Oh come on, you've got to talk to the player before going to the TO. It's failing to do that that makes you that guy. If you have a problem with the other player's modified ship then you're absolutely in the right to ask him to use another model and complain to the TO if he won't or can't comply, but I'd have quite a bad view of you if you didn't try to resolve it with him first.

Oh come on, you've got to talk to the player before going to the TO. It's failing to do that that makes you that guy. ..

I think that holds for any rule issue you might encounter - in most cases it's faster, better for the atmosphere around the table and costs less man hours/nerves for the TO

In what way is that E-wing at all modified. It simply looks painted, which is explicitly allowed.

Top gun has been replaced with an astromech.

But hey, let's bend the rules. Modified ships, sure why not. It's close to what the original looks like. Hey, I have a 105 point ship list for a 100 point tournament, 105 points is pretty close to 100, so that's fine, right?

Hey B is in the alphabet with Z, so they're pretty close, I'll use a B Wing's card but pay Z wing points for it.

You are trying to make me look like a villain for respecting the rules. If the rules mentioned modified ships were okay then I would have no problem respecting that as well.

Someone customised a model slightly so now they're going to make blatantly illegal lists that grant them a clear advantage? I'm not sure how someone making a geniune rules are rules argument can make that ridiculous jump. It's like saying if someone used rigged dice (blatant cheating) then they're probably going to start slipping cyanide into their opponent's drinks in terms of proportion. Minor model modifications don't adversely affect you in any way, shape or form, and kicking up a fuss about it isn't redressing an imbalance, it's trying to grab a personal advantage if they don't have a replacement ship.

A ship with broken wings and bits is technically under that rule bit. So, yes, I would bring it up and let the TO decide. Why are people showing up to tournaments with broken bits? Would a golfer show up to a tournament with busted clubs?

Are you for real? You'd try to get someone DQed for worn ships? This sounds above and beyond clinging tightly to rules as written in an attempt to maintain fairness. This sounds like trying to win by any means.

Oh come on, you've got to talk to the player before going to the TO. It's failing to do that that makes you that guy. ..

I think that holds for any rule issue you might encounter - in most cases it's faster, better for the atmosphere around the table and costs less man hours/nerves for the TO

Yep!

I find it hilarious that it's my modified and repainted B-wing that's used as an example! I've used it in a few tournies and I've had no complaints as of yet. It's rather been the opposite in the style of 'I want one of those!'

Anyway this discussion seems to be a fairly clear cut case of RAW (Rules As Written) vs RAI (Rules As Intended). The rules are written as they are to prevent unfairness and unclear situations. You can't be wishy-washy when writing rules like this, better they are written as absolutes rather than being ambiguous. However the intention of the rule can be discussed, and while none of us can be certain of the intentions we can make some guesses. I certainly feel that the rules were never truly about disqualifying creative conversions, but rather to be quick and simple. Also remember the little caveat about the TO having the final say, that leaves quite a lot of elbow room.

Back to my B-wing, according the RAW rules it is technically illegal for me to use it in a tournament setting because I've shaved of some mould lines when I repainted it. The physical properties of the ship has been changed. Of course, if someone were to call me out on that I would probably not be very happy with that person, even more so if that person were to go speak with the TO. Respect is a two-way street after all, and it would be very hard for me to see that person as something other than 'that guy'. Being a douchebag over something that is only meant to enhance the gameplay for everyone (nicely painted and converted models is generally appreciated by everyone) is no way to make friends. Just my two coins of whatever currency we may be using.

Fly Casual.. it really does have meaning.. which is still being missed ..

Actually, at this point, I don't think it does. While I understand where Hothie was coming from, the phrase has been hijacked and been used to justify attacking those who are sticklers for the rules. The militant casuals who have hijacked the phrase to justify their own jerkiness against those who want to follow the rules is just as bad as those who are "win at all costs". I fail to see how making sure to get the judges ok about a modded ship is trying to get a person booted from a tournament. I don't have a problem with repaints, but I do have problems with making a ship into a completely different ship.

I fail to see how making sure to get the judges ok about a modded ship is trying to get a person booted from a tournament.

Calling over the TO to an opponent's horizontal B-wing has three possible outcomes: A: the TO rules it fine and nothing happens, or the TO does not and either B: the B-wing is replaced by a vertical or C: the person doesn't have a vertical B-wing and is booted.

I can only think of two motives to call the TO over: you're geniunely bothered by a horizontal B-wing and after the B outcome or you're trying to get the C outcome. With extreme ship customisation I can see someone being bothered, but when we're talking horizontal B-wings, E-wings with alterations to the top cannon, Decimators with larger guns or even damaged ships (one person in this thread said they'd call over a TO in the case of an opponent having damaged models!) I find it harder to believe that the person calling the TO is geniunely bothered and not simply after C.

If you're after the A outcome there's no reason whatsoever to call over the TO.

With extreme ship customisation I can see someone being bothered, but when we're talking horizontal B-wings, E-wings with alterations to the top cannon, Decimators with larger guns or even damaged ships (one person in this thread said they'd call over a TO in the case of an opponent having damaged models!) I find it harder to believe that the person calling the TO is geniunely bothered and not simply after C.

But now we have to define extreme, and that's going to vary from person to person. And rather than FFG wasting time with a long list of what they consider extreme so that TOs aren't making subjective opinion calls, they've just ruled out customized shops altogether.

And yes, the TO is the final authority. If that final authority is, "Sorry, that ship is customized, it's not allowed," we should accept and abide by it as much as if they allowed it, not imply they're jerks or anti-fun. They're not "final authority as long as I like the decision."

The two aren't mutually exclusive. A TO who kicks out your Tie because you stepped on it and now the wings aren't straight is both in his rights and backed by the rules. His being a jerk is also true.

If someone wants to concede the match or the tournament because their opponent had a problem with the way they were bending the rules, then that's fine with me and everyone else there, I guarantee it.

If I was there I wouldn't be happy with your behaviour.

Not one little bit.

So you are wrong in your guarantee.

This little attitude right here:

I may tell them to get bent..

But go ahead and keep making inferences about the kind of person I am, I'm not here to talk about my character, again I'm just pointing to what the rules say.

I think your character is pretty clear from your posts.

Trying to get a win because someone has slightly modded a ship and asking for them to be disqualified rather than beating them through skill is being a WAAC player.

Not a nice opponent.

I hope I never meet you in a game.

Have you ever actually done this or are you just Trolling?

Because I would advise you to think carefully about doing it, some people travel long distances, costing time and money to attend tournaments.

What happens if you did it to someone who really didnt appreciate you getting them kicked out the tournament for your cheap and hollow victory?

I fail to see how making sure to get the judges ok about a modded ship is trying to get a person booted from a tournament.

Calling over the TO to an opponent's horizontal B-wing has three possible outcomes: A: the TO rules it fine and nothing happens, or the TO does not and either B: the B-wing is replaced by a vertical or C: the person doesn't have a vertical B-wing and is booted.

I can only think of two motives to call the TO over: you're geniunely bothered by a horizontal B-wing and after the B outcome or you're trying to get the C outcome. With extreme ship customisation I can see someone being bothered, but when we're talking horizontal B-wings, E-wings with alterations to the top cannon, Decimators with larger guns or even damaged ships (one person in this thread said they'd call over a TO in the case of an opponent having damaged models!) I find it harder to believe that the person calling the TO is geniunely bothered and not simply after C.

If you're after the A outcome there's no reason whatsoever to call over the TO.

Clearly it's option C the person would be after.

A and B do nothing except waste time.

Also - Rotating a B-wing and it's cockpit doesn't actually change the size OR shape of the model.

It only rotates the shape.

So, perfectly legal.

All you have to do is show your ships to the TO once you arrive. Ask said TO if the ships cause a problem to the no customizing rules. If the TO says "no problem thier fine to play" you're good enjoy the tournament, if the TO says "sorry no custom ships allowed" you're out nothing. You never entered the tournament or paid entry fees if the TO says no. Stand by and wait for the players who drop and pick up some Casusal Games.

With extreme ship customisation I can see someone being bothered, but when we're talking horizontal B-wings, E-wings with alterations to the top cannon, Decimators with larger guns or even damaged ships (one person in this thread said they'd call over a TO in the case of an opponent having damaged models!) I find it harder to believe that the person calling the TO is geniunely bothered and not simply after C.

But now we have to define extreme, and that's going to vary from person to person. And rather than FFG wasting time with a long list of what they consider extreme so that TOs aren't making subjective opinion calls, they've just ruled out customized shops altogether.

And yes, the TO is the final authority. If that final authority is, "Sorry, that ship is customized, it's not allowed," we should accept and abide by it as much as if they allowed it, not imply they're jerks or anti-fun. They're not "final authority as long as I like the decision."

My post was on player motivations, not on legality. The TO's ruling is final, end of. How many times must I reiterate I'm talking about players here?

The two aren't mutually exclusive. A TO who kicks out your Tie because you stepped on it and now the wings aren't straight is both in his rights and backed by the rules. His being a jerk is also true.

All you have to do is show your ships to the TO once you arrive. Ask said TO if the ships cause a problem to the no customizing rules. If the TO says "no problem thier fine to play" you're good enjoy the tournament, if the TO says "sorry no custom ships allowed" you're out nothing. You never entered the tournament or paid entry fees if the TO says no. Stand by and wait for the players who drop and pick up some Casusal Games.

You guys have the right of it, spot-on. Everyone else seems a bit too keen to jump on randomvirus for being willing to enforce Rules as Written. He's also said he'd leave it to the discretion of any Tournament Operator, so I fail to see any true issue between anyone in the thread.

I'm usually a bit biased in topics like these because I'm a strictly casual player and I like modding and painting of minis, in particular in this case where you don't have to paint every mini once you started.

But I have to say, that just because someone asks a ruling about something which is actually something written down in the rulebook doesn't automatically make him the bad guy in this scenario. As I have written before actually talking to your opponent before calling on the TO is common curtsey - just to get this out of the way .

While you can talk about every deviation (and that solves the problem most of the time) in principle rules aren't pick and choose.

Since this rule is probably to weed out extreme cases and probably most of the TOs see it that way it will stay in the unproblematic area.

As a side note, aside from the here given minor changes there are also some modifications which, for me at least, have nothing to do with StarWars, which in consequence would have a negative impact on my game enjoyment.

Just following the rules is not enough. We are all smart enough to know a reasonable rule from an unreasonable rule. Just because something is in the rules does not make it automatically acceptable.

Would you support a enforcing a rule stating that ships flown off the edge of the mat could be stepped on by the opposing player? Obviously not, and anyone who would do so would be appropriately labeled by other players.

This situation is not as extreme as the above example, but we are talking about punishing something that is beneficial to the community that has no improper impact on gameplay (if there is any impact at all).

Seriously, I get that it's more fun to win than to lose. However, this is toy spaceships. I don't care if Randomvirus is playing in a tournament or not. Going straight for a TO to report a broken laser on a x-wing is an d|ck move, period. it's not something that will affect the game one whit. Good luck to him getting a friendly game in ever again with any players he treats like that.

Seriously, I get that it's more fun to win than to lose. However, this is toy spaceships. I don't care if Randomvirus is playing in a tournament or not. Going straight for a TO to report a broken laser on a x-wing is an d|ck move, period. it's not something that will affect the game one whit. Good luck to him getting a friendly game in ever again with any players he treats like that.

And what is "Fly Casual" about assuming the worst in someone? Especially by jumping to extremes. What I think a lot of those that are not jumping to name calling are thinking about the other situation the original poster stated, a conversion into a different ship. Which can lead to confusion.

Fly Casual.. it really does have meaning.. which is still being missed ..

Actually, at this point, I don't think it does. While I understand where Hothie was coming from, the phrase has been hijacked and been used to justify attacking those who are sticklers for the rules. The militant casuals who have hijacked the phrase to justify their own jerkiness against those who want to follow the rules is just as bad as those who are "win at all costs". I fail to see how making sure to get the judges ok about a modded ship is trying to get a person booted from a tournament. I don't have a problem with repaints, but I do have problems with making a ship into a completely different ship.

I agree. "Fly casual" could be applied to both letting someone get away with using an illegally modified ship and letting someone who has a problem with an illegally modified ship complain about it. The people who use it in one case and not the other seem rather narrow-minded and arrogant in my view: completely unwilling to see the other person's point of view, they just label them as "that guy".

Seriously, I get that it's more fun to win than to lose. However, this is toy spaceships. I don't care if Randomvirus is playing in a tournament or not. Going straight for a TO to report a broken laser on a x-wing is an d|ck move, period. it's not something that will affect the game one whit. Good luck to him getting a friendly game in ever again with any players he treats like that.

And what is "Fly Casual" about assuming the worst in someone? Especially by jumping to extremes. What I think a lot of those that are not jumping to name calling are thinking about the other situation the original poster stated, a conversion into a different ship. Which can lead to confusion.

Sadly not. We're not talking Lambdas into assault gunboats or full on YT conversions, we're talking horizontal B-wings and minor model damage. See post #55 and post #69. He stated he'd call over the TO for the horizontal B-wing, the astromech E-wing and an X-wing with broken guns. That's why people are saying he's being unreasonable/going for outcome C.

Randomvirus, what you and I posted isnt identical. You left off the entire 3rd paragraph that I didn't, minr is just formatted badly but it basically is the paragraph that makes turning a B-Wing legal. Further I'm not attempting to villify you for following the rules. I think your tact though makes yoh appear to be taking a waac attitude because of your u willingness to ask your opponent if thdg have a normal b-wing. If you came to me ovrr an opponent's turned b-wing, and they dont seem to be full of attitude, id ask if you asked them if they have one. The TO is there to smoothly run the event, prevent cheating, and resolve rules disputes ig the players cant. Since you go straight to the TO you aren't attempting to resolve anything.

Nothing personal, just the way I see it from my long experience of running various games.

I understand your pov, I just don't agree with it. Nothing to do with "Fly Casual", more like "Fly 'Tact'ical"

There are a couple of valid points on either side, but I'll just put this one out there because it hasn't been addressed yet.

The basis for following the rules to the letter, as advocated by people insisting that their opponent uses stock ships, appears to be 'why let one rule be broken, because the consequence is that more rules will inevitably be broken?' such as cheating with points values or game mechanics.

This is an illogical argument. Suppose you're a Christian and you follow the 10 Commandments (simplistic example) but you think the one about not worshipping false idols is a bit silly in 2015, so you keep a statue of Mick Jagger (or whatever) on the mantlepiece. Have you broken a commandment? In the strictest possible interpretation of the rules, yes. Does this make it more likely that you are going to murder, commit adultery or disrespect your parents? No.

Breaking one rule (against ship mods) is not a "slippery slope" because I have yet to meet ANYONE who couldn't see the immediate and obvious difference between rotating a B-wing, and writing a 110pt list to use in a 100pt tournament. Saying "I disagree with A because B is the inevitable result" is a supposition with no basis in reality and only partial basis in theory.

If you still need convincing, consider the purpose of the rules. They exist to make sure that one person does not have an unequal advantage over the other. That's why both players get 100pts, use the same templates etc. If you can give a real life example of the actual competitive advantage conferred by cutting off an E Wings top gun, then I'd love to hear it. Otherwise you're simply doing what the piece of paper tells you, mindlessly, without using your gift of human cognitive ability to be able to work out WHY the piece of paper is saying what it is - to provide valid and legitimate recourse to players and TOs in the case that someone does arrive with a model so kitbashed you can't tell what it is, where it came from, or even what direction it's facing.

It's not that the person who breaks the no-mod rule will then go on to break other rules. It's that someone else who wants to break a different rule can then say, "He broke a rule, why can't I?" And then we're into determining which rules and breakable and which rules aren't and no one is ever going to agree on that and every tournament is an argument waiting to happen.

Your point on arguments springing up on what's an acceptable mod and what isn't is fair enough but no sane human being is going to argue that they can rig their damage deck for example because someone has a broken gun on their X-wing. Making such clearly absurd suggestions doesn't help your case.

No, but they might argue they should be allowed a re-do an a mistake. Or move all their PS2 ships at once, then assign their actions.

Your point on arguments springing up on what's an acceptable mod and what isn't is fair enough.

If I'm a TO, I'd want anyone who has a customized ship to show it to me prior to the start of the event, and would even make an announcement accordingly.

then everyone could assume that any ship that's been modified has been approved by me.

I think there is a point to the slippery slope argument, not that someone flying a E-Wing with a gun moved is going to lead to someone else bringing a 110 point list or altered damage deck.

But what starts with a change to the gun location on a E-Wing could lead to further mod's, which may lead to even further mods. This could lead to a point where you have people upset because That mod is ok, but This one isn't.