Yeah, this would have saved me a whole ton of time scraping listjuggler and running it all through excel for my recent blog! I'm encouraged that my sample doesn't look unrepresentative of the larger whole, though.

I have a question for @haslo : nothing seems to have a win/loss rate >50%, which surely can't be right? Or am I misinterpreting what that % is showing me?

20 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I have a question for @haslo : nothing seems to have a win/loss rate >50%, which surely can't be right? Or am I misinterpreting what that % is showing me?

Yeah, I don't entirely trust that stat yet either. I plan to add a link that shows all the matches that go into that value (for verification and out of interest). But I think it could be right after all, because many matches were probably played against less-represented archetypes.

Edit: There's a few really high win/loss ratios (up to 100%) if you adjust the filters to not take quantity into account at all:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?large_tournament_multiplier=false&widespread_use_multiplier=false

But again, I'll have to take a proper look at all the calculations. The site is currently in something like a public beta

9 minutes ago, haslo said:

Yeah, I don't entirely trust that stat yet either. I plan to add a link that shows all the matches that go into that value (for verification and out of interest). But I think it could be right after all, because many matches were probably played against less-represented archetypes.

Edit: There's a few really high win/loss ratios (up to 100%) if you adjust the filters to not take quantity into account at all:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?large_tournament_multiplier=false&widespread_use_multiplier=false

Maybe, but the outcome of that line of thinking is that if you play a non-meta list you'll almost always beat a meta list (by definition if all the meta lists are <50% then all the random **** must be doing really well). I'm not sure I buy that.

Is the win % going into the Magic ranking system? If it's suspect it could be better to leave it out.

49 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Is the win % going into the Magic ranking system? If it's suspect it could be better to leave it out.

It doesn't go into the Magic system, no. I added percentiles first and only calculated win/loss rates later, but the prime reason is that win/loss rates mostly have such small sample rates that they're inherently much less relevant than percentiles. Most TOs enter all standings. Some TOs enter just the top standings, and just a few TOs enter all matches, too - particularly for larger tournaments, which are arguably more interesting, they're almost never entered because it's so much data.

Something that was in your blog post that I thought about adding, by the way, was percentage of ships (and there was also the whole wave breakdown that I currently don't do at all). I do have the percentage of squadrons with at least one of a ships (something I have to still verify, too, because I don't trust those numbers yet), but not the total percentage of ships. Maybe some time, it's an interesting number as well, particularly for something like TIE Defenders.

One thing that I like in your system at the moment is being able to filter for Swiss/Cut but I think it would be better to present something like that next to each other on a page. It's very similar to my 'Progressed %' which I found was actually quite insightful.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

One thing that I like in your system at the moment is being able to filter for Swiss/Cut but I think it would be better to present something like that next to each other on a page. It's very similar to my 'Progressed %' which I found was actually quite insightful.

If you have a good idea for presentation of this data, I'm all ears. I agree, it's really interesting.

Just trying to wrassle it all into excel to play with, but as it all comes out with 200+ pilot pictures it's giving my poor computer a hard time... I'll get there.

For some reason just dumbly copy/pasting the tables seems to bring them out in very different formats depending on if I'm filtering Swiss or Cut :-/

There will be a JSON API at some point, for much easier digestion and further analysis. There isn't anything like that now yet though, sorry

Early days!

20 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I have a question for @haslo : nothing seems to have a win/loss rate >50%, which surely can't be right? Or am I misinterpreting what that % is showing me?

I digged into this tonight, and it calculates what I tell it to calculate correctly, which leads to unexpected results:

Win/loss ratios are always the average of all win/loss ratios of people playing this archetype. So if one player won the top 8 cut (3 games, 100%) and two players dropped in the first round of the cut (1 game each, 0%), the average win/loss ratio for the cut is 33% (3 players with 0%, 0% and 100% => 100/3%).

That's unexpected and has to change; it's an error in my spec. What's needed is a weighted average instead.

Good news, there'll also be the aforementioned game list the next time I do a mini-release. It's sort of working by now on my dev machine; it's what I used to analyze the results.

That makes sense!

When I was trying to digest your data and use it one other thing that I'd prefer to see is that when you filter from Swiss to Cut the number of squads/tournaments doesn't change - that's obviously drawing from the total pool of results before it's filtered. Knowing "there was X incidences of this squad/pilot and Y made it into the cut" would be a useful statistic.

As listjuggler tends to be far more populated with Top 8 lists than whole tournaments I think it's a useful thing to have transparent. People might feel they're looking at all lists played when in reality it's still heavily weighted towards lists in cuts.

And, just occured to me, does your 'cut' shrink as tournaments get smaller or is it just 'the Top 8'? Like, if an 8-man tournament goes into the records do all 8 lists count as the cut?

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And, just occured to me, does your 'cut' shrink as tournaments get smaller or is it just 'the Top 8'? Like, if an 8-man tournament goes into the records do all 8 lists count as the cut?

Lists Juggler allows for TOs to enter Swiss rankings and Elimination rankings. I look at how many elimination rankings there are, and the percentile is "percent of total elimination rankings for this tournament". All the lists that got an Elimination ranking count as having made the cut, whether it's 4 or 8 or 16 ... or 13. (That's actually the case occasionally, which is why some squads have got a negative elimination percentile when they're ranked as "16th of 13". Garbage in garbage out.)

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

When I was trying to digest your data and use it one other thing that I'd prefer to see is that when you filter from Swiss to Cut the number of squads/tournaments doesn't change - that's obviously drawing from the total pool of results before it's filtered. Knowing "there was X incidences of this squad/pilot and Y made it into the cut" would be a useful statistic.

Gee. Yeah. Another thing about the percentages next to those numbers is that they take into account all the tournaments, even those who haven't entered any data at all. Many TOs enter just a few lists, which skews the numbers of course, but I am working on making that percentage more meaningful (and also adding a tooltip that says exactly what it calculates).

Having gone through a lot of it for my blog I know what you're dealing with. It's far from an exhaustive source, but that's why I think it's best to be quite clear about what's NOT there as well as what is there, so people can make judgements.

Wave 11 is ready to go in List Juggler. Oh, a few weeks ago I significantly speed up the page loader for the tourneys paged (by implementing server side paging ... we finally hit the point where we'd had enough tournaments to make performance an issue!)

Oh, and FFG continues to totally appreciate and value our work of crowdsourcing the data! From a fan:

Quote

I am listening to the recent interview with the developers by Gamasutra . at the 36:00 I had to do a mental facepalm

Max Brooks: "the way lists propagate isn't necessarily the way build paths are propagated in {some other game type} because data isn't aggregated to the same degree."

Hey Sozin, just a heads up, looks like list juggler will not allow me to submit a list containing Scum Captain Nym - all other Scum Scurrgs appear to not have the issue. When I click the submit button, it just clicks and doesn't go anywhere. If I remove Nym, I can submit as normal.

Hi Sozin, thanks for the great work. the export to csv option for specific tourney results is not appearing on the browse tourney page anymore. has that feature been removed?

Ok, I really haven't updated this for a LONG TIME. I'm sorry! I did just make a breaking change for anyone who who uses the CSV exports.

There are way more column headers possible now. Here are the new column headers for folks using CSV export:

Tourney,tourneyType,tourneyDate,player,FACTION,points,swiss_standing,elim_standing,listId,Ship,Pilot,Elite.1,Elite.2,Title,Crew.1,Crew.2,Crew.3,Astromech,System,Modification.1,Modification.2,Modification.3,Cannon.1,Cannon.2,Missile.1,Missile.2,Torpedo.1,Torpedo.2,Bomb.1,Bomb.2,Bomb.3,Bomb.4,Turret,Tech.1,Tech.2,Salvaged Astromech,Illicit.1,Illicit.2

Cheers

Rolled out another breaking change here. Each upgrade column is now two columns: the upgrade name and the canon name:

@Tbetts94 asked me to add a video url field to tournaments so people can stash twitch or youtube (or wherever) links to their tournaments/venue home page. You can add that now in tournament creation (either via the web page or via the RESTful interface ), or you can edit it when you edit a tourney's details. It'll show up in the tourney results page as well for people to click on. I didn't add it to the main browse tourneys page of the site because I'm already short on column space, happy to try to squeeze it in though of folks think I should.

Cheers

Won a tournament with Captain Jostero, my TO said that he could not find it on juggler, is it right?

Sounds wrong. I will check, congrats btw

@Flaren48 yep it was a bug. I incorrectly had jostero typed is a kihraxz and not a starviper. This has been fixed, he (or you) should be able to import or manually enter the list. please tell him thank you for me! and you win the Captain Jostero Bug Squashed award :-)

Any chance we can get more regional symbols to work when editing names?

Such as ÅÄÖ and other language based ones.

It's still counted as a Starviper, but it is a Kihraxz! Before, it wasn't in the kihraxz pilots list