Still discussing options with the players while I'm waiting for the book to hit these shores... (sigh)

Someone pointed out that both the Signature abilities require the PC to be piloting the ship. Does that screw over a PC who didn't want to be a pilot? Or is taking Ace and not wanting to be a pilot a pointless thing anyway? (Though you can be a Hired Gun who doesn't like guns, and still be amazingly effective in melee, and most other careers offer a very broad spread of abilities).

The Signature abilities for other careers seem broader, most not requiring a specific role to function (Marauders can use Last Man Standing just as well as the gun bunnies for example).

So essentially the Ace signature abilities aren't much use to - say - a Rigger who mostly serves as a mechanic or gunner or co-pilot in a Chewbacca role?

Or a Beast Rider, since none of these relate to riding animals, just vehicles? (same goes for Rigger - there doesn't seem to be any way to 'Pimp My Tauntaun'?)

Or an astromech, who by nature of sheer logistics, is stuck in a socket and can never be the 'pilot'?

Let's say our plucky astromech is in a snubfighter with his meatbag buddy in the cockpit. He's mostly a Rigger or Gunner, his buddy does the flying. The ship is getting beat up in a dogfight, the astromech has the Signature abilities and wants to use them - but he's not the pilot.

So can the trashcan and the meatbag 'switch roles' without physically moving?

"Okay R2, I'm giving piloting controls to you, little guy! Save our asses!"'

Or does he physically need to climb out of the socket, trundle up to the cockpit where he forcibly ejects the human pilot? "Beep beep bloop! (Translation: Okay, meatbag, you're done! I'm saving this ship!)"

Am I misreading this (not having the book) or are the Signature Abilities far less broad than the existing ones? Seeing as how the mildest bookworm Scholar or the toughest Marshal or even a Force-sensitive Exile Colonist can make equal use of Unmatched Expertise?

Ace Signature Abilities do apply to riding animals. Astromechs who are in connected to a socket have the full abilities that the pilot does as well as more (since they're hooked into the various systems); so for all intents and purposes an Astromech and normal pilot in an X-Wing, for example, are both considered pilots (and can thus do things like perform a pilot-only ship maneuver each to avoid personal strain).

But yes, while Signature Abilities are a little more restrictive than other ones (requiring piloting/driving/riding), you really shouldn't be starting in Ace unless you plan on being a driver (3 of the 5 specializations' talents really only give benefits if you're the one driving something as well).

So really the only characters possibly losing out on the Signature Abilities' benefits are players who make characters that are Gunners who only shoot stuff (only staying in a turret and never piloting a starfighter for instance) and Riggers who aren't astromechs to be shoved into a socket or are otherwise not normal pilots (and instead want to be a ship engineer or something). In the latter case they might be better off picking something like Engineer/Mechanic and going into Rigger later; the former... they just kind of get screwed regardless since the closest equivalent would be starting as a Soldier/Sharpshooter and then going into Gunner.

I think that if a PC is taking the Ace career, they are pretty much saying "I want to be involved in piloting a vehice." Even the Gunner spec has elements related to actually flying a craft (though mostly from the Ace's list of career skills). Beast Rider is focused on being just that, but at least there is a sidebar saying the signature abilities work with creature mounts and not just ships.

I think another element to consider is that not every signature ability is going to be universally useful for all specializations. Sudden Discovery in Enter the Unknown is of fairly limited use to an Explorer/Driver, and there's probably not a whole lot of Colonist/Performers making a beeline for Insightful Revelation.

there doesn't seem to be any way to 'Pimp My Tauntaun'?)

Just how many hardpoints does a tauntaun have anyway? Wait, I don't want to know.

Beast Rider is focused on being just that, but at least there is a sidebar saying the signature abilities work with creature mounts and not just ships.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks - not having the book yet, I was wondering how specific 'vehicle' had to be. I could see a Beast Rider keeping his mount alive a bit longer with some extra effort.

Just how many hardpoints does a tauntaun have anyway? Wait, I don't want to know.

I guess we could use 'Hidden Compartment' on it, assuming it's dead...?

I think another element to consider is that not every signature ability is going to be universally useful for all specializations. Sudden Discovery in Enter the Unknown is of fairly limited use to an Explorer/Driver, and there's probably not a whole lot of Colonist/Performers making a beeline for Insightful Revelation.

Agreed Donovan, but each of the other Specializations has at least one Signature ability that's useful to anyone, like the 'Unmatched' version for both Explorer and Colonist. This is the first career that's doesn't have a Signature ability that would help, say, a dedicated Gunner or Rigger.

I suppose that character could take over piloting duties in extremis; might even be a use for 'Let's Ride' there to quickly swap chairs.

Well signature abilities are based on careers, not specs. Both abilities are useful to gunners and riggers both only if they are the actual pilots. Which is why they are the abilities of the pilot career.

Now all that being said, a copilot or dedicated astromech can take over pilot duties at any time due to circumstances. So a disabled x-wing's pilot could pass piloting duties to his rigger/astromech ("Take over and keep this bird going" enacting the Unmatched Survivabilty signature ability) while the pilot focuses on taking out the enemy or fending them off or supporting the droid as a copilot himself. Or maybe his copilot is a better gunner so he passes the stick so the copilot can go mano a mano using This One is Mine.

I don't have a copy yet either, so I haven't read the exact wording. However, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to explain away Unmatched Survivability as a ship's engineer struggling to hold it together, or even a gunner frantically rerouting power feeds near his turret. If it takes up some of the PC's actions to trigger the ability, then he's not firing because he disconnected his guns to give the rest of the ship a little more juice.

This One Is Mine may be a little tougher, but it could still be a crewmember taking advantage of some of the ship's systems or the battlefield to isolate an opponent. Using tractor beams on asteroids or debris, angling deflector shields, having other gunners lay down a flak barrage, etc.

I don't have a copy yet either, so I haven't read the exact wording. However, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to explain away Unmatched Survivability as a ship's engineer struggling to hold it together, or even a gunner frantically rerouting power feeds near his turret. If it takes up some of the PC's actions to trigger the ability, then he's not firing because he disconnected his guns to give the rest of the ship a little more juice.

This One Is Mine may be a little tougher, but it could still be a crewmember taking advantage of some of the ship's systems or the battlefield to isolate an opponent. Using tractor beams on asteroids or debris, angling deflector shields, having other gunners lay down a flak barrage, etc.

The issue is less with the narrative aspect, and more with the mechanical aspect, where both Signature Abilities are restricted to "when piloting a ship or vehicle" (or riding a beast), which unless houseruled as being okay, restricts use to people only in pilot/co-pilot/astromech slot positions on a ship.

Well signature abilities are based on careers, not specs. Both abilities are useful to gunners and riggers both only if they are the actual pilots. Which is why they are the abilities of the pilot career.

But there's no such thing as a 'Pilot career'. Pilot is a specialization, for the Smuggler and Ace careers.

A Hired Gun isn't required to take a Ranged skill to a) be effective in the game or b) make use of Signature abilities. But an Ace has to be built a certain way to make use of their Signature abilities. And that feels off.

But there's no such thing as a 'Pilot career'. Pilot is a specialization, for the Smuggler and Ace careers.

A Hired Gun isn't required to take a Ranged skill to a) be effective in the game or b) make use of Signature abilities. But an Ace has to be built a certain way to make use of their Signature abilities. And that feels off.

Ace is all about flying, driving and/or riding vehicles/beasts. That is what I mean about it being the "pilot" career. The presumption for the signature abilities is that your ace will be the pilot. I think if you do not want to be the pilot but just a great mechanic, you should wait for the Technician or Engineer books. They will probably have what you are looking for in some kind of signature ability to keep something going there.

I can well imagine that many people are itching for all the career books, but we have to be patient while they are being released.

In mouthymerc's defense, there are some specializations, even within the core books that very much fit into "secondary" specializations (I'm looking at you Fringer, and half of the Explorer specs). I can't say that this is the design intent, but it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine the Gunner and Rigger as secondary specs to the Ace's main shtick: Piloting.

I admit it's still a stretch to assume that all Ace's will be the pilots, but that does seem to be the intent of the career. A Gunner could be "Yeah I'm a pilot, but I can also bullseye a womp rat from several kilometers." and the Rigger is "I'm a pilot, but I've learned how to make my fighter sing."

With all that being said, I would have no problem allowing Unmatched Survivability in my games if the Ace was the ship's mechanic. No need to make it just be the pilot.

Agreed. MM is correct by the RAW, I'm not disputing that. It's just that this is first set of Signature abilities that are so narrow, and it doesn't really make thematic sense.

(and I completely agree that Fringer and Scout are intended as secondary Specs)

Unmatched Survivability for the Rigger was exactly what I was mulling over. It's kind of like having a Chewbacca or Scotty character use it on the Falcon or the Enterprise. I won't bore you with the details, but it's a tricky situation between the longest running PC (who is a Smuggler/Pilot) and the newest PC (who is an Ace/Gunner now turned Rigger and the original owner of the ship). Having discussed this with the people involved, I didn't want the new character to tread too much on the older one's toes, so the player was happy to build the new one as a mechanic, co-pilot, and tailgunner rather than a Pilot. In terms of the movies, what Chewbacca was to Lando after Empire Strikes Back.

Just how many hardpoints does a tauntaun have anyway? Wait, I don't want to know.

I guess we could use 'Hidden Compartment' on it, assuming it's dead...?

Have you seen the movie Blood Diamond? In one scene to smuggle diamonds they had surgically implanted diamonds under the goat's skin. That's totally a "Hidden Compartment" but might need some ranks in Medicine to properly use. That is, if you care about the well being of the animal.

I think another element to consider is that not every signature ability is going to be universally useful for all specializations. Sudden Discovery in Enter the Unknown is of fairly limited use to an Explorer/Driver, and there's probably not a whole lot of Colonist/Performers making a beeline for Insightful Revelation.

Agreed Donovan, but each of the other Specializations has at least one Signature ability that's useful to anyone, like the 'Unmatched' version for both Explorer and Colonist. This is the first career that's doesn't have a Signature ability that would help, say, a dedicated Gunner or Rigger.

I suppose that character could take over piloting duties in extremis; might even be a use for 'Let's Ride' there to quickly swap chairs.

Beg to differ, unless you're stuck with some very unimaginative players or the GM is doing a lousy job of setting up encounters to allow those PCs to make use of their talents.

This One is Mine is good for a Gunner (who as part of the Ace career is just as much of a pilot as the Pilot or Hotshot specs), as it helps them "lock down" a tougher opponent so that they can blast away with some impunity as they don't have to worry about other enemy ships, and with the Evasion Upgrades the one ship that can attack them has a rougher time of doing so.

Unmatched Survivability is good for any spec that's at the controls. If you've got a Gunner or Rigger that has deliberately removed themselves from the cockpit, that's the player's willful decision to limit a key aspect of their base career, which is all about being a pilot. It'd be akin to playing a Hired Gun that doesn't make use of combat skills and then whining about how several talents in each of the Hired Gun specs are useless to them.

Beg to differ, unless you're stuck with some very unimaginative players or the GM is doing a lousy job of setting up encounters to allow those PCs to make use of their talents.

This One is Mine is good for a Gunner (who as part of the Ace career is just as much of a pilot as the Pilot or Hotshot specs), as it helps them "lock down" a tougher opponent so that they can blast away with some impunity as they don't have to worry about other enemy ships, and with the Evasion Upgrades the one ship that can attack them has a rougher time of doing so.

Unmatched Survivability is good for any spec that's at the controls. If you've got a Gunner or Rigger that has deliberately removed themselves from the cockpit, that's the player's willful decision to limit a key aspect of their base career, which is all about being a pilot. It'd be akin to playing a Hired Gun that doesn't make use of combat skills and then whining about how several talents in each of the Hired Gun specs are useless to them.

The thing is, is that per RAW, the Signature Ability ONLY works for people in piloting positions. So if you were running a Y-Wing campaign, a Gunner/Rigger-specced Gunner/Sensor operator in the backseat of the BTL-S3 technically can't use any of the signature abilities. Only the person in the pilot seat or an astromech player in the droid socket.

That being said, I'd recommend just houseruling that both of the Ace Signature Abilities simply need a PC to be in a vehicle/starship to be able to use them, with any player attempting to use them while not in a piloting position needing to properly explain how they're capable of doing this with GM approval. That puts it in line with Dangerous Covenants/Hired Gun's Last One Standing in expanding the use to applying regardless of position, but also restricts a certain level of abuse (players can't hang out in their sleeping quarters and try triggering Unmatched Survivability). I'd also recommend that FFG consider errata'ing something similar in.

What Lathrop said.

To me, Donovan, it feels like Last Man Standing and Unmatched Protection specifying that you need to be wielding a firearm to use them. And saying to the Marauder or Enforcer, 'quit whining, there's nothing stopping you using a gun'.

But YMMV and I'm not interested in tussling with you.

Playtesting the material, I whole-heartedly agreed that the Ace specialty was all about using vehicles/beasts. In my EotE games I found that so much of it happened on foot upon a planet/space station's surface. The Ace material really rewards players entering ship to ship combat, something AoR campaigns could easily focus more on as Rebels are more likely to have access to fighters than a group of smugglers in heavy debt to a Hutt.

It gave my players a whole new concept of the game as ship combat rules were basically not needed in my campaigns as they tended to flee at the slightest sign of a possible ship combat scenario.

Every Signature Ability is restricted in some way and defines the class. If you don't like that Ace's are the fliers/fighters then perhaps choose a different class instead of house ruling the Ace to be something they aren't?

The Ace is your Rogue Leader, the one you rely on to blow up the death star and take the brunt of the fighting. The Ace being the flying class is really cool, having a skill tree dedicated to modding and customizing a ship to your character's liking is even cooler. Then rewarding that player's investment in a space craft with extra bonuses during ship combat? Even sweeter.

You could say the Hired Gun is all about guns. The clue is in the name. And yet, you can easily make an effective Brawl or Melee character with no points in Ranged skills. And who gets to use his Career's Signature abilities.

So if the Ace is ALL about being a Pilot, why did they give us Specialisations that let them mod out their craft and have mechanical talents, or be good at Gunnery (which works as well on foot as it does in a vehicle).

Or ride beasts. Can't see anyone blowing up any Death Stars on the back of a tauntaun.

Every Signature Ability is restricted in some way and defines the class. If you don't like that Ace's are the fliers/fighters then perhaps choose a different class instead of house ruling the Ace to be something they aren't?

The houseruling I suggest still restricts the Signature Ability to use on vehicles/mounts/ships during combat, it in no way tries changing what Aces are - it just slightly ups the usability for when an Ace isn't going to have access to a pilot seat. The Y-Wing example I gave for instance, it allows the Gunner (a specialization ONLY in Ace at the moment with no real parallels in other specializations) to be able to still use Signature Abilities - he would just need to properly give a narrative explanation.

As is? Well, as another example, if you're a non-Astromech Rigger who knows every inch of the Y-Wing and mans the Gunner seat, you can't use Unmatched Survivability to keep the ship lasting a little longer just because you don't have access to flight controls.

I would expect that the Rigger spec will end up in the Technician career book, if not the Engineer one, but more likely the Technician. If you have a player that created an Ace character that focuses on being a mechanic instead of a pilot that's a mechanic then maybe he should rethink his character as Tech and wait for the Technician book. As I said, the Ace career presupposes that you are the pilot of whatever vehicle you are in as unlike other careers it is a fairly focused concept. Or make sure there are co-pilot seats or an astromech slot whatever is needed if he is not going to be the primary flyer.

I think Rigger might show up in Technician, or possibly even Bounty Hunter (as the Gadgeteer concept adapted to starships). I'm pretty sure it wont show up in Engineer, as they don't seem to duplicate specs in the same line.

As I said, the Ace career presupposes that you are the pilot of whatever vehicle you are in as unlike other careers it is a fairly focused concept. Or make sure there are co-pilot seats or an astromech slot whatever is needed if he is not going to be the primary flyer.

That's the first career to do that then, because it's perfectly fine to have a Colonist who's a diplomat or a kloo horn player without needing to become a gunslinger cop. You can have a perfectly valid Hired Gun who isn't shooty, and can still use their Signature abilities.

Why does Ace even offer the non-piloting specs then if they're only meant to be 'prestige classes' for a pilot? Up until now, most Specs can stand on their own.

I'd be interested to see if this is where FFG is going. The career splatbooks have all introduced at least one Spec that steps outside the career a little. The Colonist/Marshal or Explorer/BGH allow you to have a more combat-focused character, without leaving your career or outshining the Hired Guns. Hired Gun had Demolitionist, which offers stuff like Mechanics and Computer that most HGs don't have.

And yet, all these Specs can still happily benefit from the Signature abilities; the Demolitionist can narrate that he's using bombs or grenades for Last Man Standing, for example.

Maybe Keith or someone who worked on the Specs can clarify - was this an intentional design to restrict the Signature abilities to a few Specs, with the intention that Riggers and Gunners were meant to be second or third Specs?

Another thing that seems odd about the whole situation is if a character wants to make a dedicated Beast Rider. Presumably he should start out as an Ace Beast Rider. The signature abilities work fine for him, but all the other specs in his career are made up of at least half useless talents.