That's the first career to do that then, because it's perfectly fine to have a Colonist who's a diplomat or a kloo horn player without needing to become a gunslinger cop. You can have a perfectly valid Hired Gun who isn't shooty, and can still use their Signature abilities.

The Hired Gun must be in combat to take full advantage of his signature abilities. His abilities will do little in other talky or non-combat situations, unlike say the Colonist's Unmatched Expertise which has a broader use. Is that fair? The abilities are there to colour the careers. I don't want to see generic abilities for my careers. I want to see abilities which will highlight and make those careers more unique.

Why does Ace even offer the non-piloting specs then if they're only meant to be 'prestige classes' for a pilot? Up until now, most Specs can stand on their own.

They are not non-piloting specs unless you focus them to be. They are piloting specs with alternate focuses. Gunners are pilots that can shoot better and Riggers are pilots with a mechanical talent. If you choose to focus on the secondary feature, that's on the player.

If you allow for the Ace/Rigger to use his ability when not piloting in some capacity what happens in the future when some enterprising technician joins up and has a signature ability that gets trumped because you're allowing the Ace to jump all over his schtick?

I'd be interested to see if this is where FFG is going. The career splatbooks have all introduced at least one Spec that steps outside the career a little. The Colonist/Marshal or Explorer/BGH allow you to have a more combat-focused character, without leaving your career or outshining the Hired Guns. Hired Gun had Demolitionist, which offers stuff like Mechanics and Computer that most HGs don't have.

Well if you allow the Ace/Rigger to use their abilities outside of piloting in some capacity then you are leaving your career. Might as well just be a mechanic at that point.

And yet, all these Specs can still happily benefit from the Signature abilities; the Demolitionist can narrate that he's using bombs or grenades for Last Man Standing, for example.

But he still has to be in combat to enjoy the benefit.

Maybe Keith or someone who worked on the Specs can clarify - was this an intentional design to restrict the Signature abilities to a few Specs, with the intention that Riggers and Gunners were meant to be second or third Specs?

I only see the restriction if you restrict your build. Or, as seems to be your case, the player relegates himself to a secondary position. Unless the ship doesn't have a copilot seat or astromech slot (if an astromech) I don't know why he wouldn't be able to use his signature abilities to their full extent.

If he wants to run around the engine room like Kaylee then maybe he should have gone the Technician route.

FWIW, I think I would have preferred Beast Rider over Driver as an Explorer spec.

FWIW, I think I would have preferred Beast Rider over Driver as an Explorer spec.

Yeah I'd have to agree with you there. It does seem to fit the career more.

To me, Donovan, it feels like Last Man Standing and Unmatched Protection specifying that you need to be wielding a firearm to use them. And saying to the Marauder or Enforcer, 'quit whining, there's nothing stopping you using a gun'.

Perhaps not a gun, but you do need to be in a combat situation.

if the GM is running a predominately political campaign with little to no action sequences, then the Hired Gun Signature Abilities won't be worth very much. And if a GM is running a ground-based campaign where there's little to no vehicular combat, then the Ace Signature Abilities become nearly as worthless no matter which Ace specialization the PC took.

If the PC Rigger in your party is more interested in being a gearhead than a pilot, then have them start with Technician or Engineer and then allow them to pick up Rigger as a second specialization to give them more direct options for "modifying" a ship outside of starship attachments. And if you're not going to allow PCs to take non-career specializations as a house rule, then it's entirely the fault of the GM for restricting what options a player can use to build and advance their character.

You're certainly free to house-rule your game for your group as you see fit, but don't expect a lot of sympathy when said house-rule (disallowing PCs to take non-career specs, something the game was very much written with the intent of allowing and even encouraging) winds up painting you into a corner.

I don't think you guys are getting what she is saying.

Gunner is not about piloting a ship. It is a combination of a heavy weapons guy(squad automatic weapon?) and vehicle gun operator. The Gunner bonus career skills are Discipline, Gunnery, Ranged(Heavy) and Resilience. None of those are specificallly used as a pilot, and all are used by foot troops.

There are 9 talents that definitely are made for personal scale combat. There are 4 specifically made for planetary scale combat.

None of them deal with piloting a ship. In order for a Gunner to be a decent pilot, (s)he should plan on using a different specialization. It is not a secondary function issue so much as there are zero pilot talents in the tree. Someone with only the Gunner spec should be at a weapons station, not in the captain's chair.

The signature abilities both state "when PILOTING a starship or vehicle", not "when IN a starship or vehicle". Therefore, someone using the Gunner class as designed will be stuffed in a turret somewhere and unable to use the signature ability.

That doesn't bother me personally, but it is still a departure from the typical accessability of the signature abilities.

<snip>

I don't think you guys are getting what she is saying.

I get what Melora is saying. She is quite well spoken. I understand that she is disappointed that the signature abilities are not more universally usable as you must be the/a pilot/copilot to use them. I just do not agree with it.

Gunner is not about piloting a ship. It is a combination of a heavy weapons guy(squad automatic weapon?) and vehicle gun operator. The Gunner bonus career skills are Discipline, Gunnery, Ranged(Heavy) and Resilience. None of those are specificallly used as a pilot, and all are used by foot troops.

There are 9 talents that definitely are made for personal scale combat. There are 4 specifically made for planetary scale combat.

None of them deal with piloting a ship. In order for a Gunner to be a decent pilot, (s)he should plan on using a different specialization. It is not a secondary function issue so much as there are zero pilot talents in the tree. Someone with only the Gunner spec should be at a weapons station, not in the captain's chair.

The signature abilities both state "when PILOTING a starship or vehicle", not "when IN a starship or vehicle". Therefore, someone using the Gunner class as designed will be stuffed in a turret somewhere and unable to use the signature ability.

Gunner specifically is not about piloting, but the career Ace is and signature abilities are about the career and making it unique. Its about flying, driving or riding some sort of vehicle or beast. Gunner is about using weapons on that vehicle that you are piloting as it is the spec for the pilot that has worked to be a great shot with their vehicle weapons. If you focus on Ace/Gunner and choose to plop yourself into a turret or gunnery station instead of a copilot or pilot chair that is your choice, but you are no longer following the fundamentals of your career that FFG put forth.

How about taking the Hired Gun/Demolitionist combo and plopping yourself in the engine room and complaining your signature abilities are no longer applicable. Should we then allow said Hired Gun to be able to use his Unmatched Protection on the whole ship?

That doesn't bother me personally, but it is still a departure from the typical accessability of the signature abilities.

I don't think it is a departure. Careers like Explorer and Colonist have a broader range so their abilities tend to cross that range more. Their abilities may have some use in combat but it in no way makes them combat monsters. Hired Guns have abilities only useful in combat and that are focused on making them quite deadly in combat. Aces have abilities only focused on vehicle combat which is why they must be the pilot in some capacity. Once we get a Technician or Engineer book we will, in all likelihood, have abilities which will support the ship's mechanic, but this career is about the individual pilot. We may even see some sort of Gunner/Heavy spec in a future Soldier book so you can have your dedicated Gunner in a turret or gunnery station.

I understand Melora's frustration, just I have understood other's frustration when the designers do something, which to them, seems against the grain and that is different from norm for them. And it is certainly possible that FFG may change their away of thinking on something if they feel it is warranted. And, of course, Melora is free to do as she will in her own game, as I am sure she will anyways.

I see the Ace as the vehicular combat career. Many Star Wars vehicles have gunners, often multiple gunners, and it seems a shame that Ace is viewed as the "Pilot career" when piloting is only one aspect of vehicular combat.

I see the Ace as the vehicular combat career. Many Star Wars vehicles have gunners, often multiple gunners, and it seems a shame that Ace is viewed as the "Pilot career" when piloting is only one aspect of vehicular combat.

That's fair. But if all you want to do is shoot, I think that would better fall under the Soldier career. Which is why I think we will see some sort of heavy weapons/gunner sort of spec in the future Soldier book.

Gunner specifically is not about piloting, but the career Ace is and signature abilities are about the career and making it unique. Its about flying, driving or riding some sort of vehicle or beast. Gunner is about using weapons on that vehicle that you are piloting as it is the spec for the pilot that has worked to be a great shot with their vehicle weapons. If you focus on Ace/Gunner and choose to plop yourself into a turret or gunnery station instead of a copilot or pilot chair that is your choice, but you are no longer following the fundamentals of your career that FFG put forth.

The problem with this argument is also why I keep using Y-Wings in previous examples. Per the book, if you want to make a starfighter campaign, or if you want something mobile that isn't a Lambda, you're getting just enough Y-Wings to shove all your players into. It's not just players putting themselves into these situations, it's that FFG's default choices/rules also put players into these situations.

In general, restricting the Signature Abilities to pilots-only isn't going to be much of an issue for a vast majority of players/groups. Players will likely branch out into Pilot from starting as a Rigger or Gunner in starfighter campaigns, they'll likely want and even get their own single-seat or multi-pilot starfighters before they even have the chance to get Signature Abilities. But the fact is, not all groups are going to fall into these categories, and as Maelora's group shows, there'll be players with interest in multiple aspects of ship combat, and one of them essentially has no use, per RAW, from using any of the Signature Abilities built for a career that, as HappyDaze points out, focuses on vehicle/starship/mount combat.

And then there's the whole comparison of other Signature Abilities. Colonist, you've got Insightful Revelation which can get you out of a sticky social interaction (or even any kind of situation with enough creativity), and Unmatched Expertise that lets them excel at any task they have as a career skill. Explorer has Unmatched Mobility, which can be extremely useful in combat (Defense and ability to move and use any number of other maneuvers with little hassles) and in timed round-based encounters, and there's also Sudden Discovery to find nearly any useful tidbit of information, regardless of if you're finding an artifact, tracking an animal, or looking for a safe route. Then with Hired Gun, you've got the ability to wipe out scores of enemies or become slightly indestructible; the only catch is that Last One Standing requires combat (though it can be in ANY form of combat). Unmatched Protection drops usefulness drastically when in typical starship combat, but can still be used in vehicle/mount combat when individual people can be targeted, and could still be conceivably be used for a handful of non-combat situations (ie. exploring ruins and shrugging off attacks from deadly darts/ hidden spikes/ etc.).

Then we've got Ace's. You're strictly confined to using them in vehicle/mount/starship combat and only affect their own ship and an opponent's ship. Okay, fine, you're in the career because you care about vehicle combat; it's reasonable enough - maybe not quite so much for Gunner which is supposed to be great for both vehicle and non-vehicle ranged weaponry, but whatever it still fits fine with the general purpose of the career. But then it throws a limit to only pilots/co-pilots. This is where the turn happens. While with other Signature Abilities, you could have players in different Specs with different character concepts while still being in the same Career, all of them able to use both of the Signature Abilities in different ways, now we've got a restriction that makes it so extra requirements pop up to be able to use them. Players need to be separated into their own ships or they have to have the right ships (multiple pilot, or with an Astromech slot if one of the Aces are an Astromech), and even more, it can force players into positions they don't care for (Maelora's example of a support Gunner/Rigger being an excellent example being unable to use Signature Abilities and needing to adjust being a good example).

And then there's the narrative disconnect. Compare a Human and an Astromech with Unmatched Survivability. In a starfighter, they're both free to pop the ability at will because they both have access to pilot controls which in the case of the human a certain degree of control over most aspects of the ship, while the Astromech pretty much haves total control. Now, let's say they each go to a freighter, no Astromech slot. Now the Human still has the ability to pop off Unmatched Survivability because he can hit a few buttons the Astromech can't. Nevermind that the Astromech can move around the ship, talk to its various systems, actually pull out tools to temporarily fix the ship to keep it going a little longer. He can't do it because the seat is maybe blocking buttons that affect power output that he could probably access in other portions of the ship; like near the engines.

Now, this isn't a ginormous issue to me personally since not only do my players like to spread out career-wise on their own accord, but they don't care quite enough about the vehicle-combat aspect of the game to ever want to be a dedicated Gunner; and like I said, most GMs/groups also aren't going to run into the issue. But ignoring the shift in how the Signature Ability for Ace is being handled is tantamount to saying that those running into the issue are playing the game wrong.

An adjustment won't break the career or Signature Ability. You're still stuck using it in Vehicles/Starships/Mounts, and if you picked Ace as a starting career, you're probably going to be drawn to those aspects of the game regardless. It's not going to let Gunners take This One is Mine into personal combat and force the Big Bad of the campaign into a stand-off, it's not going to let Riggers take Unmatched Survivability into personal combat and allow a person to get up from being knocked out from Wound damage. You've still got to be an Ace, you've still got to be in a vehicle of some sort, and still only going to help you move your broken vehicle along for a little longer/ limit being attacked by a single other vehicle.

Short version: Stop telling players are wrong for playing in a way that was set up by FFG, accept that the Signature Abilities need a minor fix.

Thanks Lathrop, that articulates a lot of my misgivings (in rather a lot of detail).

I'm not really interested in a circular argument and I'm definitely not interested in a squabble. I would be interested, from a design point of view, if the writers of the book (who are coming onto the forum and willing to engage with fans) intended the Signature abilities to be narrowed so much. Is this a way they are going in the future, say with Pilot-only Signature Abilities in 'Fly Casual'? Were the Rigger and Gunner specs intended to be secondary specs for someone who started as a Pilot?

Lathrop brings up the additional snag of astromech-on-a-freighter that I hadn't considered; he gets his Signature abilities nerfed now too.

Donovan, I feel that you bringing up my house rules isn't really relevant to the argument, because this isn't about Specialisations at all, it's about Signature Abilities, which you need to be in a career to get.

You say that the Hired Gun SA's require combat to use; that's a bit like comparing apples and oranges, because it requires a situation, not a skillset. For me, this feels similar to if the HG SA's were only useable with a gun in hand (thus making them less useful for a Demolitionist, Enforcer or Marauder).

For what it's worth, my own situation is solvable by the RAW; if the ship is seriously damaged, the Ace/Gunner-Rigger simply takes the driving seat and the Smuggler vacates it, until the danger is over. But that steps on the Pilot's toes more than I'd wish, if that could be avoided.

I was musing (no more than that, and not having the book 'til it hits the UK on Tuesday), if it would cause significant problems if I let that PC use Unmatched Survivability without being in the pilot seat, a bit like Scotty for the Enterprise.

(and for the pedantic; yes I know Scotty is an Engineer or Technician... But nobody wishes to be respecced in their career here. The Smuggler is a Han Solo type, not a Wedge Antilles. The Gunner is perfectly happy as an Ace, but has developed their skill points mostly in Gunnery, Ranged Heavy, Piloting Planetary and Mechanics, rather than Piloting Space. Everyone is okay with their careers and specs - not being allowed to take non-career specs isn't causing the issue here, it's the narrow usability of the Signature Abilities).

I've been following along and have been enjoying the discussion and thought I'd throw my two cents in. I'm in the camp where I wish that there had been a touch more flexibility on these abilities. Even if all that was added was a side bar that covered the Gunner and Rigger who is not the active pilot. Knowing FFG's track record, they'll not issue an errata and say that it's up to each GM in their own game to play with the level of rules that they are comfortable with.

As written, if a player cares about using a Signature Ability and wants to play a Gunner or Rigger who is not the pilot (and the GM is not flexible in house ruling that the Ace Signature Abilities are useful when not the pilot) then the player will have to pick a different starting career/spec with a Signature Ability they can actually use and then dip into Gunner or Rigger. Sucks for the player, but that's the RAW.

I don't have the book, but it's my understanding that the Rigger "Signature Vehicle" talents work the same way, that only the Rigger gets the benifits from talents such as Fancy Paint Job, Tuned Maneuvering Thursters, and Customized Cooling Unit. Which means a Scotty type character who fixes the ship for Kirk/Solo to pilot is not possible for an Ace Rigger with Unmatched Survivability. As written, the concept is limited to a pilot who hot rods their own ship. RAW does not allow for the concept to be for a master mechanic to upgrades a ship for the master pilot. It's a shame it was written this way, but it's noting a simple house rule can fix.

TL:DR I'm sure FFG will just say that if the rules as written don't fit your needs, then come up with house rules. They will not errata the rules they wrote.

Short version: Stop telling players are wrong for playing in a way that was set up by FFG, accept that the Signature Abilities need a minor fix.

I am not telling anyone they are wrong, but that signature abilities are based on making a career unique, not individual specs.

The Y wing example was interesting because I originally read it at work away from my books. So I looked up the Y wing on wookiepedia and it stated that it had pilot and copilot/gunner stations. So what's the issue I thought? But then went on to read in the books that the second station was relegated to just a gunner station. Personally I think a better fix would be calling the second station a copilot seat as most starfighters are single seaters and most freighters are pilot/copilot seaters. It seems to be the outlier or exception.

I doubt FFG thought much about the Y wing in this instance since as you adequately pointed out in your treatise, most groups will not run into a situation where a player that chose a concept is relegated to a secondary position. Again it is more an outlier situation.

Is this a way they are going in the future, say with Pilot-only Signature Abilities in 'Fly Casual'? Were the Rigger and Gunner specs intended to be secondary specs for someone who started as a Pilot?

I doubt very much you will see a pilot-only signature ability in Fly casual. A signature abiity must enhance the smuggler career, not the pilot spec. Smuggler's can be good pilots, but that is not all they are. Many people focus on this because of Han. Smugglers though are the thieves of Star Wars universe. Any signature abilities will probably enhance their criminalness or grant some extraordinary ability to avoid damage.

And as I've said, and as Jamwes just stated, you can do what you want. Until we have Technician and Engineer signature abilities it may be the next best thing for now.

For what it's worth, my own situation is solvable by the RAW; if the ship is seriously damaged, the Ace/Gunner-Rigger simply takes the driving seat and the Smuggler vacates it, until the danger is over. But that steps on the Pilot's toes more than I'd wish, if that could be avoided.

I don't know why, but that would amuse me. "Get out of the way, you're undoing all my hard work keeping this tub flying."

"Hey!? Who's the pilot here?"

I was musing (no more than that, and not having the book 'til it hits the UK on Tuesday), if it would cause significant problems if I let that PC use Unmatched Survivability without being in the pilot seat, a bit like Scotty for the Enterprise.

This is exactly how I would run Unmatched Survivability. It also reinforces the idea of the crew working together rather than all the non-pilot/gunners standing around watching while they get to have all the fun. So something like that would be fun to include.

I don't have the book, but it's my understanding that the Rigger "Signature Vehicle" talents work the same way, that only the Rigger gets the benifits from talents such as Fancy Paint Job, Tuned Maneuvering Thursters, and Customized Cooling Unit. Which means a Scotty type character who fixes the ship for Kirk/Solo to pilot is not possible for an Ace Rigger with Unmatched Survivability. As written, the concept is limited to a pilot who hot rods their own ship. RAW does not allow for the concept to be for a master mechanic to upgrades a ship for the master pilot. It's a shame it was written this way, but it's noting a simple house rule can fix.

True. I discussed this on the Forum, and most people felt that it was okay to use Rigger Talents to apply to a shared ship, providing the Rigger was a part of the crew.

"This is MY ship, only I can keep her running in premium condition!"

This actually fits the narrative for us perfectly, and gives the crew a reason not to space the Rigger through the airlock.

I guess my question was, could the same apply to a PC with Unmatched Survivability who wasn't the current pilot? It actually feels more of a mechanic or copilot ability to me.

I don't know why, but that would amuse me. "Get out of the way, you're undoing all my hard work keeping this tub flying."

"Hey!? Who's the pilot here?".

Yes, agreed - if the two players in question weren't my most antagonistic individuals. The one playing the Smuggler really wasn't happy with an Ace joining the team (from our AoR game actually). So I worked out a compromise that everyone would be happy with; the Ace was happy to develop non-Pilot talents, and would be a real asset as a gunner and mechanic without taking things away from the Pilot.

As RAW, however... this might have to be the case, which would result in some amusing dialogue if I could keep my two most high-maintenance players under control...

For what it's worth, I've retconned the backstory that the Ace was the original owner of the Krayt Fang before Trex. Of course, the Smuggler now insists it's their ship. The Ace is outraged that the ship is being badly-run by a bunch of criminals.

So yeah, as characters this is a cool situation. However, these particular players have butted heads before, so I'm treading carefully lest I provoke any fragile egos...

This is exactly how I would run Unmatched Survivability. It also reinforces the idea of the crew working together rather than all the non-pilot/gunners standing around watching while they get to have all the fun. So something like that would be fun to include.

This is my thinking too.

I like that space combat isn't just down to the pilot, I like how the mechanic and other characters can pitch in too, and it's both narratively and practically appropriate to see the engineer-type keeping the ship running.

Of course, what's particularly strange is that a Beast Rider who takes Unmatched Survivability to nurse his tauntaun or dewback through the tough times, can also apply it to a freighter (with the right upgrade) even without any Piloting/Space skills!

How about taking the Hired Gun/Demolitionist combo and plopping yourself in the engine room and complaining your signature abilities are no longer applicable. Should we then allow said Hired Gun to be able to use his Unmatched Protection on the whole ship?

But Unmatched Survivability specifies it only affects you, not your ship or buddies or tauntaun.

However - and this is bizarre - your HiredGun/Demolitionist could, by RAW, use Last One Standing because it applies to a 'combat encounter', which (I think?) would also include a ship or vehicle combat. Even though that seems narratively peculiar:

"Haha, what those TIE pilots don't realize is that this morning, I rigged every one of them to explode! Don't ask me how I did it, I just did it! Now, let's press the detonator...! BOOM!"

And what if that Star Destroyer is manned by minions or rivals? Hells, even if there's an Adversary aboard, isn't he going to feel a bit lonely when he loses every minion on board?

(This is probably why Last One Standing requires GM approval...)

With the exception of Fancy Paint Job, all of the Rigger talents modify the signature vehicle itself regardless of which character is operating it.