Come on people, you shouldn't be so eager to assume someone is trying to do something malicious just by calling a TO over to clarify.

If you call a TO over to a minor model modification and the TO agrees with you there are only two possible outcomes: the model is replaced or the player is disqualified. If you're not after one of those two, why call the TO?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to play against against models that are accurate to the game, so your assumption that no one would ever have a reason to go after the first result is provably false. This game derives a lot of its appeal from the fact that it features ships that are recognizable from the films and EU. If you alter your ship such that it's no longer recognizable from the original source (which means changing the size or shape), than you are potentially lessening the enjoyment of the game for a lot of people (myself included). Another reason is that this is a game with pieces provided whose visual appearance function to aid players in distinguishing the pieces from a distance of 4+ feet (the length of the game board plus the height of the player) without having to strain themselves.

Yes you own the models and have every right to do whatever you want with them, but FFG owns the tournament rules, and when you play in a tournament, you are agreeing to play by FFG's rules or not play at all. And the rules are clear:

If you change the size or shape of your models, a TO has the right to tell you to use acceptable models. So either bring acceptable models in addition to your modified ones, or get your modified ones cleared with the TO first.

Honestly, if you get booted from a tournament because you didn't do either of those very simple things, you can't blame your opponent for getting DQ'd. You did it to yourself.

Nobody's saying the TO doesn't have the right to boot you.

I've never been to an event where FFG staff were present, but no one at the handful of tournaments I've run or attended has ever had an issue with customized ships. As a tournament organizer, I have absolutely no issue with it.

Locally/casually, even in tournaments you'll probably find that other players are interested in and appreciate conversions. In some cases it will just make them more eager to blast your prettified ships off the board faster.

I feel a Jabba the Hutt laugh is appropriate after blasting a pretty modded ship to dust....

Ho ho ho ho ha ha ha.

I don't think anyone's now arguing that unrecognisable ships should be disallowed.

This thread has only got this far because some have said they would call a TO for a broken ship or a rotated B-Wing.

A broken ship or rotated B-wing are still instantly recognisable as the ships they are.

And to counter your quote about models being unmodified I still quote

"play within the rules and not abuse them"

Complaining about a broken ship or a still recognisable ship is abusing the rules to get someone DQd.

There's no other reason to complain - except for stalling, which is also under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule.

I would guess that the rule is there for 2 reasons.

1 To ensure that players buy and use genuine FFG products and don't stick old models on bases which look naff and lessen their product.

2. To prevent modelling for advantage. Which could be done, but broken ships and rotated B-wings certainly are not.

I would also guess that the rule is NOT there to have players disqualified for petty reasons - which is why they have the unsportsmanlike behaviour rule.

Was anyone at Worlds?

Were rotated B-Wings allowed there?

That would give us FFGs official stance on rotated B-Wings right there.

It can't be for the 1st reason, that is already covered in the tournament rules further down:

I don't think anyone's now arguing that unrecognisable ships should be disallowed.

This thread has only got this far because some have said they would call a TO for a broken ship or a rotated B-Wing.

A broken ship or rotated B-wing are still instantly recognisable as the ships they are.

And to counter your quote about models being unmodified I still quote

"play within the rules and not abuse them"

Complaining about a broken ship or a still recognisable ship is abusing the rules to get someone DQd.

There's no other reason to complain - except for stalling, which is also under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule.

So is it okay to call a TO over to a game to rule on player's altered ships if they don't ask for that player to be DQ'd? Or does that still make someone a dbag?

Again, I'll ask.

WHY would you waste the TO and your opponent's time calling over a TO if you didn't have the intention of DQing them?

Stalling is the only other reason I can think of, which is also forbidden by the tournament rules..

There's nothing to be gained by wasting game time and the TOs time to call them over just to say "Is this OK?, no please don't DQ my opponent, I'm just asking"

Again, I'll ask.

WHY would you waste the TO and your opponent's time calling over a TO if you didn't have the intention of DQing them?

Stalling is the only other reason I can think of, which is also forbidden by the tournament rules..

There's nothing to be gained by wasting game time and the TOs time to call them over just to say "Is this OK?, no please don't DQ my opponent, I'm just asking"

Wow, you're just not listening, somebody might prefer playing with the models FFG makes versus something that an amateur made. I know you can't think of an answer to your own question, but you could listen the answer other people give.

And if a TO rules that your hacked up models aren't okay, you don't get DQ'd, you just switch to the legal models you brought knowing that edit:[intentionally] hacked up models are officially not allowed in tournaments. Why would you come to a tournament with hacked up models and not bring extras, knowing you might be asked by TO to not use them?

And if a TO rules that your hacked up models aren't okay, you don't get DQ'd, you just switch to the legal models you brought knowing that edit:[intentionally] hacked up models are officially not allowed in tournaments. Why would you come to a tournament with hacked up models and not bring extras, knowing you might be asked by TO to not use them?

Because the majority of people don't have doubles of every ship and for really minor things (horizontal B-wing and topgunless E-wing being the examples) you really wouldn't expect anyone to kick up a fuss unless they were after DQ advantage.

The two reasons to call over the DQ are to get the models swapped out for ones in the original shape (which could be repainted in My Little Pony livery and still be completely legal) or in hopes of getting the opponent into DQ trouble. You've got to weigh up the probability of the first versus the second. How many players are going to be so bothered by that horizontal B-wing that they'd ask for it to be swapped out for a vertical versus those who aren't really bothered and are just playing for the advantage?

I didn't say anything about amateur made models..

They are STILL the FFG models, they have been MINUTELY changed.

And there is also the rule about unsportsmanlike conduct.

I'll try a different approach then...

What ship could you mistake a rotated B-Wing or an A-Wing with a broken gun (the 2 examples so far in this thread I'm mainly arguing) for!?

What happens if your models got damaged on route to the tournament (that you may have travelled hundreds of miles to attend and booked a hotel)

In that circumstance, you would be quite happy if you got asked to replace them, didn't have spares and got DQd for??

You've just wasted a chunk of money, a weekend and maybe even took a day off work for?

If your not trying to DQ someone, you have no reason to call a TO for it.

Its cheap and it breaks the unsportsmanlike conduct rule.

There's something I wanted to bring up in regards to the rotated B-Wing, but sat back to see if anybody brought it up which nobody did.

The rotated B-Wing occupies a different amount of space than the standard vertical model. It is in fact extending beyond the base where it normally would.

In this game where you have miniatures moving very close together, who hasn't had plenty of collisions with their hands vs models as they try to move something along a maneuver template path? When you have a ship with an altered shape or orientation you now have a ship that can possibly adversely affect the micro-orientation of the ships on the field.

What if a player constantly has his angled B-Wing moving in to other ships "Oh, I have Advanced sensors so I can do an action first, now I move, oops my model touched yours, let me move it slightly back to the position it was in, oh look, it's now inside this firing arc, that's weird, oh well!"

To me this is my biggest problem with ship modifications in a tournament. It is altered from it's original shape / orientation in a way that was not intended by FFG when they had the mold printed. And minute changes can make big differences.

I have seen many players use laser guides to determine if a ship is in or out of a firing arc, I myself make use of a tool. And a slight change could push just that little bit of a base's corner into an arc, with a "Ooops, sorry I nudged it a little let me put it back where I thought it was" action.

I should say that ships with broken pieces would actually occupy less space, and ships are often mismolded or bent right out of a box, and that should be forgiven But I think it is a personal contradiction to say that "A is okay but B is not" if both scenarios violate the same rule, which is an alteration to the physical size or shape of a ship, then both scenarios should be equally reported, and again, up to the TO's discretion.

With that out of the way...

Yes, my intent in calling a TO over absolutely is to get your equipment scrutinized, and if you get disqualified then that is just fine with me. I would have to concede that there is really no reason for me to call a TO over if that is not a desired outcome.

However, I would absolutely not do this in the middle of a game, to me that is a very disingenuous act as I would offer my opponent the same respect that I expect. I would raise this concern before play began. (I have been at tournaments where suddenly, mid-game, people call a TO over for a perceived disqualifying violation in an attempt to win over their opponent, and I am not a fan of that behavior).

I know people are going to pass judgment on me and say that I'm a particular type of person. But I feel that if a person shows up to a tournament, flagrantly violating rules that I am obeying and that others are obeying, and is not prepared to have a backup option when they are called on that violation, then that person has already shown a lack of respect for others in the community and the tournament, and is no longer due kind consideration.

I am aware of what people think that makes me, but those that think that, I think cannot see both sides of an issue.

I came to a tournament to win. I have been in quite a few (besides just Xwing tournaments), and I have too often seen kindness treated as weakness and people lose because of it. I believe that if I am following the rules at a tournament, then others should as well, and people circumventing those rules, in any shape or form, are showing disrespect to the others around them that do. And that is a person that I do not think belongs in the tournament,

I will submit my complaint, I will not pursue a campaign against them, even if the rest of the tournament they continue to harass me because I believed that they were violating the rules and the TO said they did not.

Would you ban the player showing up with THIS Defender?

Once you start down that path of "micro movements" and arguing over moving that model an extra milimeter, you have stopped flying casual and started playing warhammer...

What if a player constantly has his angled B-Wing moving in to other ships "Oh, I have Advanced sensors so I can do an action first, now I move, oops my model touched yours, let me move it slightly back to the position it was in, oh look, it's now inside this firing arc, that's weird, oh well!"

The rules state that only base collisions count. With model collisions you're techically meant to either adjust the model's peg height so that it doesn't collide or remove it entirely until the collision situation is resolved.

There's something I wanted to bring up in regards to the rotated B-Wing, but sat back to see if anybody brought it up which nobody did.

The rotated B-Wing occupies a different amount of space than the standard vertical model. It is in fact extending beyond the base where it normally would.

In this game where you have miniatures moving very close together, who hasn't had plenty of collisions with their hands vs models as they try to move something along a maneuver template path? When you have a ship with an altered shape or orientation you now have a ship that can possibly adversely affect the micro-orientation of the ships on the field.

What if a player constantly has his angled B-Wing moving in to other ships "Oh, I have Advanced sensors so I can do an action first, now I move, oops my model touched yours, let me move it slightly back to the position it was in, oh look, it's now inside this firing arc, that's weird, oh well!"

To me this is my biggest problem with ship modifications in a tournament. It is altered from it's original shape / orientation in a way that was not intended by FFG when they had the mold printed. And minute changes can make big differences.

While there is some merit to what you are saying, if I were in the mind to 'accidentally' nudge the opposing sides' models I would not use a sideways mounted B-wing. In fact I think a Lambda shuttle with it's wings folded down would probably be one of the best models for the job.

Or a decimator, or YT-1300, or YT-2400, or pretty much every ship in the game bar the b-wing, slave 1, and the tie fighter as most of them overhang their base a bit. I particularly enjoy a good falcon/interceptor coming together - it can take days to untangle them.

Non argument that one.

That and FFG explicitly allows magnet mounting which means you can orient a ship relative to its base however you like.

Trying to stop people from using models that they have probably put a lot of time and effort into is a d**k move.

Who made you the thought police? If someone comes to the game and plops down something that looks like a YT-2400 then I have every right to ask the TO about it. If you don't like it, then I suggest you stay home where you don't have to put up with other peoples opinions. You do not get to decide why I may or may not find something acceptable. Offensive is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Do you start calling people names if they ask the TO over to to make a ruling when you've already stated your opinion on how the rule should be interpreted as well?

I mean that has to be one of the single most egotistical things I've seen in some time. Calling someone a name simply because they have a different opinion than you.

Modified components are not legal without TO approval. It is not as if they are legal until the TO says otherwise.

The rules don't actually say the TO has to approve all modifications, only that the TO has the final say.

So while yes, if someone had a modified ship they should be clearing it first, the rules don't actually say you have to do so. If someone were to cut the top gun off a E-Wing for example, I could see them think there's no reason to bother the TO with it, after all who's going to complain about it?

I am saying that if you try to stop someone from using a model that isn't offensive then you are being a di*k. If you think that calling a spade a spade is egotistical, then I will let you continue to feel that way. Thought police indeed, pot.

And before you come back with 'anything can be offensive' just stop. You know full well what constitutes offensive in a public family setting, just like the rest of us, and the modification of a ship into a slightly different looking ship isn't it.

If you really think that the intent of the rule is to stop any and all ship mods then we can agree to disagree.

During tournament play, each player is required to use components included

in official X-Wing products with the exception of third party maneuver

templates, tokens, and range rulers,

Ship, base, and card proxies are not allowed.

So the reasons must either be to prevent modelling for advantage, which could be used to make it more difficult for the opponent to identify your ships, or to preserve the player experience of playing with Star Wars IP models against other Star Wars IP models, versus having to play against someone's custom BS Galactica ships in a tournament or whatever.

I suspect it is for both reasons. Even if you can't outright trick an opponent by changing your models, having to look at the bases all the time to keep things straight will certainly increase mental strain, which is a tangible advantage.

"Preserve the player experience of playing with Star Wars IP models"? Surely you mean "making sure people have bought FFG models"? This is not about preserving player experience, it is about money. Now, it is all fair expecting players to use official models in an official tournament. FFG is a business and they are out to make money. Player experience mainly requires ships are identifiable. Using an old micromachines tie fighter isn't going to massively affect player experience, for example, but it does affect FFG's bottom line. Possibly a bad example, because it probably would not be worth the player's bother either, with the time and effort needed to get such a model to work in the game (you would need a base and base card), but as an example.

I am going to admit insisting that people don't use card proxies for upgrades seems a bit harsh to me... as you have at least one copy of the original card I don't see why I should be required to have bought multiple ships I only want one of just to have that card. Bases and ship cards are different, as you get all you need with each ship, but some upgrades only come in some ships and you may never want more of that ship. I think it is fair to expect the player has bought the card at least once, certainly, but more than that seems harsh to me. Of course they are FFG's rules to make.

On the actual topic: It is going to be a matter of what the TO says, and they always have a right to refuse you... heck they can refuse you even if you follow the official FFG rules. However, I would expect that as long as the conversions did not give any advantage in game, they were clearly built on a basis of an original FFG model, and they couldn't be confused with another ship any reasonable TO is probably going to be fine with it. As a player I certainly would be fine with it. Now, I wouldn't recommend corner cases (the aforementioned closed s-foil x wing, for example), as there might be an argument they could be confused (even if I personally think that would make it easier to diferentiate from the other x wings you might have on the table, which is a much more likely confusion in my mind). If a TO wasn't willing to accept a reasonable conversion, or a player kicked up a fuss over it, and couldn't give more of a reason than "the rules say so", then I think you are actually within your rights to think "well, this atmosphere isn't very welcoming and understanding" (polite code for "jerk"), but obviously you will have to accept their ruling. Yes, rules are there for a reason, but blindly sticking to rules is not something reasonable people do. They realise they are there as a guideline for a reason, and that some are more immportant than others. Tournament rules in games are there to make sure someone doesn't get unfair advantage, so that is what is important in enforcing them.

from what i understand when this was brought up a couple years ago that the model can be modded only as long as it doesn't change the overall look that would confuse people to what it actually is; such as it looking like a completely different ship

paint jobs are fine. The rule only applies to the heavily creative modder's out there that make drastic changes

Ok how about this scenario:

You've been in X tournament for seven hours now, you're in the middle of the game and you forget that the lone Z-95 that you've now allowed to flank you, because who cares about a lone Z, is actually Wedge Antilles in an X-wing who's wings were modded to be closed, and it costs you the game? Yes, it is your fault for forgetting that he was who they said he was, but at the same time I would say this is why the rules are as they stand, so my ships are easily identified by their silhouette and we can play to the best of our abilities. Does that make conversions bad? Not by any means, but in a tournament setting after several hours of play its easy to overlook small details and the less of those at the table the better for both players.

Now this is just silly.

If you actually can't instantly tell that this:

and this:

are not the same ship then you have severe eyesight issues to the extent that I doubt it would be possible for you to play the game. If you can see the difference between a hit and a crit you can see the difference between a Z-95 and an X-wing. Their very shape is different. Chop the wings off all your X-wings and Z-95s and you still won't mix them up.

Plus everyone looks at bases. Otherwise how would you manage to play a game that actually does have two of the same ship? In a TIE swarm you've got up to eight (usually seven) identical ships. If you'd make the mistake above keeping track of Howlrunner must be impossible for you.

Point is, that it's possible to modify something to the point that it could easily be confused for something else.

In terms of X-wing minis, no, it really isn't. Not without your opponent becoming aware of it the second they see the models.

And if your opponent really does mix it up, then they're far, far more likely to point out you've got the wrong mini on the wrong base at the start of the game because the suggestion that people don't read baseplates is laughable. It's suggesting that people are incapable of playing a game where there are multiple copies of the same ship around. It's hard not to read the baseplates.

One poster gave the example of mixing up a Tala with Wedge when someone somehow made the Tala model indistinguishable from an X-wing and the opponent somehow managed not to pick up on it for a whole game. Even if they did somehow they're not going to miss the massive orange number 9 on its base, the fact that it activates first for the whole game and that it's got 3/3/2/2 Wedge Antilles written on its base in high constrast.

My scenario so far has been the most likely to happen. Using a RGI mini to represent FEL or anyother named 181st OR using a 181st Interceptor to represent ALPHAS, AVENGERS, or RGI. Non-IMP player sees the minis with special paint jobs, turns and looks at IMP player and asks "Standard RGI?" IMP player just nods while not directly looking. Player asking the question will ether roll with the answer they got or look closer at the minis.

Now no matter the scenario the victom will most the time know something is wrong with that game piece during deploy or first turn. It all depends on the victimes own pilot skill levels of ships.

After all of that it comes down to the judge. The victim will call them over and tell them what just happend. The IMP can roll with how they responded too the victoms question, in a deceptive way of course. They will say, they were thinking to themselves and didnt even know the victim & they are using a RGI to rep FEL because they bought the RGI upgrade for him, OR they didnt understand the question, they are using a RGI mini to rep FEL or other high PS 181st pilot because they bought the RGI upgrade.

They will ether let them keep the mini or replace it. Etherway if it got to this point damage has been done to the victim.

Why are you asking about your opponents models? Are they offensive in nature? Or are you looking for an free win?

Derpfender.

Although let's be honest, who wouldn't want to play against three Derpfenders?

All hail the Princess of Muffins! What no muffins? I JUST DONT KNOW WHAT WENT WRONG!!!

Had a guy at todays tourney flying a 4 RGP list, each had VI and Targeting Computer.. he used 2 RGP ships from imp aces, and the 2 blood stripe ships from the I'mp aces.. and because we all knew what he was flying, NO ONE worried about it. Also the TO told me when I told him I had a magnetized Firespray with an alternate paint job, that it didn't matter as long as I hadnt changed the base, he also said anyone that did as what has been discussed here... hed give them a warning.. he also really liked my repaint.. lol.. its in the Firespray thead in the repaints subforum...

His thoughts on the subject were that the rules really pertain to the base, as repaints and mods are ok, and that's the way he runs tourneis.. so.. loolks like I won't be running into... "that guy" at any of my tournies... lol.. we had a great day, lots of fun, and my 3 Firespray bounty hunter list came in 4th.. got me 5 cloak tokens.. lol

The easy solution is to have a non-modified replacement for every ship you've modified. I love doing uglies and conversions, but always ask my opponent if they have any issues with them (so far no one ever has). But if they do, I have original ships to use on hand.

The easy solution is to have a non-modified replacement for every ship you've modified. I love doing uglies and conversions, but always ask my opponent if they have any issues with them (so far no one ever has). But if they do, I have original ships to use on hand.

I think they should change the rules so if a person has to get rid of a custom but they dont have a replacement they just lose that piece for the whole event instead of auto losing. Even with the missing piece they could still win.

My scenario so far has been the most likely to happen. Using a RGI mini to represent FEL or anyother named 181st OR using a 181st Interceptor to represent ALPHAS, AVENGERS, or RGI. Non-IMP player sees the minis with special paint jobs, turns and looks at IMP player and asks "Standard RGI?" IMP player just nods while not directly looking. Player asking the question will ether roll with the answer they got or look closer at the minis.

It's not likely at all. Even if you do assume that interceptor paint jobs match their cards (they don't necessarily) a red could be RGP, Carnor or Kir. A 181st could be Saber, Fel, Phennir, Cowall, Lorrir or even Wrath. Generics could be anything. They'll then notice the activation order is off, or the giant pilot skill letter on the base doesn't match up with what they think it is. Everyone looks at the bases at some point. You can also see their cards opposite from you at a glance. I find it hard to believe that you don't look at your opponent's squad to see what pilots and upgrades they've got before the game.

If you somehow manage to lose from deciding that that interceptor had to be an Alpha because there was no red on it and managed to go the whole game without bothering to glance at the base then you deserve to lose.

Plus the example doesn't work anyway because you can repaint ships however you like. All three official interceptor repaints are legal for any TIE interceptor as are all the infinite possible unofficial repaints. There's nothing deceptive about running Fel in a red interceptor.