No, but they might argue they should be allowed a re-do an a mistake. Or move all their PS2 ships at once, then assign their actions.

Because someone has a broken gun on their X-wing?

If they're going to try and pull something like that they'll do it anyway, they're not going to suddenly go from perfect player to insisting on takebacks because they saw a modded E-wing.

That may be the case, but they'll have a firmer basis for their argument since the TO has bent one rule already.

And let's not narrow this argument down to a matter of a broken gun. The mod issue is a lot more than that.

Ad hominem

Straw man

Gish gallop

Argumentum ad populum

Appeal to motive

False analogy

Proof by assertion

This thread is delivering!

No, but they might argue they should be allowed a re-do an a mistake. Or move all their PS2 ships at once, then assign their actions.

Do you see how silly that is?

Look, all I said so many pages ago was that if a TO said no to a modified ship, they're not a jerk for doing so, and shouldn't be called one. FFG has published rules that are readily available, and you shouldn't show up to a tournament expecting the TO to bend them, and you shouldn't get upset if they don't. That's it. Everything else has been a sort of Orobourous.

Welcome to the internet.

And with regards to "break one, break another" then once again, one is gaining mechanical advantage in the game. The other isn't. Therefore one has competitive effect and the other one doesn't. Therefore one has an effect on the game, and the other doesn't. Never mind that you still haven't demonstrated any causal link between a ship mod and cheating. If the above HYPOTHETICAL scenario ocurred then the TO can simply point to the prior sentence in the rules and say "my decision is final". The rules back him up.

Look, all I said so many pages ago was that if a TO said no to a modified ship, they're not a jerk for doing so, and shouldn't be called one. FFG has published rules that are readily available, and you shouldn't show up to a tournament expecting the TO to bend them, and you shouldn't get upset if they don't. That's it. Everything else has been a sort of Orobourous.

It's more you've been repeatedly reiterating your TO point when the discussion has mostly moved on, much to the confusion of everyone else who is talking about players raising disputes over minor modification and why they'd do that.

No, but they might argue they should be allowed a re-do an a mistake. Or move all their PS2 ships at once, then assign their actions.

I agree. It will be anarchy. First people are playing with broken laser guns on their ships, then they are smuggling cocaine and overthrowing governments.

Do you see how silly that is?

Arson, murder and painting minatures. Where will it all end?

I think that rules - in any game - are there to simply facilitate a fair process. I think that conflating a 'fair game' and ship mods is a wrong move. I think that the modifications rule probably stems from a licensing agreement on FFG's part that talks about how the 'star wars brand' is represented officially, and that's why the TO has such leeway. 'Oficially' you can't have anything but unmodified models, but the reality is a very different beast. The TO doesn't get to decide that a ship that flew off the board isn't destroyed for example, he gets to decide what is an 'appropriate mod'. As long as the base and template haven't been modded it's at the TO's discretion. I think that 'discretion' gives A LOT of leeway. I think they give the TO that leeway *exactly* because they know that people painting and modding their ships is a natural and cool part of a miniature game. Therefore the rule stops the painting of c**k and balls on a Falcon (only at tourneys, knock yourself out at home), while allowing for virtually anything that isn't offensive for a family type setting.

To the point of trying to use said rule to DQ opponents, It has nothing to do with a fair game as long as the base and template weren't modded. Since a modded ship has nothing to do with a fair game, I think trying to use that rule for a DQ is despicable. You're trying to cheat for a win on a technicality that has *zero* game effect. Shame on you.

I go to many tournaments and I play to win at them all. I have offended many militant casuals by demanding fair play by the rules. Playing by the rules is VERY important to me, because without rules, there is no game. However, a rule that is simply a cosmetic guideline that is probably the result of a corporate agreement that I had no part in whatsoever, and has no effect on the game is at best optional and at worst needless. You can totally play to win without being a d**k.

I would even go so far to say that if there is nothing actually offensive about the model or its modification, then it's incredibly bad manners to even bring it up.

since the TO has bent one rule already.

But the TO didn't bend any rules. The TO has the authority to say if a mod is allowed or not, so they can quite literally not bend the rules in this case, because the rules state that the TO gets to decide what or isn't allowed.

Arson, murder and painting minatures. Where will it all end?

Dogs and cats living together... that's where it ends.

Since a modded ship has nothing to do with a fair game, I think trying to use that rule for a DQ is despicable.

That's not completely true. If someone mod's their X-Wing so it looks like a Z-95, and mixes 1 or 2 in with Z-95's hoping the other guy will lose track of which is the X and which is the Z then it does have an effect on the game.

Or if you make Tie Fighters look like Tie Interceptors, or Interceptors like Tie Defenders, or a YT-1330 like a 2400. Or makes a Slave 1 look like something that isn't even really a SW ship...

There is a point where changes to the model could be used to gain an advantage in the game. That is no doubt part of the purpose behind the rule.

see that's all you got from anything I said..

Another inference.

I chose to highlight what I felt was best representative of your discussion. It is not all I got from it.

This makes you look like you dont get the point, or are focusing on something that is a non issue.. if you choose to take whatni say personally, that is on you. I have stated that my comments are a generalization .. basically talking about 'that guy' if you choose to pick up that torch.. it is all on you.. but it does speak volumes about you... and who you are.. regardless of your comments about not knowing you..

It's also hard to discuss something with someone who refuses to comment on the concepts posed or discussed.. giving impressions of ignoring it altogether....

Take what inference you want.. you have shown in this your opinions and who you are.. and the "relative" points ypu chose to pick out... are only trying to show me as the bad guy here, when clearly everyone knows who is... "That Guy" who chooses to be difficult is...

[shrugs] go ahead.. pick out the "relative" point in this and whine some more.. lol if the heat In the kitchen is too much for you...

Since a modded ship has nothing to do with a fair game, I think trying to use that rule for a DQ is despicable.

That's not completely true. If someone mod's their X-Wing so it looks like a Z-95, and mixes 1 or 2 in with Z-95's hoping the other guy will lose track of which is the X and which is the Z then it does have an effect on the game.

Or if you make Tie Fighters look like Tie Interceptors, or Interceptors like Tie Defenders, or a YT-1330 like a 2400. Or makes a Slave 1 look like something that isn't even really a SW ship...

There is a point where changes to the model could be used to gain an advantage in the game. That is no doubt part of the purpose behind the rule.

And that would be like just putting a Z-95 on an x-wing base. Not allowed. Why would a mod rule be necessary? I mean, I get what you are saying, I just see it as a red herring.

It's all about the base.

It's all about the base.

No treble!

"The size and shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way."

Turning something sideways is not altering its size or shape, so there are no grounds to call a TO for a sideways B-wing. If an opponent calls the TO for this, request a few extra minutes after the time limit to cover for their possible stall attempt.

And that would be like just putting a Z-95 on an x-wing base.

I don't follow. X-wings and Z-95s use the same bases, the small ones.

Turning something sideways is not altering its size or shape

The cockpit gets cut off and stuck on at a different angle, so it is a minor shape change. Much like moving the top gun back/to the bottom/removing it entirely from the E-wing.

That's not completely true. If someone mod's their X-Wing so it looks like a Z-95, and mixes 1 or 2 in with Z-95's hoping the other guy will lose track of which is the X and which is the Z then it does have an effect on the game.

Has anyone ever done that and would anyone ever fall for that? The identity of a ship is printed on the baseplate. A player is much more likely to mix up two X-wings than a heavily modified X-wing and a Z-95. They'd probably be more alert because the modded "Z-wing" would stand out. A lot. I challenge anyone to take an X-wing model and make it close enough to a Z-95 model that you could reasonably mix them up.

That's not saying people should make their Xs look like Zs, just that I can't actually see an advantage in doing so.

Ok how about this scenario:

You've been in X tournament for seven hours now, you're in the middle of the game and you forget that the lone Z-95 that you've now allowed to flank you, because who cares about a lone Z, is actually Wedge Antilles in an X-wing who's wings were modded to be closed, and it costs you the game? Yes, it is your fault for forgetting that he was who they said he was, but at the same time I would say this is why the rules are as they stand, so my ships are easily identified by their silhouette and we can play to the best of our abilities. Does that make conversions bad? Not by any means, but in a tournament setting after several hours of play its easy to overlook small details and the less of those at the table the better for both players.

Ok how about this scenario:

You've been in X tournament for seven hours now, you're in the middle of the game and you forget that the lone Z-95 that you've now allowed to flank you, because who cares about a lone Z, is actually Wedge Antilles in an X-wing who's wings were modded to be closed, and it costs you the game? Yes, it is your fault for forgetting that he was who they said he was, but at the same time I would say this is why the rules are as they stand, so my ships are easily identified by their silhouette and we can play to the best of our abilities. Does that make conversions bad? Not by any means, but in a tournament setting after several hours of play its easy to overlook small details and the less of those at the table the better for both players.

Well, if I failed to see those 2 guns stacked on the wing tips.. then yes I'm a boob and deserved to die.. lol.. I like your example, but if we cant discern what ship is what from that minor (in my view) then maybe we should reevaluate our knowlegde of this thing we call fandom.. lol

Also.. remember to ask what ship is what in the beginning, honestly I'd love to see a closed wing X wing mod.. it looks really cool

And that would be like just putting a Z-95 on an x-wing base.

No it's not. It's still an X-Wing, just one that's been modified to look a lot like a Z-95.

Well, if I failed to see those 2 guns stacked on the wing tips..

And if 1 gun on each wing has been removed?

Point is, that it's possible to modify something to the point that it could easily be confused for something else. Just because the base says X-Wing on it, doesn't mean people won't get confused. How often do you actually look at the base of a ship when playing?

I rarely do, because I can tell a Defender from a Phantom from a Interceptor quite easily by looking at the model.

But when someone change the model to the point that it's not quite so easy, like putting extra wings on a Tie Fighter so it looks like a Tie Interceptor... Then you have something that can affect the outcome of the game.

So it is not as simple as "mods are purely visual and have no effect on the game itself."

How often do you actually look at the base of a ship when playing?

Constantly. How else do you know which one is Howlrunner?

In Warhammer there is a concept known as 'modelling to your advantage'. This refers to a model that has been built in such a way that it can exploit rules. A good example would be miniatures that are normally quite tall but has been rebuilt in a squatting or even prone position so its profile is smaller and can easier hide in cover. This is quite frankly not a problem in X-wing with the possible exception of models being built to mimic already existing models. I feel it is unlikely that such a situation would cause much confusion, but then again I have a long background in Warhammer, if I can keep track of hundreds of models, 2-8 is a piece of cake.

In Warhammer there is a concept known as 'modelling to your advantage'. This refers to a model that has been built in such a way that it can exploit rules. A good example would be miniatures that are normally quite tall but has been rebuilt in a squatting or even prone position so its profile is smaller and can easier hide in cover. This is quite frankly not a problem in X-wing with the possible exception of models being built to mimic already existing models. I feel it is unlikely that such a situation would cause much confusion, but then again I have a long background in Warhammer, if I can keep track of hundreds of models, 2-8 is a piece of cake.

On that note: 40k once had the "count's as" rule (think it was 4th edition?) wich pretty much let you convert what you wanted aslong as you informed your opponent what it was beforehand.

And that would be like just putting a Z-95 on an x-wing base.

No it's not. It's still an X-Wing, just one that's been modified to look a lot like a Z-95.

Well, if I failed to see those 2 guns stacked on the wing tips..

And if 1 gun on each wing has been removed?Point is, that it's possible to modify something to the point that it could easily be confused for something else. Just because the base says X-Wing on it, doesn't mean people won't get confused. How often do you actually look at the base of a ship when playing?I rarely do, because I can tell a Defender from a Phantom from a Interceptor quite easily by looking at the model.But when someone change the model to the point that it's not quite so easy, like putting extra wings on a Tie Fighter so it looks like a Tie Interceptor... Then you have something that can affect the outcome of the game.So it is not as simple as "mods are purely visual and have no effect on the game itself."

Sure, one gun on each wing removed.. but then where's the droid, or.. hey there is a droid.. X wing.. the aft sections look different as well.. I cant honestly see a point where I wouldn't be able to look at a ship and not see what it really is.. unless it is radically different.

Possibly in the heat of action you overlook minor details and tou get fooled... but... that can happen qhen you forget where a particulat TIE is, and there are 6 more on the table..