I saw someone playing with what looked like an E-wing with three other sets of wings sticking off of it

Was it this?

I'd draw the line at no longer being instantly recognisable as the original ship.

I dunno but i want one...

We're running pretty far afield of my original point, which is that a TO who decides to adhere to the letter of FFG's rules doesn't deserve to get called names for doing so.

Where did the TO being "that guy" come from? I thought it was fairly clear from the discussion that in the hypothetical scenario it's a player kicking up a fuss over a moved E-wing gun or horizontal B-wing, and if they're doing it to try to get the other player disqualified so that they can advance then they are "that guy."

The TO has the final authority and sets the limits on what's legal and what isn't. They're never "that guy".

This post on the first page:

Painting is allowed. It says so in the rules.

However, actually changing the ship is technically not allowed. Unless your TO just wants to be a jerk, I don't think many would have a problem with that sorta thing though. I certainly wouldn't.

Followed by:

At the local leveli doubt anyone will say anything unless its "that ******* guy" however once you start going to regionals and above it might become more of an issue due to streaming and ffg presence. Always have a stock legal backup to cover your ass.

Which I interpreted to mean the TO, coming as it did right after the previous post, but which I can see being read as referring to an opponent.

As long as the model is still recognizable as the ship it's representing, it should be fine. Even though the ship type and stats are printed on the base, when everything is down on the table it's difficult to tell what is what just by looking at the bases without having to lean in all the time, which is problematic during a tournament where you are encouraging expedient play. People say the models aren't relevant for gameplay, but they do have a practical application in that it makes it much to tell which ships are which at a glance. CCGs have a similar rule for tournaments that says you can paint over the card as much as you want, but if you obscure the art or make it unrecognizable, it's a no-go even if the text is left unaltered because players use the card art to identify the cards at a glance without having to pick up every card and read it again and again.

I could see someone get into trouble if they painted their Alpha Interceptors like 181st or Baron Fel like a RGI AND that player tricked the enemy player into thinking that was really what they were up agianst.

Doing that's completely legal anyway. You could field a rebel Z-95 squad with all Black Sun Z-95 models if you wanted, or repaint all your interceptors red.

I don't think the part about the player with the painted minis being misleading on purpose is legal though. Like for example the REB player or whatever they are, takes a glance at the minis, sees two red interceptors and x amount of tie fighters and makes a comment like, "those both just RGI?" The IMP player just nods while not really looking at the person asking, this is so if they get called out on what happens next they can be like "I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying while I was thinking to myself. Ternies are stressful so I was doing some thought exercises to calm down and focus."

Granted its risky if they do the above because of the confusion caused they may get booted anyway, but there also a chance a judge will roll with what just happened.

You'd honestly try to get someone thrown out for this?

Or this?

Here's what the rules say:

Yes, I absolutely would bring this up to a TO based on both that B Wing and E Wing that you showed me. I would point out the rule that asks for a component to have a replacement, then whatever the TO says I'll abide.

These are the rules for the tournaments, players should abide by the rules. If I came in breaking a rule like that I should expect someone else would do the same for me.

I don't want to lose to someone who got an exception because "meh". Because when you start bending one rule, you start bending others, then none of the rules mean anything.

In what way is that E-wing at all modified. It simply looks painted, which is explicitly allowed.

Some people just like to whine and ruin someones day, instead of saying something like.. hey nice paintjob, oh wow, do those rotate.. cool beans man.. nice work. Instead they wanna cry foul and cry to the TO.. I'm a talentless piece of crap and can't paint, I don't want anyone else to show off their awesome skills it makes me feel inferior.. whaaaaaa...

Even if I had replacement ships, I'd walk out because I dont care to game with lame people..

Also, figure you're probably gaming with your friends in a local tourney.. if ypu treat your friends like that, I dont wanna be your friend...

Are we really this petty guys.. you have to rain on someones parade because "the rules say..." well the rules are flexible, unlike some people that think they know better.. time to lighten up kids.. its a game and people like to paint.. and modify ships, as long as ypu can tell what it is.. get over yourself and play the game.. too much whining here these days.. sheesh

You'd honestly try to get someone thrown out for this?

Or this?

Here's what the rules say:

Yes, I absolutely would bring this up to a TO based on both that B Wing and E Wing that you showed me. I would point out the rule that asks for a component to have a replacement, then whatever the TO says I'll abide.

These are the rules for the tournaments, players should abide by the rules. If I came in breaking a rule like that I should expect someone else would do the same for me.

I don't want to lose to someone who got an exception because "meh". Because when you start bending one rule, you start bending others, then none of the rules mean anything.

What would you do if you noticed someone with a slightly damaged model?

I know I've seen my share of bent/broken lasers, cracked/flaked resin, etc. and sometimes it just doesn't seem worth it to bother FFG for a replacement. But technically those models would be "modified".

Couldn't disagree with your general philosophy more, btw. You've never crossed an empty street against the light? Had a beer before your 18th/19th/21st?

In what way is that E-wing at all modified. It simply looks painted, which is explicitly allowed.

I agree, but the gun over the cockpit is modifued.. doesn't bother me but its what he's getting at.. and the B wing rotates.. cause that totally confuses what it is... lol

There is a concept.. Fly Casual.. some people forget its meaning I think...

In what way is that E-wing at all modified. It simply looks painted, which is explicitly allowed.

Upper gun is removed and replaced with an exposed astromech.

Some people just like to whine and ruin someones day, instead of saying something like.. he nice paintjob, oh wow, do thos rotate.. cool beans man.. nice work. Instead theynwanna cry foul and cry tonthe TO.. I'm a talentless piece of crap and cant paint, I dont want anyone else to show off their awesome skills it makes me feel inferior.. whaaaaaa...

Even if I had replacement ships, I'd walk out because I dont care to game with lame people..

Also, figure you're probably gaming with your friends in a local tourney.. if ypu treat your friends like that, I dont wanna be ypur friend...

Are we really this petty guys.. you have to rain on someones parade because "the rules say..." well the rules are flexible, unlike some people that think they know better.. time to lighten up kids.. its a game and people like to paint.. and modify ships, as long as ypu can tell what it is.. get over yourself and play the game.. too much whining here these days.. sheesh

Casual play is friendly. People don't enter a tournament to have laughs and giggles, they are entering to win. People spend time and money for that chance. Painting is not the issue, ship modifications are.

The rules say modifications that alter the physical shape or size are not allowed.

The rules say the TO has final say.

I will bring it up to the TO, mention the rules, and allow the TO to decide.

If someone wants to concede the match or the tournament because their opponent had a problem with the way they were bending the rules, then that's fine with me and everyone else there, I guarantee it.

I have heard of one instance...

One of the Imperial Remnant guys from Indianapolis had a shuttle that had the dorsal fin removed, the wings trimmed, and the front cockpit removed. In place of the front cockpit, the dish from the Falcon was glued. Made it look like a drone. Awesome looking ship. He said that he had someone request he use a regular Lambda shuttle as his model was difficult to easily recognize as a shuttle. He complied and moved on with life. The request and response was done with respect. The rules enforced without being "that guy" and the rules accepted without being "that guy". This is how it should be and how I see most players in this community.

At the very least I would expect the accusing player to offer one of their models as a replacement for their match or the whole tournament. That would be a very respectful and sportsmanlike way to handle the situation.

I personally have a modified B-Wing. I always make sure to bring an extra unmodified B-Wing with me usually in my car if it's close enough. I've ran it at regionals in chicago as well as other events. No complaints were found.

I also have a very modified shuttle which I would definitely make sure I have my extra with me.

You'd honestly try to get someone thrown out for this?

Or this?

Here's what the rules say:

Yes, I absolutely would bring this up to a TO based on both that B Wing and E Wing that you showed me. I would point out the rule that asks for a component to have a replacement, then whatever the TO says I'll abide.

These are the rules for the tournaments, players should abide by the rules. If I came in breaking a rule like that I should expect someone else would do the same for me.

I don't want to lose to someone who got an exception because "meh". Because when you start bending one rule, you start bending others, then none of the rules mean anything.

What would you do if you noticed someone with a slightly damaged model?

I know I've seen my share of bent/broken lasers, cracked/flaked resin, etc. and sometimes it just doesn't seem worth it to bother FFG for a replacement. But technically those models would be "modified".

Couldn't disagree with your general philosophy more, btw. You've never crossed an empty street against the light? Had a beer before your 18th/19th/21st?

How about attack the argument instead of the person?

All I'm doing is pointing to the rules.

Which, according to the rules is expressly forbidden.

Which I would bring up to the TO, and let the TO decide.

Lol.. oh whaaa.. he made a droid on it.. sigh...

If someone asked me to use an unmodified ship, I would probably do so, if someone felt they needed to go to a TO about, that's when I decide he's a .... Ricardo... and move on. If you cant play the game without ruining others fun and interest, maybe you're the one who really needs to leave. If you're the only one requesting someone not be permitted to use a ship.. maybe there is where the problem lies..

Sorry, but some people drive the entertainment from the game, and if you play to not have fun, move on to a new game.. dont ruin other peoples fun.

Back to that Fly Casual.. its a thing.. it include tournaments.. not just casual friendly games.. oh wait.. all games should be friendly game...

I think people are taking the "Welllllll, the rules say blah" stance a little too far. First of all, bad rules exist and, unless some game designer has a gun to your head, no one is required to enforce them. If there was a rule that said 'you must smash your opponent's ship if they reveal a red maneuver when their ship has a stress token,' no one would ever actually do that.

Besides, it is obvious that the rule regarding mods exists only for extreme situations, like one ship looking so much like another that it creates the legitimate potential for confusion. That said, the cropping of an E-Wing's cannon or even a shuttle's dorsal wing do not qualify as even remotely confusing - especially in a 100 point game.

Lol.. oh whaaa.. he made a droid on it.. sigh...

If someone asked me to use an unmodified ship, I would probably do so, if someone felt they needed to go to a TO about, that's when I decide he's a .... Ricardo... and move on. If you cant play the game without ruining others fun and interest, maybe you're the one who really needs to leave. If you're the only one requesting someone not be permitted to use a ship.. maybe there is where the problem lies..

Sorry, but some people drive the entertainment from the game, and if you play to not have fun, move on to a new game.. dont ruin other peoples fun.

Back to that Fly Casual.. its a thing.. it include tournaments.. not just casual friendly games.. oh wait.. all games should be friendly game...

Going through life hoping everyone else is going to be pleasant is naive. And I doubt I'll be asked to leave a tournament for abiding by the rules.

But hey, let's bend the rules. Modified ships, sure why not. It's close to what the original looks like. Hey, I have a 105 point ship list for a 100 point tournament, 105 points is pretty close to 100, so that's fine, right?

Hey B is in the alphabet with Z, so they're pretty close, I'll use a B Wing's card but pay Z wing points for it.

You are trying to make me look like a villain for respecting the rules. If the rules mentioned modified ships were okay then I would have no problem respecting that as well.

And time and time again I have said that I abide by letting the TO decide as the rules say.

I can have fun playing, but my fun is hampered when people flout the rules that I am playing by, the standardized rules for the tournaments. Are you really fine with watching someone disregard rules and win?

no one is disregarding rules.. you're making too much of a little thing.. as was pointed out these minor things are easily looked over, I am not naive, but far from it. I expect people to follow rules but if a B wing rotates I'm not gonna complain. A mod'd ship isn't going to win anyone anything, even if someone used a model that was extremely mod'd I wouldn't complain.. but I'm easy going and don't care about that the model looks like.

If they wanna cheat and tell me their ship can fly backward because they put the guns on it reversed I'm gonna call BS.. lol..

all we are saying is lighten up.. just because a ship looks slightly different.. like the two shown earlier.. if you get a TO involved.. it makes you a jerk.. plain and simple..

also what was said about a broken gun on a ship.. you never answered except to say don't make it personal.. well you didn't answer the question.. it still stands.. if I fly an X wind with 2 broken guns.. why would you give two squirts about it.

If you can't discuss with someone about a issue you have and have to go to the TO first.. it means something.. and it isn't flattering.. just saying..

Like I said, if someone had an issue with my Red painted Advanced.. and they talked to me about it, I'd be fine with swapping it out, but call someone in.. and I figure you're ^ and haven't any people skills.. just how I see it.. that's what I have been getting at if it wasn't clear before.. and that's what I mean about fly casual.. but some just don't get it..

So, the poster posting rules seems to be cutting and pasting to git thier needs so here are yhe rules pertaining to shape and position.

"Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their squads according to

the following rules. The TO is the final authority on any component’s eligibility

in the tournament. If a component is ruled ineligible and the player does not

have a replacement for it, that player is disqualified from the tournament.

Ship models may be painted as desired as long as the alterations are not

offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience. The size and

shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way.

Ship bases cannot be modified to alter their size or shape. Weight may be

added to a ship base if it does not alter the shape of the base. Ship pegs

(including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or

replaced as desired so long as the alterations are not offensive and do not

adversely affect another player’s experience."

Under these rules the ship can be rotated any direction. As far as cockpit orientation the b wing cockpit is a curved cone and its pretty hard to argue the b wing shape has been changed.

The e-wing shape however has been changed. The modification though does not make the ship un recognizable. With TO having final say, the owning player should tell the TO pre game. If a player has a problem and the TO has already signed off on it then the "offended" player may bring it to the TO attention. At that point though it would hurt the credibility of the TO if they reversed thier decision.

Sorry for any typos, done on my smartphone

no one is disregarding rules.. you're making too much of a little thing.. as was pointed out these minor things are easily looked over, I am not naive, but far from it. I expect people to follow rules but if a B wing rotates I'm not gonna complain. A mod'd ship isn't going to win anyone anything, even if someone used a model that was extremely mod'd I wouldn't complain.. but I'm easy going and don't care about that the model looks like.

If they wanna cheat and tell me their ship can fly backward because they put the guns on it reversed I'm gonna call BS.. lol..

all we are saying is lighten up.. just because a ship looks slightly different.. like the two shown earlier.. if you get a TO involved.. it makes you a jerk.. plain and simple..

also what was said about a broken gun on a ship.. you never answered except to say don't make it personal.. well you didn't answer the question.. it still stands.. if I fly an X wind with 2 broken guns.. why would you give two squirts about it.

If you can't discuss with someone about a issue you have and have to go to the TO first.. it means something.. and it isn't flattering.. just saying..

Like I said, if someone had an issue with my Red painted Advanced.. and they talked to me about it, I'd be fine with swapping it out, but call someone in.. and I figure you're ^ and haven't any people skills.. just how I see it.. that's what I have been getting at if it wasn't clear before.. and that's what I mean about fly casual.. but some just don't get it..

You have a lot of things to say about me and insults to infer without knowing me at all.

A ship with broken wings and bits is technically under that rule bit. So, yes, I would bring it up and let the TO decide. Why are people showing up to tournaments with broken bits? Would a golfer show up to a tournament with busted clubs?

And I'm still not sure how playing by the rules makes me a bad guy.

And, CJKeys, you realize you are claiming I'm copy pasta to suit my needs but you just showed the same rules I showed...

So, the poster posting rules seems to be cutting and pasting to git thier needs so here are yhe rules pertaining to shape and position.

"Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their squads according to

the following rules. The TO is the final authority on any component’s eligibility

in the tournament. If a component is ruled ineligible and the player does not

have a replacement for it, that player is disqualified from the tournament.

Ship models may be painted as desired as long as the alterations are not

offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience. The size and

shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way.

Ship bases cannot be modified to alter their size or shape. Weight may be

added to a ship base if it does not alter the shape of the base. Ship pegs

(including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or

replaced as desired so long as the alterations are not offensive and do not

adversely affect another player’s experience."

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/131046-have-you-ever-seen-a-converted-shup-actually-get-banned-from-competitive-play/page-3#entry1396990

That's my post, unedited, you posted the exact same rules I posted, how am I "copy pasting to (suit) (my) needs"?

So, what is a shape modification? Is the shape of the ship modified when the angle is changed from the original position? I think it is, I think the shape of how the ship occupies physical space has been altered. But that's my interpretation, and I'd again let a TO decide.

Again, I do not understand why I am being vilified because I am adhering to the rules, or why you want to imply that it means something that "isn't flattering".

no one is disregarding rules.. you're making too much of a little thing.. as was pointed out these minor things are easily looked over, I am not naive, but far from it. I expect people to follow rules but if a B wing rotates I'm not gonna complain. A mod'd ship isn't going to win anyone anything, even if someone used a model that was extremely mod'd I wouldn't complain.. but I'm easy going and don't care about that the model looks like.

If they wanna cheat and tell me their ship can fly backward because they put the guns on it reversed I'm gonna call BS.. lol..

all we are saying is lighten up.. just because a ship looks slightly different.. like the two shown earlier.. if you get a TO involved.. it makes you a jerk.. plain and simple..

also what was said about a broken gun on a ship.. you never answered except to say don't make it personal.. well you didn't answer the question.. it still stands.. if I fly an X wind with 2 broken guns.. why would you give two squirts about it.

If you can't discuss with someone about a issue you have and have to go to the TO first.. it means something.. and it isn't flattering.. just saying..

Like I said, if someone had an issue with my Red painted Advanced.. and they talked to me about it, I'd be fine with swapping it out, but call someone in.. and I figure you're ^ and haven't any people skills.. just how I see it.. that's what I have been getting at if it wasn't clear before.. and that's what I mean about fly casual.. but some just don't get it..

You have a lot of things to say about me and insults to infer without knowing me at all.

A ship with broken wings and bits is technically under that rule bit. So, yes, I would bring it up and let the TO decide. Why are people showing up to tournaments with broken bits? Would a golfer show up to a tournament with busted clubs?

And I'm still not sure how playing by the rules makes me a bad guy.

I'm generalizing, but I can see where you might see me coming at you.. not my intent really.

when I say you I mean the guy making the protest.. sure you keep saying you'd go to the TO..

look, all I'm saying is I find it poor manners to not talk to someone first.. I'm ex military, and if I have a problem I go to the person I have a beef with.. then if we can't solve it.. I go to the next higher paygrade.. I don't just go to the Chief and gripe.. he's gonna hand me my behind and tell me to go talk to the person I have a gripe with..

like I said if anyone had a problem with my ships.. they are free to come to me and discuss it.. I may tell them to get bent.. but I will do so after having gotten it cleared before hand.. and besides. I'll be gaming with my friends and we dont get petty.. that's just how I feel.. we're adults act like it.. and again..

Fly Casual.. it really does have meaning.. which is still being missed ..

edit

also... maybe the guy with a broken ship, doesn't have the cash to replace it or no skill with the craftiness of this hobby. he shows up with what he has.. and fly's casual.. you know.. cause we rib him a little but let him play cause he's a good guy..

...

What would you do if you noticed someone with a slightly damaged model?

depends on the damage

if a gun is broken reduce the number of attack dice by one

if an engine is damaged make all maneuvers red ones

if the cockpit is scratched/painted over remove one evade die - what you can't see ...

hull damage ...

specific one: R2D2 damaged -> play C3PO complaints non-stop

<hmm> probably could find more if I thought about it a bit more

This little attitude right here:

I may tell them to get bent..

That is why I would go directly to a TO. Because people become very defensive when confronted by someone they do not perceive to have the authority to affect them.

I would absolutely go to the TO first. If they are breaking a rule, the people who adjudicate those rules should be notified.

Your manners are not my manners. Because for me, it's bad manners to show up flagrantly violating tournament rules.

But go ahead and keep making inferences about the kind of person I am, I'm not here to talk about my character, again I'm just pointing to what the rules say.

I "fly casual" when I'm playing with friends. When I'm in a tournament I "fly to win". Whatever tournament I'm in. I'm not putting time and money down to walk in and go "ho hum, aw shucks let's all hug it out."

see that's all you got from anything I said.. and missed or ignored where I said.. if they talk to me first.. we can hash it out.. but also stated that I would have cleared it with the TO first and probably told the person as much during the discussion.. so if after that they wanna cry about it. yeah.. get bent.. lol..

I don't have issue with Rules.. I have issue with people that flagrantly abuse or ignore them.. a simple mod to make a B wing spin, isn't something I will worry about..

I also want to win in a tourney, but I'm still there to have fun.. if that is in jeopardy then yes I will walk.. 5 or 10 bucks isn't enough to put me in the poor house, and I dislike the attitude of.. Play to win at all costs.. it's poor sportsmanship in my book..

not going to do something that gets me angry.. I enjoy the game, and that is first to me.. others may do it differently, that's on them.

The only important parts of the ship are the base and the placard it holds. They tell you how much space the ship takes up and which way it's facing. After that, it's simple a matter of being able to align those bases next to each other. The modifications one might make should not physically prevent ships sitting base to base if the situation calls for it. However, as FFG seems to be pretty lenient with that rule themselves (I'm looking squarely at YOU, Decimator), then yeah, the bases are all that matter. You can play the bloody game without the ships even attached as long as the bases and placards are unaltered. So that should be the rule. Don't F with the bases or placards and don't put anything that could be considered offensive in public. Any one who disagrees is suffering from tight pant syndrome. This includes anyone at FFG, though I'm inclined to believe that they would likely agree with me seeing as how they make fun for a living (lucky sunna-ma-guns)

see that's all you got from anything I said..

Another inference.

I chose to highlight what I felt was best representative of your discussion. It is not all I got from it.