People who think the green K turn would somehow shatter the earth with it's overpoweredness aren't going to be worth listening to, honestly. They aren't good enough at the game to know what's going on.

Things that are really really good in X wing:

Big turret ships

Phantoms

12 point ships

Things that don't care if a ship can green K-turn:

Big turret ships

Phantoms

Things that will block a green K-turn, turning it into a green straight with no action:

12 point ships

Make the K turn green if you want, it won't matter. For the points a loaded defender costs it wouldn't be OP if the whole dial was green. It would be thematic too.

Yeah, no. Saying that making the k-turn green would fix the Defender is about as valid as saying the green k-turn would be overpowered. I don't like the green k-turn because it would opens up the debate for white k-turns being more accessible. The White K-turn is pretty powerful, and it should be rare.

People don't like the dial. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have. Not all ships will fit to everybody's play style. Just stop trying to make a Defender into a different type of ship. I love its dials and its options. I'm sorry that the Defender can't the super ship it was introduced as in TIE Fighter.

Just thought of this the other day while playing a defender in a recent store championship.

Since MajorJuggler's math and our experience often indicate that the defender is a little overcosted (or at least, non-point efficient) because the White K-Turn is overvalued, what if we introduced a Title (or mod) that says:

Title: TIE Defender Mk II

Cost: 0

The K-Turns on the dial is now green

Obviously I'm not sure how powerful this is, but it's not a generic "point reduction" improvement to make the ship worth its cost, but something that really strengthens what was supposed to be the greatest strength of this ship (the white K). This also makes the ship more unpredictable, as people will be more willing to do a red hard turn, and then either fly straight or K turn to remove the stress.

If we feel this is still not enough to make defenders worth it at their point value, then add a 3 or 5K (white) K-Turn along with the Green 4K. That will make the ship more unpredictable while retaining its unique style of flying.

Thoughts?

Are you proposing to start an e-signature petition to send to the FFG design team to change the Defender dial?

not exactly, but we all know they do read these forums. The more ideas generated here, the more they can pick from or combine to come up with something awesome.

I don't think the Defender is hard up for any improvement, but if FFG were going to release a boost to it, some sort of mod that replicated the Rebel's shield regeneration/protection astromechs would be a good fit for the Defender. Lore-wise, it was supposed to have great shields. Game wise, it would work with how the Defender generally fights.

"Heavy Shield Generators" Modification. TIE Defender only.

Action: Restore 1 shield token

-this would make it an action you'd use upon disengaging, but wouldn't make it any good during a fight

alternatively:

"Reinforced Deflectors" Modification. TIE Defender only.

The first attack that hits this ship each turn removes only one shield token.

-this would be a modest boost to the Defender's survivability, but would help it have a role of surviving/attacking high PS super-guns, and would let it save tokens to go on the offensive vs those guns.

Either one would emphasise the role of a tough, aggressive fighter, and make the Defender feel different from any other Imperial fighter.

This is a very cool idea, something that none of the Imperial ships can do is regenerate shields (I'm looking at you, R2-D2 and R5-P9). If this is the strongest TIE ship and the most advanced with all that shield, this would be a cool upgrade to make the ship play even more like a jouster. when it's recovering from jousting or if it gets outmaneuvered so it doesn't have anyone to shoot, it can use the action to regenerate shields.

Yeah, no. Saying that making the k-turn green would fix the Defender is about as valid as saying the green k-turn would be overpowered. I don't like the green k-turn because it would opens up the debate for white k-turns being more accessible. The White K-turn is pretty powerful, and it should be rare.

People don't like the dial. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have. Not all ships will fit to everybody's play style. Just stop trying to make a Defender into a different type of ship. I love its dials and its options. I'm sorry that the Defender can't the super ship it was introduced as in TIE Fighter.

I think this is just it, in TIE Fighter the Defender was ridiculous, and reasonably the Rebels would lose every fight that had one of these. Balancing it towards being very good like in the novels makes more sense.

Yeah, no. Saying that making the k-turn green would fix the Defender is about as valid as saying the green k-turn would be overpowered. I don't like the green k-turn because it would opens up the debate for white k-turns being more accessible. The White K-turn is pretty powerful, and it should be rare.

People don't like the dial. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have. Not all ships will fit to everybody's play style. Just stop trying to make a Defender into a different type of ship. I love its dials and its options. I'm sorry that the Defender can't the super ship it was introduced as in TIE Fighter.

I think this is just it, in TIE Fighter the Defender was ridiculous, and reasonably the Rebels would lose every fight that had one of these. Balancing it towards being very good like in the novels makes more sense.

Just sayin', I never played that ship in the game nor read the novels. So no bias here from the game/novel. Besides, I like the ship, I'm one of the few who fly them in my area, and I like the uniqueness of the dial. I don't want to change that, but want to make any fixes strengthen what it's good at.

My retort to that would be - does it need fixing?

My retort to that would be - does it need fixing?

We all have our personal opinions of course, but yes, I do personally think it needs a small fix.

Nowhere near the issues that the Advance has, or the A-Wing pre-fix, but it still needs a fix nonetheless to make the generics more competitive in tournament settings (adding to the variety of the meta). And before anyone blasts me about "X-Wing is not just about tournament play", I said that already in my original post. Casual X-Wing players (myself included) can house rule any ship however they want. This discussion is for the official rules as used in FFG tournaments.

I'm usually not someone to say "[X] needs fixing" but here is just an idea that might at least prove fun to play with:

"when you reveal a speed 3 bank, you may instead treat it as a white segnor's loop of the same bearing and speed"

Just something to play up the idea of it being a highly capable ship and at least open up some options.

No clue on how to cost it though. If this is too good, you could make it a white maneuver that gives you a stress token afterwords.

I just know, _know_ that the Defender is going to lure the Y-Wing into a dark alley, mug it, and steal its BTL-A4 title. Because that's exactly what the Defender wanted most in the world, and the Y-Wing got it and it's not FAIR!

Yeah but the Y-Wing was in DAT Movie!

My defender improvement then.

Generic with EPT.

It's also my x-wing improvement and my y-wing improvement.

phantom improvement

Decimator improvement

ah you get the idea.

PS4-6 EPT.

This would be my taste:

EPT for generics, to make this possible:

3 x Delta + Predator

3 x Delta + Outmaneuver

3 x Onyx + AR

3 x Onyx + VI

---

OR: have an Ion Cannon as a free upgrade (respective an discount on cannons)

Fluff supports it, all Defender pilots were interceptor pilots who survived 20+ combat missions.

defenders don't need fixing

They don't need fixing, but they need something to make them worth taking at a competitive level.

What about a card that says "free ion cannons, you can even link the ions like a y-wing, but no other modifications".

or something along those lines.

2 Attacks with the Defender? Don't you think this would be OP?

How about this instead:

'Linked Ion Cannons'

Tie Defender only

3 points

Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results. Attack value: 3. Range: 1-3.

Cannon Upgrade Slot

So just like Ion Cannon, with the difference that all hits count.

That works.

Another idea, keeping in line with the Video games would be a reduced price engine upgrade.

"They don't need fixing, BUT..."

Come on, really? Defenders are a solid choice for a list, even in a competitive setting. It's the player's preference, whether perceived power or aesthetic, that dictates what ships make a list.

There's a reason they are so expensive. They have 3's across the board, a WHITE k-turn, and a good upgrade option (cannons on a beast ship!). Forgive my ignorance, but I fail understand the need to improve anything on a TIE Defender.

What I do see is the need to improve a bunch of players' expectations. Maybe, just maybe, if a ship doesn't fit your expectation, you should change your expectation before FFG has to go and 'fix' another fighter.

2 Attacks with the Defender? Don't you think this would be OP?

How about this instead:

'Linked Ion Cannons'

Tie Defender only

3 points

Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results. Attack value: 3. Range: 1-3.

Cannon Upgrade Slot

So just like Ion Cannon, with the difference that all hits count.

This gets my vote.

I agree that the upcoming Ywing title is exactly what i had hoped for my defenders... but ffg cant just re-use the btl-a4 idea again for the defender.

This cannon option is excellent for the defender

I would even suggest the cannon be like

Tie Defender Only

Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 additional damage and receives 1 ion token. Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change all (crits) to (hits)

Attack value: 3. Range: 1-3.

Cannon Upgrade Slot

That way the cannon can be kind of a blend of heavy laser cannon and ion cannon. Then have the cannon be somewhere between 3~5 pts

Nope. White K-turn was revolutionary. Making it green? I think not.

Not really. B-wing semi-had it first.

Technically, anyone who took Adrenaline Rush had it first.

For one turn, at least.

I honestly can't imagine FFG coming out with something that effects the dial to that extent.

If they feel the need to update the Defender I'm sure it'll be more clever than changing the color of some of the maneuvers.

Just have a title or modification that lets Defenders use Astromechs. That will be totally original and make Defenders pretty badass.

R2-D2 isn't "Rebel Only"

"They don't need fixing, BUT..."

Come on, really? Defenders are a solid choice for a list, even in a competitive setting. It's the player's preference, whether perceived power or aesthetic, that dictates what ships make a list.

There's a reason they are so expensive. They have 3's across the board, a WHITE k-turn, and a good upgrade option (cannons on a beast ship!). Forgive my ignorance, but I fail understand the need to improve anything on a TIE Defender.

What I do see is the need to improve a bunch of players' expectations. Maybe, just maybe, if a ship doesn't fit your expectation, you should change your expectation before FFG has to go and 'fix' another fighter.

All empirical evidence. Tournaments prove otherwise. They are seeing little competitive play.

Something can be unbroken and still not be at s competitive level. Tie Advanced and A wings were broken. Han was not, but he wasn't really competitive until C3PO.

Here's a hypothetical one for y'all. How would people have felt if the Defender had got the Systems Upgrade slot and the Phantom didn't?

"They don't need fixing, BUT..."

Come on, really? Defenders are a solid choice for a list, even in a competitive setting. It's the player's preference, whether perceived power or aesthetic, that dictates what ships make a list.

There's a reason they are so expensive. They have 3's across the board, a WHITE k-turn, and a good upgrade option (cannons on a beast ship!). Forgive my ignorance, but I fail understand the need to improve anything on a TIE Defender.

What I do see is the need to improve a bunch of players' expectations. Maybe, just maybe, if a ship doesn't fit your expectation, you should change your expectation before FFG has to go and 'fix' another fighter.

All empirical evidence. Tournaments prove otherwise. They are seeing little competitive play.

Something can be unbroken and still not be at s competitive level. Tie Advanced and A wings were broken. Han was not, but he wasn't really competitive until C3PO.

By this logic, the Firespray also needs a fix. The TIE Defender overall performed better than the Firespray and there were MORE Firesprays than TIE Defenders.

But as we all know, the Firespray is a really good ship. So...I'm still not seeing the need to fix the Defender.

"They don't need fixing, BUT..."

Come on, really? Defenders are a solid choice for a list, even in a competitive setting. It's the player's preference, whether perceived power or aesthetic, that dictates what ships make a list.

There's a reason they are so expensive. They have 3's across the board, a WHITE k-turn, and a good upgrade option (cannons on a beast ship!). Forgive my ignorance, but I fail understand the need to improve anything on a TIE Defender.

What I do see is the need to improve a bunch of players' expectations. Maybe, just maybe, if a ship doesn't fit your expectation, you should change your expectation before FFG has to go and 'fix' another fighter.

All empirical evidence. Tournaments prove otherwise. They are seeing little competitive play.

Something can be unbroken and still not be at s competitive level. Tie Advanced and A wings were broken. Han was not, but he wasn't really competitive until C3PO.

Really? HSF wasn't competitive?