The only reason for a TO to disallow a conversation is if the deem if offensive or not apparent as what is meant to represent.

That said TOs should not wait to rule on a ship until someone brings up the issue. If they see a ship they view as problematic they should inform the owner as such and look towards getting a replacement. Just like a TO shouldn't be waiting to intercede on other rules issues he observes.

Players looking to use a converted ship should have the courtesy to clear it with the TO during registration. It is very discourteous and presumptuous to assume a clearly written rule isn't going to be applied to you.

If a model isn't recognizable as what you are playing it as, or is possibly confused with another ship you should expect TOs to enforce the conversation policy.

I haven't seen any conversions disallowed but that may very well be because the moddling rules are so strict in appearance that you don't see much beyond slight cosmetic changes that don't change the recognition of what the model is.

In Warhammer there is a concept known as 'modelling to your advantage'. This refers to a model that has been built in such a way that it can exploit rules. A good example would be miniatures that are normally quite tall but has been rebuilt in a squatting or even prone position so its profile is smaller and can easier hide in cover. This is quite frankly not a problem in X-wing with the possible exception of models being built to mimic already existing models. I feel it is unlikely that such a situation would cause much confusion, but then again I have a long background in Warhammer, if I can keep track of hundreds of models, 2-8 is a piece of cake.

On that note: 40k once had the "count's as" rule (think it was 4th edition?) wich pretty much let you convert what you wanted aslong as you informed your opponent what it was beforehand.

That has pretty much been an unofficial rule since the beginning. After all, many models didnt always exist so the only way to have them was to build them yourself. A bit off topic however.

Warhammer is also known for having the worst tournament rules/rules in general.

Warhammer is also known for having the worst tournament rules/rules in general.

There is some truth to that. When I see people complaining about rules, overpowered combos, fixes to ships and whatnot, I always take the time to reflect that no matter how 'bad' something appears to be in X-wing, in comparison to Warhammer, it's freaking paradise. I have seen the darkness of a wargame gone wrong, nothing can ever compare.

How often do you actually look at the base of a ship when playing?

Constantly. How else do you know which one is Howlrunner?

She's usually the one sitting with her dial off to the side of the board on her pilot card.

i have one example, that i've fully supported to this day. it wasnt a modified ship, though i have encountered those. at the table next time mine at regionals last year, frequent forum poster Instantaequitas was playing another guy running b wings.

this guy had advanced sensors, and one turn, flipped his dial, and then said "advanced sensors" outloud, to proclaim his intention to take an action before moving.

Instantaequitas immediately stopped him, reminding him that he's only allowed to use advanced sensors before you reveal a dial.

the dude lost it. i thought there was gonna be a fight. Instant kept his cool, and said "thats the rules man" while angry guy turned to me to ask if that was cool

i said that any other day, nah, take your action then move, but he paid to be here. he was in the right to call you on the breach of ettiquette.

the guy sat down, defeated, and proceeded to lose the match.

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

He's not known for his etiquette though is he? In fact, I hear he's quite the bad loser.

Ok how about this scenario:

You've been in X tournament for seven hours now, you're in the middle of the game and you forget that the lone Z-95 that you've now allowed to flank you, because who cares about a lone Z, is actually Wedge Antilles in an X-wing who's wings were modded to be closed, and it costs you the game? Yes, it is your fault for forgetting that he was who they said he was, but at the same time I would say this is why the rules are as they stand, so my ships are easily identified by their silhouette and we can play to the best of our abilities. Does that make conversions bad? Not by any means, but in a tournament setting after several hours of play its easy to overlook small details and the less of those at the table the better for both players.

Now this is just silly.

If you actually can't instantly tell that this:

and this:

are not the same ship then you have severe eyesight issues to the extent that I doubt it would be possible for you to play the game. If you can see the difference between a hit and a crit you can see the difference between a Z-95 and an X-wing. Their very shape is different. Chop the wings off all your X-wings and Z-95s and you still won't mix them up.

Plus everyone looks at bases. Otherwise how would you manage to play a game that actually does have two of the same ship? In a TIE swarm you've got up to eight (usually seven) identical ships. If you'd make the mistake above keeping track of Howlrunner must be impossible for you.

Point is, that it's possible to modify something to the point that it could easily be confused for something else.

In terms of X-wing minis, no, it really isn't. Not without your opponent becoming aware of it the second they see the models.

And if your opponent really does mix it up, then they're far, far more likely to point out you've got the wrong mini on the wrong base at the start of the game because the suggestion that people don't read baseplates is laughable. It's suggesting that people are incapable of playing a game where there are multiple copies of the same ship around. It's hard not to read the baseplates.

One poster gave the example of mixing up a Tala with Wedge when someone somehow made the Tala model indistinguishable from an X-wing and the opponent somehow managed not to pick up on it for a whole game. Even if they did somehow they're not going to miss the massive orange number 9 on its base, the fact that it activates first for the whole game and that it's got 3/3/2/2 Wedge Antilles written on its base in high constrast.

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

He's not known for his etiquette though is he? In fact, I hear he's quite the bad loser.

the problem with c3po is that in no time someone decides to switch him off (may even be himself)

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

He's not known for his etiquette though is he? In fact, I hear he's quite the bad loser.

the problem with c3po is that in no time someone decides to switch him off (may even be himself)

How about Darth Vader?

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

He's not known for his etiquette though is he? In fact, I hear he's quite the bad loser.

the problem with c3po is that in no time someone decides to switch him off (may even be himself)

How about Darth Vader?

If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny

Maybe we need a sub-forum for X-Wing etiquette discussions. C3-P0 can be moderator.

better Chewie, he is the ideal moderator when he calms things down they stay down ... permanently.

He's not known for his etiquette though is he? In fact, I hear he's quite the bad loser.

the problem with c3po is that in no time someone decides to switch him off (may even be himself)

How about Darth Vader?

If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny

Obi wan Kenobi: I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices cried out and were suddenly silenced. I fear the thread has been locked.

Wait how did we end up from discussions about converted ships being legal into wondering wich star wars character would be the best admin?

Man, I love these forums!

How about IG-88? He was able to control the Emperor (until he got bored), I'm sure he could handle a bunch of old Star Wars nerds.

In terms of X-wing minis, no, it really isn't. Not without your opponent becoming aware of it the second they see the models.

It would be fairly easy actually to modify a Tie Interceptor to look like a Tie Fighter or visa versa for example. It would also be possible to modify a X-Wing to look like a Z-95.

The rules disallow any sort of modification of the shape of the model, but as a TO I'd be fine with it within reason. But if someone brings a Tie Fighter that looks a lot like a Interceptor or a X that looks a lot like a Z-95... I'd not let them use it.

Because even if there's only a small chance of confusion, it's too much chance considering what the rules state.

New to the forums and this topic is one of the first things that caught my eye as I look at getting into this game and/or Armada and wanted to chime in as a "newb."

The big concern I'd have is as others point out trying to "trick" me with a customization. Like the ones with the astromech where there isn't. No big deal unless you're trying to play the one with the gun having an astromech and vice versa. As long as I can look at the model and "know" what it is I'd not be "that guy." As soon as you start trying to "put one over on me" I'd likely talk to the event runner.

It would be fairly easy actually to modify a Tie Interceptor to look like a Tie Fighter or visa versa for example. It would also be possible to modify a X-Wing to look like a Z-95.

I disagree, you'd have to replace most of the model, and it'd still not be easily confused with an FFG TIE fighter unless you used TIE parts. Then it would be mostly TIE fighter. It wouldn't be a conversion any more, it'd be outright the wrong model. All that'd be left of your TIE interceptor is the cockpit. As for the X-wing, you could make a Z-95 from an X-wing but it would look fundamentally different to an actual FFG Z-95 mini. It'd pass as a Z-95 but not as an FFG Z-95.

This "tricked by a customisation" argument is silly. Even if you make a ship look like another ship it still won't be confused with the geniune article. And even if, for the sake of argument, you did change an X-wing to look completely like a Z-95 then your opponent could tell from the baseplate that it was the wrong ship. And all ships have their statlines and names printed on their bases, everyone looks at these bases whether they realise it or not. Otherwise you'd get very confused whenever a player fielded two of the same ship.

If someone stuck the same ship model on every baseplate you'd still be able to tell what every ship is. If you disagree I refer you to the TIE swarm.

I challenge anyone to post a conversion that could be mistaken for another ship's offical miniature.

Like the ones with the astromech where there isn't.

Whether a ship can take an upgrade or not is defined by its upgrade bar (which every player can see in front of them), not by what's on the model. The legality of lists are also checked by the TO beforehand. It's not possible to stick an astromech dome to say, a Z-95, and equip an astromech to it because when the TO checks the lists he'll see an astromech equipped to a Z-95.

If a person is smart enough to play the game, then it is not reasonably possibly for them to somehow be fooled by a conversion. The only exception that I can dream up is a blind player who makes game decisions based only on touch.

No matter what miniatures game you play, when the game is brought to a tournament, the "A-hole" in certain people comes out.

Using a rule to take unnecessary advantage of a situation is not appropriate. Using a rule to enforce fairness is appropriate.

What's the difference? "I'll know it when I see it."

I disagree, you'd have to replace most of the model, and it'd still not be easily confused with an FFG TIE fighter unless you used TIE parts.

Well considering some of the things I've seen, you're wrong. It not even that hard considering that 90% of the model is already the same as a tie fighter. The panels are the only different in both cases.

If you were to take the wings off a tie fighter and interceptor then swap them... You could still call them a fighter and interceptor, even though they look like the other ship. Yet this would be in all ways as legal or illegal as closing the S-Foils on a X-Wing or removing the top gun on a E-Wing.

But again I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. The rules are quite simple, it's not like anyone has the 'right' to modify their ships in the first place. The question is intent and how much a TO is willing to allow. It's not even a question of how confusing it is, it's mostly a question of the intent.

Unless you're honestly going to tell me that you'd be ok with someone swapping the wings on a Tie Fighter and Interceptor and using them for a match...

The rules are quite simple, it's not like anyone has the 'right' to modify their ships in the first place.

Well, they do. They paid their $15 or $30, they can do what they want with the hunk of plastic they bought. But that doesn't automatically translate to the right to fly it in a tournament.

Seems to me the answer is simple, being a modder and played magic TCG enough. You want to play in tourney with mods, you take copies of your mods. If the TO says it's fine, then you have primary green light, if your opponent decides to call you on it, say Fine. Proceed to waste 60 seconds of his time by swapping modded ship for unmodded ship. In terms of broken stuff (I understand things happen, and replacements aren't always there. but think of it like the rebels, If they didn't have an X-wing they threw what they could in it's place till the X-wing could be back up and running. "CMA" or Cover My Ass seems like it would work best to avoid all the people and show you can truly "Fly Casual" and when it comes down to it it shows your a good sport versus someone who doesn't know the meaning. TO's tend to notice this.

If you were to take the wings off a tie fighter and interceptor then swap them...

That'd be completely pointless. You've taken a TIE fighter and a TIE interceptor and made a TIE interceptor and a TIE fighter. You've also, as I said, replaced most of the model. You might as well take your Carnor Jax and Dark Curse and stick their models into each other's bases. And that still wouldn't trick any player with eyesight good enough to tell hits and crits apart because the identity of a ship is printed on its base and everyone looks at the bases. You wouldn't be able to follow the game if you didn't.

But again I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point.

I'm arguing the point because the very idea of a "trick conversion" is ludicrous, and thus every time someone suggests it I will rebut them.

Unless you're honestly going to tell me that you'd be ok with someone swapping the wings on a Tie Fighter and Interceptor and using them for a match...

Would I be okay with it? No, of course I wouldn't be okay with what's effectively sticking the models on the wrong bases. But I'm also not going to suddenly assume Soontir Fel is an Academy Pilot for the entire game because someone stuck a TIE fighter mini into his base.

There isn't a single situation outside of huge ships where you can tell what pilot a ship is just by looking at the model, so to suggest that having the wrong model would make the opponent mistake it for another ship is beyond laughable.

As per the tournament rules, if you modify the size and/or shape of your model, there is a chance that you may be asked by the TO to use an unaltered model instead. This does not include changing the orientation, a cube is still a cube no matter how you turn it. You won't be disqualified for using an altered model, but you may be unable to continue playing if you can't provide the correct model for your ship that is the same size and shape as the official model. So if you're going to bring an altered model to a tournament, just make sure you bring an unaltered one too just in case.

This seems very simple to me, I don't understand why so much vitriol.

Wait, people are offended because their opponent tattled on them to the TO instead submitting themself to being told "get bent"? Some people don't deal with confrontation well, often times because of anxiety disorders, such as for example, PTSD, Social Anxiety Disorder, or phobias. Or maybe they just don't want to bother with someone telling them to "get bent" and would rather have the TO deal with it. I agree that it's more practical to try to resolve the issue with the opponent first, but it's every player's right to have a TO resolve an issue, and shouldn't have to submit a mental health history or have their character called into question for doing so.

If anything, I question the character of someone who enters a tournament, breaks the rules, and isn't willing to take responsibility for their own actions when they get called on it. A lot of people might disagree with the tournament rule in question, but there are good reasons for its existence, and it's not a difficult rule to follow. Other games might call themselves a hobby first, but X-Wing is a game first, and I know that because whenever I play I see people playing and having a ton of fun with great looking ships that have never been touched by a hobbyer's knife paint or glue.