I'd say it more performs like a Bishop (3/3.5pts), but is priced like a Rook(5pts). It's not in a bad spot, and you can certainly have success with it. But it is a bit overcosted.

The compounding problem is this:

For the points you have to pay for a Defender (30-50 points), it needs to be the centerpiece of your list. It needs to be the thing that every other ship on your side is supporting, either by distracting your opponent, or adding damage to the Defender's attack. The Empire simply has better options for that.

Keeping its Centerpiece status in mind, it really shouldn't ever have an ion cannon. And its unique dial means it will have a hard time flying in formation to allow it to be supported. A good Fel or Whisper can stay out of its arcs. It ought to be a good match against a Fat Han*, especially if the Defender takes an HLC.

So that's where I see the Defender. A good ship that doesn't quite fit into a great list. A good list? Yes. But not a great list. It doesn't need a price break, or a power buff. It does need _something_ only it can do, in a way that benefits a few other ships.

That's why I like any ideas that let it add an ion/stress effect to its basic shots. We don't really have any board control centerpieces, and the Defender would make a nice one.

*I need to open a Chinese restaurant called "Fat Han's".

All this "pseudo-Interceptor" stuff is part of the reason why a different tweak would be better.

Give it a modification: Integrated Cannons. TIE Defender only. 0 points. When you equip a cannon upgrade, reduce its cost by 3 points, to a minimum of 0.

This lets them roll with their stock Ion Cannons for free, or a HLC for 4 points. The whole host of new cannon upgrades in Scum would suddenly start to look a lot more interesting for the Defender, as well. Plus, it takes a Modification slot, usually a very valuable one, so it'd be balanced pretty nicely with opportunity cost.

Alternatively, make it a title and reduce the point savings for cannons, thus freeing up the mod slot but making it less potent.

This would make the Defender a dedicated cannon platform, which is what it's usually used for anyway, and would allow for the canon cannon loadout (integrated ion cannons) for free.

Other suggestions, such as the ability to fire a primary attack and a secondary attack at the same time, also accomplish much the same thing, and are by no means ways of making the Defender into a pumped-up Interceptor.

Yeah, the issue isn't the dial. Some have asked for a better one but I think there is an equal amount that would rather have the change made to its relationship with cannons.

Yeah, the issue isn't the dial. Some have asked for a better one but I think there is an equal amount that would rather have the change made to its relationship with cannons.

I agree in so much as the dial isn't the issue if the Defender had something to make up for it. Currently, it falls jussssstt short. And i agree that anything that changes for the Defender should reward the "Boom and Zoom" style play i mentioned earlier. Make a pass, devastate your target, then spend a turn or two outrunning and evading, and then reset. That would make a very cool and very interesting ship, that currently doesn't exist.

The compounding problem is this:

For the points you have to pay for a Defender (30-50 points), it needs to be the centerpiece of your list. It needs to be the thing that every other ship on your side is supporting, either by distracting your opponent, or adding damage to the Defender's attack. The Empire simply has better options for that.

Keeping its Centerpiece status in mind, it really shouldn't ever have an ion cannon. And its unique dial means it will have a hard time flying in formation to allow it to be supported. A good Fel or Whisper can stay out of its arcs. It ought to be a good match against a Fat Han*, especially if the Defender takes an HLC.

So that's where I see the Defender. A good ship that doesn't quite fit into a great list. A good list? Yes. But not a great list. It doesn't need a price break, or a power buff. It does need _something_ only it can do, in a way that benefits a few other ships.

That's why I like any ideas that let it add an ion/stress effect to its basic shots. We don't really have any board control centerpieces, and the Defender would make a nice one

All this "pseudo-Interceptor" stuff is part of the reason why a different tweak would be better.

Give it a modification: Integrated Cannons. TIE Defender only. 0 points. When you equip a cannon upgrade, reduce its cost by 3 points, to a minimum of 0.

This lets them roll with their stock Ion Cannons for free, or a HLC for 4 points. The whole host of new cannon upgrades in Scum would suddenly start to look a lot more interesting for the Defender, as well. Plus, it takes a Modification slot, usually a very valuable one, so it'd be balanced pretty nicely with opportunity cost.

Alternatively, make it a title and reduce the point savings for cannons, thus freeing up the mod slot but making it less potent.

This would make the Defender a dedicated cannon platform, which is what it's usually used for anyway, and would allow for the canon cannon loadout (integrated ion cannons) for free.

Other suggestions, such as the ability to fire a primary attack and a secondary attack at the same time, also accomplish much the same thing, and are by no means ways of making the Defender into a pumped-up Interceptor.

I agree 100%, these types of changes make the ship feel more like something totally different than just a superceptor. They put additional focus on raw firepower and jousting (which i thought was the main theme of the ship anyway) instead of arc dodging

And punning pundits statement about the pts cost of the ship and how the defender works in list building is also very true.

Your basically paying the price for a large base ship but not getting the same dominating table presence that you would with a YT, a named phantom, or a decimator.

I also would like to point out that i think many of us that are for a defender 'fix' arent looking for something extreme to immediately boost the defender to the number 1 spot in every tournament but a smaller tweak that would help bring a slightly overcosted ship in line with its points.

For those of you who are inclined to believe that the Defender is too expensive, or is not competitive; I ask how many times you've played with one at a competitive level or how many friendly games you've played with them.

The Defender is fantastic. Spend more time with it and it will reward you in game.

Since you asked, here are my answers:

How many times played: 20+ games

How many times at competitive level - Store Championships and a local tourney. Almost brought it to Worlds but chose the Firespray instead for its HP (because I can't roll green dice).

I know you weren't (at least I hope you weren't ) aiming the "spend more time" comment at me, since I love the ship, fly it quite a bit, and do decently well with it. But ultimately, I was trying to create a thread about making the Defender even more of what it is and not changing it into a powerful interceptor or TIE or phantom. But alas, the thread got jacked.

Love the suggestions about:

- Ion effect

- Making it more of an cannon platform than it already is

- Adding EPT to generic pilots

- 3 Bank -> white Segnor's Loop (this one wins my vote)

- Regen shields with action (the "gun and run" jouster role)

For those of you who are inclined to believe that the Defender is too expensive, or is not competitive; I ask how many times you've played with one at a competitive level or how many friendly games you've played with them.

The Defender is fantastic. Spend more time with it and it will reward you in game.

Since you asked, here are my answers:

How many times played: 20+ games

How many times at competitive level - Store Championships and a local tourney. Almost brought it to Worlds but chose the Firespray instead for its HP (because I can't roll green dice).

I know you weren't (at least I hope you weren't ) aiming the "spend more time" comment at me, since I love the ship, fly it quite a bit, and do decently well with it. But ultimately, I was trying to create a thread about making the Defender even more of what it is and not changing it into a powerful interceptor or TIE or phantom. But alas, the thread got jacked.

Love the suggestions about:

- Ion effect

- Making it more of an cannon platform than it already is

- Adding EPT to generic pilots

- 3 Bank -> white Segnor's Loop (this one wins my vote)

- Regen shields with action (the "gun and run" jouster role)

I like the idea of segnor's loop on the defender too. Maneuverability is who the imperials are best at and having access to a ship with segnor's loop especially on the defender which is suppose to be the best tie skirmish fighter ever makes sense.

Keeping its Centerpiece status in mind, it really shouldn't ever have an ion cannon. And its unique dial means it will have a hard time flying in formation to allow it to be supported. A good Fel or Whisper can stay out of its arcs. It ought to be a good match against a Fat Han*, especially if the Defender takes an HLC.

Concerning flying in formation, I would like to point out that the bomber fly very well with it (Jonus with 2 Delta and HLC classic or Vessery with 4 Bomber) and the Tie Advanced dial is REALLY similar to it so, once the Tie Advanced fix comes out, I plan to try Vessery with 2-3 Advanced.

The dial is really not bad and can be rewarding. BUT. I agree that it has its limitation and force the player to think outside the box and plan his moves 2-3 turns ahead: Set yourself for what your dial allows you to do (This is not a ship made for players getting into the game, they will get eaten). You KNOW the hard 1 and 2 are red so try to avoid situations where you need those maneuvers. Slow play a little (range is your friend with a cannon and 3 agility) and plan ahead for the 3 if you want to do a hard next turn, and reposition with barrel roll when needed. K-Turn 4 is predicatable but it is white, so if you get blocked this turn, you can do it next turn and good chances are your gonna be in range 3 (your best friend), so unless all your opponent force was aiming at you, it is not that bad (still, try to avoid those situations). And when all else fail and you do get stressed (by doing a red or uncontroled reasons like flechette torpedoes), you can get the hell out by doing a 5 and come back next turn OR you can stay in the fight one or two more turns, you don't HAVE to clear stress as soon as you get it: 3 Agi, 3 Hull, 3 Shield can handle a bad round of shooting. Plan accordingly. If your opponent expect you to get away, a little 1 bank can get you a free shot before going away next turn.

Is this ship an easy mode? Certainly not. It has his limitations and I can understand why some have a problem with it. For the same points you can get ships more forgiving that require less planing to make good use of. But it is rewarding. My friends won't play it, but they also hate to see it on the board: his predictability forces me to think differently, so the ship become unpredictable. Forget the obvious, do the unexpected; Think outside the box. Get your A game out. This ship was flown only by the best? Well, be the best yourself and fly it.

Phantoms and turrets are for rookies, be the man and fly a Defender!

PS: This post was not directed at you Punning, it just happened that your quote triggered my answer.

I like the idea of the Onyx getting an EPT. Why does Black and Green get this love and none of the other high class unnamed?

I think FFGs intention at that time was to get players to move away from genetics. I think they did it so we'd need to take a named pilots to get an EPT. Same for the E Wing.

Keeping its Centerpiece status in mind, it really shouldn't ever have an ion cannon. And its unique dial means it will have a hard time flying in formation to allow it to be supported. A good Fel or Whisper can stay out of its arcs. It ought to be a good match against a Fat Han*, especially if the Defender takes an HLC.

Concerning flying in formation, I would like to point out that the bomber fly very well with it (Jonus with 2 Delta and HLC classic or Vessery with 4 Bomber) and the Tie Advanced dial is REALLY similar to it so, once the Tie Advanced fix comes out, I plan to try Vessery with 2-3 Advanced.

PS: This post was not directed at you Punning, it just happened that your quote triggered my answer.

Fair enough. To my way of thinking, the Imperial Command Shuttle (Jendon + Fleet Officer + weapons engineer and maybe ST-321) is the classic Imperial support. And a Defender is going to have a hard time being effective, _and_ at range 1/2 of a Lambda. Granted Vessary doesn't need to actually be passed the TL from Jendon to make use of it.

I am actually a huge fan of the Defender dial. It's unique, with a rather interesting set of decisions that go into using it. But it does present challenges.

Concerning flying in formation, I would like to point out that the bomber fly very well with it (Jonus with 2 Delta and HLC classic or Vessery with 4 Bomber) and the Tie Advanced dial is REALLY similar to it so, once the Tie Advanced fix comes out, I plan to try Vessery with 2-3 Advanced.

Yeah, did that in a proxy game with the Advanced fix. Played Vader, Vessery (with HLC), and Backstabber. OMG Vader with Vessery is awesome...

I'm not usually one for wanting fixes on ships, but the Defender does find itself in an awkward position. I love the design (have done since TIE Fighter) and want to include one in my squads. But it never quite seems to justify it's cost in the same way an Interceptor, Phantom, Firespray or even a Lambda do. I end up cutting other units down to fit in, especially if I want HLC on it.

So the cannon points change sounds good to me.

I don't think the dial needs changing from my experience of using it. Sure it can be predictable, but it's your job as the pilot not to be.

If you want to make them better. It's simple.

All Tie Defenders are flown by the most experienced Pilots Only, They should all have an Elite Pilot Slot.

Maybe replace the missile upgrade with Elite Pilot Slot, or add a title that gives it. Because, all of the pilots to fly the defender as the best the empire has to offer and had to survive 20 missions in a basic tie, then prove themselves in a flight simulator against terrible odds.

If you give them all a EPT for 0 points, that goes along way to fixing them.

I never really understood why the Defender would have a PS 1 pilot when only the best would be flying it. And I would have to agree, they should all have at least an EPT!

For pilot skill, Alex told me an some others at worlds, that a Defender PS=1 was different than another PS=1 ship, even though in game terms they are the same. So I guess a 1 PS defender pilot is a rookie defender pilot as hasn't figured out how to use his new ship yet to it's fullest potential. However, he still has 20 missions previously, so IMO he should have an EPT.

But I totally agree all defenders should have at least 1 ept, but 2 would be cool. Like the Royal Guard Title, but instead of two modifications, up to two EPT's.

title:

0 pts

Best of the Best

Each defender pilot gains 1 EPT, if he has a pilot skill of 3 or more he can gain 2.

Well, as long as there is a reason behind a PS 1 Defender that's fine. Thanks for the 411.