I love the Defender, even as-is, although I understand why it's claimed that the ship is overcosted. The Defender is the ultimate jousting ship, and if jousting values say it's overcosted, I can't really argue with that!

I like the idea of a green K-Turn, it's a bit funny but would really adjust how I'm willing to fly the two unique pilots; suddenly an Engine Upgrade and Push the Limit are no longer antithetical to how the thing flies! Flip around, Boost or Barrel Roll then focus, then flip around and do it again. That essentially gives it a SLoop if it's warranted, and a good ol' TL/F any other time. Normally I can't stand fitting an Engine Upgrade on there because you have to lose Focus or Target Lock just to make the thing fly more like a TIE/ln or Interceptor, and that's not in line with the ship's dial. Also, it's going to be a little difficult to repeatedly stress out the generic pilots to make the change worth anything.

I don't see FFG trying to fix the ship by changing the dial. I feel like the R2 Astro and Unhinged Astro are slightly different cases, in that their application and opportunity cost weigh in appropriately for the few ships that can use them. The Defender has a solid dial; I've never had a situation where I thought the maneuvers available to me were problematic. The thing handles very differently to everything else, that much is obvious, but I think FFG really nailed what they were going for. The bread and butter basics are:

4-K white

5-straight green

3-turn white

1-bank white

and very rarely do I need to pick something besides those four moves. Vessery and Brath have a little more leeway because they move later and might need to pick a 2-bank or 3-straight to remain unpredictable or on-target, but that's what happens when you're hunting ships with lower Pilot Skill.

In my opinion, the Delta Defender is one of the strongest ships in the game, and has a lot of potential, but is completely ignored due to cost, dial, and Phantoms. I don't hold it against you for not flying Defenders, that's not an issue, rather I wish people would give it more of a chance to do what it does best: barrel straight into somebody, blocking at PS1, then following up with a white K-Turn and raising hell. Phantoms are harder to do this to, and YTs aren't all that bothered by having you behind them, but in both cases if you can grab your focus token the Defender is a beast to put down. This isn't exactly news.

As for attempting to fix the ship, if FFG does give it a unique Title or Mod, I hope they're as clever and unpredictable as they have been so far.

You know what, if I had to take a stab at it, I'd mess with what the Defender does well already, and try to give it something nothing else has; a cost-reduction has been done twice now. Personally, the high-speed maneuverability of the Defender is reliant upon its dial and the Barrel Roll action, and that's worth tweaking. How about:

Upgraded Maneuvering Jets (0-1 points)

When performing a Barrel Roll

action, you must use the

2-(straight) or 3-(straight)

maneuver template.

I think of this as something to get a little more kick out of the white K-Turn, because now the ship can reposition itself even more without attaching an Engine Upgrade, and the lateral movement is much different to the forward motion of the Boost action. I picture something like a very wide roll while the ship is dropkick/Koiogran turning, enabled by higher output on the adjustment jets on the wings. This also has some interesting applications with the other strong moves on the dial; the 5-straight can now very easily put the pilot behind a rock to hide after fleeing an engagement; the 3-turn has a ridiculous lateral reach that can shift you across the board or rotate the ship a quarter turn and slide it sideways; the 1-bank can place the ship quite a ways backwards of its starting point.

Don't know if it should be free or cost a point, especially since I'd rather have it take up the Mod slot so it can't be combo'd with the EU; I'm leaning towards free for that reason. I'd love to playtest it on a Delta or Vessery because I think it makes the Barrel Roll an even greater part of the toolbox, but since it doesn't impact offense/defense dice rolls, it isn't a go-to without some help (Outmaneuver Vessery in particular). You're still beholden to collisions, unlike the Decloak movement, and if you're moving before the opponent it still requires forethought and skill to make it work. But I think this would give Defenders a strong chance against Interceptors and Phantoms, and even gives Brath a solid shot at SuperDash. Frankly I felt a single Defender against an X or B-Wing was already very strong, and I don't see a major change by having a super-BR, while it becomes more relevant in the face of the more popular Imperial choices.

I'll have to playtest it to see what it really represents for the Defender, but I can come back with news if anyone is interested in the idea.

Fly Right!

Problem solved... kinda.

I honestly can't imagine FFG coming out with something that effects the dial to that extent.

If they feel the need to update the Defender I'm sure it'll be more clever than changing the color of some of the maneuvers.

As a matter of fact, they did (will do) it with the Y-Wing.

Defender needs help with doing damage so it can better earn it's points back. Still proselytizing for a Defender only ion cannon that fires after you make a primary attack. That way you have a chance to do an additional point of damage and to ionize the target. Just make it so you have to target the same target as your primary..

If you want to make them better. It's simple.

All Tie Defenders are flown by the most experienced Pilots Only, They should all have an Elite Pilot Slot.

Maybe replace the missile upgrade with Elite Pilot Slot, or add a title that gives it. Because, all of the pilots to fly the defender as the best the empire has to offer and had to survive 20 missions in a basic tie, then prove themselves in a flight simulator against terrible odds.

If you give them all a EPT for 0 points, that goes along way to fixing them.

I never really understood why the Defender would have a PS 1 pilot when only the best would be flying it. And I would have to agree, they should all have at least an EPT!

If you want to make them better. It's simple.

All Tie Defenders are flown by the most experienced Pilots Only, They should all have an Elite Pilot Slot.

Maybe replace the missile upgrade with Elite Pilot Slot, or add a title that gives it. Because, all of the pilots to fly the defender as the best the empire has to offer and had to survive 20 missions in a basic tie, then prove themselves in a flight simulator against terrible odds.

If you give them all a EPT for 0 points, that goes along way to fixing them.

I never really understood why the Defender would have a PS 1 pilot when only the best would be flying it. And I would have to agree, they should all have at least an EPT!

For pilot skill, Alex told me an some others at worlds, that a Defender PS=1 was different than another PS=1 ship, even though in game terms they are the same. So I guess a 1 PS defender pilot is a rookie defender pilot as hasn't figured out how to use his new ship yet to it's fullest potential. However, he still has 20 missions previously, so IMO he should have an EPT.

But I totally agree all defenders should have at least 1 ept, but 2 would be cool. Like the Royal Guard Title, but instead of two modifications, up to two EPT's.

title:

0 pts

Best of the Best

Each defender pilot gains 1 EPT, if he has a pilot skill of 3 or more he can gain 2.

So the named ones should have 3 EPTs?!

No, just no. The Defender doesn't need an effin' "fix".

If this keeps up, people will be complaining about how terrible Howlrunner is.

I really can't understand the Tie Defender complaints. I run them very often and they are much more then meets the eye. I find that I hardly ever miss a turn of shooting. I may be a little more cautious in my maneuvers then some and I don't try to always rush into range 1 shots With 3 dice you can still do damage at range 2-3 on most ships fairly easily. I find the defender dial very adequate and the white K is incredibly valuable. What do you think an upgrade card that provided a white unlimited use k-turn would cost??? It would be VERY expensive. The defender is awesome and has been a beast on the board for me in numerous games. I run it without hesitation because it has the chops to go up against any other small ship IMO.

Needs boost on the action bar and white K3 & k5.

Though as long as we're handing out free accuracy correctors...

In keeping with the imperial theme of maneuverability superiority.

A defender only modification that allowed you to change a green maneuver into a equal speed bank white maneuver. The only thing I find bAd for the defender is that it is very predictable for its cost. It's defined by a k turn priced almost as much as a large ship but not quite as resilient. Making it more unpredictable makes it harder to keep in your arc and more resilient.

The Defender is not a bad ship (like the pre-fix Advanced), and I for one appreciate how different it is to fly. But there is a reason why you don't see many of it in the competitive scene, let alone in a winning tournament list. Again, before anyone jumps on that, yes, X-Wing is not defined by just competitive play, but competitive play brings out which ships are more cost efficient and also gives enough of an advantage to play. I love Defenders and often play them and am trying to work them into my tournament lists, but I always bump into the issue of having to add an upgrade or two and getting sticker shock like "It cost HOW much???"

I think a lot of the suggestions here are all good and will go towards really defining a good role for the defender (whether it's a unique flying ship or a cannon platform, or something even more brute force). And that's what this thread is about, just another idea of making the ship worth its points by suggesting something different.

The Defender doesn't need to be fixed. It's a beast! I'm so happy I don't run into them in tournaments and I destroy people I face because they didn't plan for them.

The Defender doesn't need to be fixed. It's a beast! I'm so happy I don't run into them in tournaments and I destroy people I face because they didn't plan for them.

AGREED!

Young (or inexperienced) Imperials think all TIE fly like.... well, a TIE.

Wrong!

And The Empire is better for it!

Now go practice and stop crying for fix, fix, fixes!

Just thought of this the other day while playing a defender in a recent store championship.

Since MajorJuggler's math and our experience often indicate that the defender is a little overcosted (or at least, non-point efficient) because the White K-Turn is overvalued, what if we introduced a Title (or mod) that says:

Title: TIE Defender Mk II

Cost: 0

The K-Turns on the dial is now green

Obviously I'm not sure how powerful this is, but it's not a generic "point reduction" improvement to make the ship worth its cost, but something that really strengthens what was supposed to be the greatest strength of this ship (the white K). This also makes the ship more unpredictable, as people will be more willing to do a red hard turn, and then either fly straight or K turn to remove the stress.

If we feel this is still not enough to make defenders worth it at their point value, then add a 3 or 5K (white) K-Turn along with the Green 4K. That will make the ship more unpredictable while retaining its unique style of flying.

Thoughts?

Are you proposing to start an e-signature petition to send to the FFG design team to change the Defender dial?

If you are stressing your own defender, you are doing it wrong. Stop treating it like a super-'ceptor. Don't knife fight, don't run PTL. The defender is designed (in this game) as super mobile cannon platform. If you want a beefy interceptor, put HU, SU, and PTL on a royal. Only 32 points...

Having a native boost action or upgrades relating to its cannon is really what a defender wants for Christmas.

I just know, _know_ that the Defender is going to lure the Y-Wing into a dark alley, mug it, and steal its BTL-A4 title. Because that's exactly what the Defender wanted most in the world, and the Y-Wing got it and it's not FAIR!

The Defender sucks because the Phantom exists. Have you ever try to pin down a Phantom in a Defender? Its like trying to hit a sports car with a bus. A modification/upgrade that opens up the dial a bit would help. Really I just am hoping for something that grants boost at little to zero cost.

that Upgrade card already exists, it is called Adrenaline Rush

The Defender sucks because the Phantom exists. Have you ever try to pin down a Phantom in a Defender? Its like trying to hit a sports car with a bus. A modification/upgrade that opens up the dial a bit would help. Really I just am hoping for something that grants boost at little to zero cost.

that Upgrade card already exists, it is called Adrenaline Rush

But Deltas and Onyx can't use it and Rexler, Vessery want to have different elites.

Imho AR should cost 0 points anyway ... but thats a different story.

I don't think the Defender is hard up for any improvement, but if FFG were going to release a boost to it, some sort of mod that replicated the Rebel's shield regeneration/protection astromechs would be a good fit for the Defender. Lore-wise, it was supposed to have great shields. Game wise, it would work with how the Defender generally fights.

"Heavy Shield Generators" Modification. TIE Defender only.

Action: Restore 1 shield token

-this would make it an action you'd use upon disengaging, but wouldn't make it any good during a fight

alternatively:

"Reinforced Deflectors" Modification. TIE Defender only.

The first attack that hits this ship each turn removes only one shield token.

-this would be a modest boost to the Defender's survivability, but would help it have a role of surviving/attacking high PS super-guns, and would let it save tokens to go on the offensive vs those guns.

Either one would emphasise the role of a tough, aggressive fighter, and make the Defender feel different from any other Imperial fighter.

The Defender sucks because the Phantom exists. Have you ever try to pin down a Phantom in a Defender? Its like trying to hit a sports car with a bus. A modification/upgrade that opens up the dial a bit would help. Really I just am hoping for something that grants boost at little to zero cost.

that Upgrade card already exists, it is called Adrenaline Rush

But Deltas and Onyx can't use it and Rexler, Vessery want to have different elites.

Imho AR should cost 0 points anyway ... but thats a different story.

Totally agree with this. Most people who say how great the ship is fly vessery or rex. The Delta is ok, but frankly the Onyx is useless, because it gives a 3 pilot skill for 2 extra points, which means people have their lower pilot skill ships move and block your moves. It the same with the 1 and 3 sabers and other ships too. Were looking at helping the basic ships, not so much the named pilots.

Remember the Fluff of these pilots, Survive 20 Missions in a basic Tie, rigorous special forces training, which involved being outnumbered 3-4 to 1 and using flying strategy to overcome it.. Finally, must past final test in front of Rex or Vader. These guys should have incredible skill and should be well trained.

People who think the green K turn would somehow shatter the earth with it's overpoweredness aren't going to be worth listening to, honestly. They aren't good enough at the game to know what's going on.

Things that are really really good in X wing:

Big turret ships

Phantoms

12 point ships

Things that don't care if a ship can green K-turn:

Big turret ships

Phantoms

Things that will block a green K-turn, turning it into a green straight with no action:

12 point ships

Make the K turn green if you want, it won't matter. For the points a loaded defender costs it wouldn't be OP if the whole dial was green. It would be thematic too.

I don't think the Defender is hard up for any improvement, but if FFG were going to release a boost to it, some sort of mod that replicated the Rebel's shield regeneration/protection astromechs would be a good fit for the Defender. Lore-wise, it was supposed to have great shields. Game wise, it would work with how the Defender generally fights.

"Heavy Shield Generators" Modification. TIE Defender only.

Action: Restore 1 shield token

-this would make it an action you'd use upon disengaging, but wouldn't make it any good during a fight

alternatively:

"Reinforced Deflectors" Modification. TIE Defender only.

The first attack that hits this ship each turn removes only one shield token.

-this would be a modest boost to the Defender's survivability, but would help it have a role of surviving/attacking high PS super-guns, and would let it save tokens to go on the offensive vs those guns.

Either one would emphasise the role of a tough, aggressive fighter, and make the Defender feel different from any other Imperial fighter.

I like those ideas. How much you would cost them is up for debate. Maybe the first one would be 2 points? I would say 3 but, it takes an action. The second one is pretty good too, I would say 2 points as well. It would give you a tough choice on what to bring.

The Defender sucks because the Phantom exists. Have you ever try to pin down a Phantom in a Defender? Its like trying to hit a sports car with a bus. A modification/upgrade that opens up the dial a bit would help. Really I just am hoping for something that grants boost at little to zero cost.

that Upgrade card already exists, it is called Adrenaline Rush

But Deltas and Onyx can't use it and Rexler, Vessery want to have different elites.

Imho AR should cost 0 points anyway ... but thats a different story.

Vessery is fine without an EPT but Brath needs predator usually. Without it, his ability doesn't go off much.

Vessery is fine without an EPT but Brath needs predator usually. Without it, his ability doesn't go off much.

Fleet Officer makes Brath dramatically better and gives him more EPT options. Fleet Officer also has the added benefit of making pretty much every Imperial ship better.

The Defender sucks because the Phantom exists. Have you ever try to pin down a Phantom in a Defender? Its like trying to hit a sports car with a bus. A modification/upgrade that opens up the dial a bit would help. Really I just am hoping for something that grants boost at little to zero cost.

that Upgrade card already exists, it is called Adrenaline Rush

But Deltas and Onyx can't use it and Rexler, Vessery want to have different elites.

Imho AR should cost 0 points anyway ... but thats a different story.

mmmm ok then, bring along a Yorr Shuttle.