the time.

What I'm arguing against is the ludicrous suggestion that flying a repaint or a non-extreme conversion is going to cause the opponent to make that mistake. That if I fly Soontir Fel in a red TIE interceptor or use the Bloodstripe for an Alpha that you won't be able to cope. If anything, the unusual jobs make you more alert to which ship is which.

What I'm arguing against is the ludicrous suggestion that flying a repaint or a non-extreme conversion is going to cause the opponent to make that mistake.

I'm not making that argument. I agree with you that Jax in a non-red Interceptor shouldn't cause anyone any real issue. Likewise a X-Wing that has been modified to have it's s-foils closed shouldn't cause an issue either.

However that is not at all what you seem to be saying. Your stance as I read it, is that it is completely unreasonable for anyone to ever mistake one ship for another no matter what.

Such an argument would be throughly off-topic, no?

If you think I'm saying that it's impossible to confuse two ships under any circumstances, then I can see why you and mazz0 disagree so strongly with me. Given how long this discussion's gone on for I can see how people coming in later could get that idea.

I'm disagreeing very strongly with Black Knight Leader on the matter of using red interceptors for 181st pilots will cause that player to make that mistake or amplify its probability to any significant degree. It's completely possible for a player to completely brainfart and mix up two ships anyway, but it's not very likely given the game constantly reminds you which ship is which in activations and a ship's identity is written in high constrast on a ship's base so if there's ever any doubt at all it takes you two seconds to see which ship is which. That's assuming you can't see the bases from where you're sitting anyway.

I'm also more generally disagreeing with the suggestion that a player would make the same mistake based on a closed S-foil X-wing and Z-95.

then I can see why you and mazz0 disagree so strongly with me.

I figured we were talking past each other. Which is likely as much our fault as yours, because clearly we weren't being as clear as we could.

I'm disagreeing very strongly with...

I agree with you on both points. It would take a fairly substantial modification before it would become an issue.

Lol, and I should care you saw my original post why? I realized after I posted it that arguing with you was pointless and perhaps I was wrong, maybe other groups did play the game that way (though unlike your original point that "any" battletech player would be used to giving up their minis is completely false, it may happen but it's the rare by everything I've seen) and I left out BFG as I only play the game occasionally and haven't played in a campaign for that game nor have I read every one of its books so there might have been something there, as such I decided not to argue that point as I felt I don't have a strong enough grasp on that game to argue that point .

Proof? what exactly would I show you that could possibly prove how long I've been playing? and in any case how would I know you wouldn't continue making me "prove" whatever I show you?

sock-puppet? cute .

No you left out BFG to make me look bad and failed. I took the fight too your website and told them the truth... You might want to tread carefully over there from here on out.

Unlike you I used refrences, you havent.

Any rules regarding giving up miniatures in either Battletech or Battlefleet Gothic is entirely a house rules thing. I know the rules for both systems, and neither has anything like that. OK, BFG never had it, and BT doesn't currently, (I don't know if it might have been decades ago).

What both games have is an options in friendly campaigns (not official tournament games, as in those games you used fixed lists you produce before you start the game, so "capturing" things wasn't even a thing) that ships or mechs can be recovered from the battlefield and then fielded by the enemy... however, this does not require you to hand over the models. You might do between friends to facilitate the capture (and I could certainly see letting your friend borrow the model), but that is entirely a private thing, not required by the rules. If you wanted to do it you were expected to buy and build your own model.

Your half right but you ignored my refrences I used for BFG.

@1st and 2nd post: But your not taking into account how crafty this person is or how willing they are to make sure you dont know what they have. They will make sure you only get verbal information, thats incorrect.

As for seeing the base clearly thats something a shield token can cover nicley. That det doesnt matter though because for this to work they have to verbally lie (tell them they are all RGI) too the other player while making sure all they see is the red minis, in this example, and deploy them where they see fit. Just doing this for turn zero is enough to have a advantage in that game.

Not everyperson, I would wager most people wouldnt, is going to assume or feel the need to look at that persons craft cards after they were just told what craft they have while the victim also only sees the Red Interceptors.

...

You're suggesting that, in a tournament, your opponent hides all of their baseplates and cards from view, refuses to show you their list, openly lies about what they're running, deploys their ships in the wrong order during setup and that you'll just assume based on verbal information what all their ships are and not notice that anything is wrong while your opponent covers their bases and hides their cards?

I don't even need to rebut this. Anyone reading it can see how crazy it is. It's its own best counterargument.

ALSO 117 I didnt give you permission to quote me and post my posts on other websites. You will ask for here on out.

Anything you post on this forum you post publically and he can quote it as much as he likes.

@1stpost: You keep on adding things or ignoring things I posted. I didnt say the craft would be out of deployment order. Your also not thinking this scenario.through.

*At best without the sheet and without being told what the ships are youll find out what they really are after turn zero. Techically speaking by this point you have no bussiness being at their side of the table when the movement dials are having their movemts selected. So your best bet before turn 1 after they have told you what ships they have is to look at their cards that are upside down 3+ feet away and thats if that person isnt covering a card or more with their hands, probably while leaning on the table with one or both hands, while looking tired, you know not suspicious.

Now back too the ship base itself going with the scenario IM using they will really have 2-3 RGIs the last one they put down is Fel. Because they lost their sheet, they told you they had 3-4 RGI before ships were even put on the table and you didnt get a clear look at the cards, It is reasonable to conclude their will be a good amount of people fooled by this tactic. As the game goes on more players will be aware something is wrong but that doesnt matter, they already got an advantage before / during turn zero.

@2ndpost: Your not actully DEFENDING a guy that just jumped in here, made false claims about me did you? So you were a hostile hmm...

@1stpost: You keep on adding things or ignoring things I posted. I didnt say the craft would be out of deployment order.

Then that's another thing to alert you that something's up.

*At best without the sheet and without being told what the ships are youll find out what they really are after turn zero. Techically speaking by this point you have no bussiness being at their side of the table when the movement dials are having their movemts selected. So your best bet before turn 1 after they have told you what ships they have is to look at their cards that are upside down 3+ feet away and thats if that person isnt covering a card or more with their hands, probably while leaning on the table with one or both hands, while looking tired, you know not suspicious.

*facedesk*

I understand your scenario just fine, and it's silly.

All pilot and upgrade cards are available to all players to reference at all times. When you're setting up, you look at what your opponent has and they look at what you've got. That's how this game works. If you can't see his cards you can go over there and look at them before the game. During the game you're fully within your rights to ask to see their cards. If your opponent is hiding their cards, obscuring their bases with tokens and refuses to let you see what they've got then you're going to call the TO on them.

Now back too the ship base itself going with the scenario IM using they will really have 2-3 RGIs the last one they put down is Fel. Because they lost their sheet, they told you they had 3-4 RGI before ships were even put on the table and you didnt get a clear look at the cards, It is reasonable to conclude their will be a good amount of people fooled by this tactic.

No, people will not be fooled because if the opponent is actively hiding his list and his baseplates and insisting you get on with the game just about anyone will smell a rat. Including an actual rat.

That, and even if, for the sake of argument, they did both assume a red interceptor is a Royal Guard and not have any suspicions of foul play whatsoever when their opponent physically hides their list like a dragon hoard and carefully positions tokens to obscure names assume that then those RGIs are still not defined. In case you've forgotten, Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax also use red interceptors. Even if this entire scenario wasn't comically improbable it would still be irrelevant to paint jobs.

@2ndpost: Your not actully DEFENDING a guy that just jumped in here, made false claims about me did you? So you were a hostile hmm...

Just stating a fact. You also may have missed that he was backing me up in my assertion that a proper miniatures game where you get to steal and vandalise other players' artwork sounds so... wrong, that I doubted it was true. I also read the thread he linked: the idea was discussed but contrary to your assertion not one member there backed up it being an official rule of the game.

I don't enter tournaments so I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak.

But don't most people play tournaments to win? Sure some want to win at all costs but most, if not everyone, is there to win. And most, if not everyone, is there to play by the rules. Some will use the rules to their advantage in varying degrees.

I've seen some crazy stuff but in competition (my kids used to play ball) you'll find that. In a casual game, hopefully, you'll not see that as often.

What do they say, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Competition and tournaments attract all kinds of people; if that's not your cup of tea then play with friends and Fly Casual.

@1stpost: You keep on adding things or ignoring things I posted. I didnt say the craft would be out of deployment order.

Then that's another thing to alert you that something's up.

*At best without the sheet and without being told what the ships are youll find out what they really are after turn zero. Techically speaking by this point you have no bussiness being at their side of the table when the movement dials are having their movemts selected. So your best bet before turn 1 after they have told you what ships they have is to look at their cards that are upside down 3+ feet away and thats if that person isnt covering a card or more with their hands, probably while leaning on the table with one or both hands, while looking tired, you know not suspicious.

*facedesk*

I understand your scenario just fine, and it's silly.

All pilot and upgrade cards are available to all players to reference at all times. When you're setting up, you look at what your opponent has and they look at what you've got. That's how this game works. If you can't see his cards you can go over there and look at them before the game. During the game you're fully within your rights to ask to see their cards. If your opponent is hiding their cards, obscuring their bases with tokens and refuses to let you see what they've got then you're going to call the TO on them.

Now back too the ship base itself going with the scenario IM using they will really have 2-3 RGIs the last one they put down is Fel. Because they lost their sheet, they told you they had 3-4 RGI before ships were even put on the table and you didnt get a clear look at the cards, It is reasonable to conclude their will be a good amount of people fooled by this tactic.

No, people will not be fooled because if the opponent is actively hiding his list and his baseplates and insisting you get on with the game just about anyone will smell a rat. Including an actual rat.

That, and even if, for the sake of argument, they did both assume a red interceptor is a Royal Guard and not have any suspicions of foul play whatsoever when their opponent physically hides their list like a dragon hoard and carefully positions tokens to obscure names assume that then those RGIs are still not defined. In case you've forgotten, Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax also use red interceptors. Even if this entire scenario wasn't comically improbable it would still be irrelevant to paint jobs.

@2ndpost: Your not actully DEFENDING a guy that just jumped in here, made false claims about me did you? So you were a hostile hmm...

Just stating a fact. You also may have missed that he was backing me up in my assertion that a proper miniatures game where you get to steal and vandalise other players' artwork sounds so... wrong, that I doubted it was true. I also read the thread he linked: the idea was discussed but contrary to your assertion not one member there backed up it being an official rule of the game.

So to make this clear you are a enemy YES? Since your good friends with people like MF, or VanorDM, people who have lied and trolled in the past, and the fact you defened people jumping in and attacking in my own topic out of the blue I would have to say YES.

@2nd and 3rd: What you pointed out is almost irrelevant, lots of people would be fooled at turn zero. IM even willing for study purposes to try the above or something similair. I bet I could fool close too 45%, maybe more, of players I use this tactic on.

@3rd: You ether didnt read it all the way too the 2nd page or your lying.

I find it hilarious that it's my modified and repainted B-wing that's used as an example! I've used it in a few tournies and I've had no complaints as of yet. It's rather been the opposite in the style of 'I want one of those!'

[...]

Back to my B-wing, according the RAW rules it is technically illegal for me to use it in a tournament [...] Of course, if someone were to call me out on that I would probably not be very happy with that person, [...]

Or they could say, hey that's illegal I want one too so it's fair. Yes that is a joke.

BTW Nice work.

Apparently disagreeing and providing proof why BKL is wrong... makes me an enemy.

So to make this clear you are a enemy YES? Since your good friends with people like MF, or VanorDM, people who have lied and trolled in the past, and the fact you defened people jumping in and attacking in my own topic out of the blue I would have to say YES.

Enemy of what? This is a forum, not an RTS. As for friends, I don't know anyone on this forum well enough personally to describe them as a friend.

I treat this forum as an area for discussion, not a political battleground. I do not agree or disagree with posts based on who posted them, I agree or disagree on the contents of those posts.

If someone says something I agree with then I agree with them on that matter. If someone says something I disagree with then I will disagree with them on that matter. Note the double tautology. I agree with and disagree with posts, not members. I am disagreeing with you here but if you say something I agree with elsewhere I will agree with it. On the flipside while VanorDM and I are in agreement on this matter of the TIE interceptors I spent the previous two pages arguing against him.

I bear you no ill will, I just think that your scenario of a player tricking other player by hiding all their cards and using a potentially misleading model is fundamentally unrealistic to such an extent that it does not warrant attention from the game rules, that, all things considered, your suggestion that people should be forced to repaint their miniatures every match to match card art is not sensible, and that even if that was a requirement it would not prevent your hypothetical scenario from occuring: see Howlswarm for counterexample.

As for "your own topic", this is Gibarian's topic, no?

@2nd and 3rd: What you pointed out is almost irrelevant, lots of people would be fooled at turn zero. IM even willing for study purposes to try the above or something similair. I bet I could fool close too 45%, maybe more, of players I use this tactic on.

It's completely relevant. You have a right to see your opponent's list before the game starts. If they actively prevent you from doing so and disguise their baseplates with shield tokens it's a red flag so big you could see it from space. Your entire scenario is based on the opponent obscuring or hiding every single ship identifier other than the model and then the opponent not responding in any way: this is not realistic.

As for attempting this, I wouldn't advise it. You'd get thrown out of the tournament and barred from future events when players repeatedly complain you're refusing to show them your list cards and actively disguising your baseplates. You'd alienate your casual friends also.

@3rd: You ether didnt read it all the way too the 2nd page or your lying.

It only had one page when I read it.

Because of the inflammatory content and abusive behavior evident in numerous posts in this thread, this topic has now been locked. Please continue beneficial discussion in other threads, and remember to be kind and courteous to all other users.

Thanks and keep playing!

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