As anti-phantom goes, I'm curious what a heavy scyck with autoblaster and a y-wing with autoblaster turret fare. Doesn't matter how many green dice you throw, if evades are ignored.

They'll be horrible because Autoblasters are horrible. Any Phantom that allows something with an Autoblaster to kill it should be dropped on the floor and stomped into little tiny bits of plastic.

Sadly, this is true. Considering that Echo and Whisper will out-PS all but a few Scum pilots, there is little to no reason for them to willingly decloak anywhere that will put them within range of an Autoblaster shot. They only reason that they'd possibly consider it would be if the alternative were to put them within Range 2 of the HWK pilot who can drop them to PS0, but I'd have to assume that they just wouldn't decloak at all in that scenario.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Well he's possibly basing that on Tournament results post wave 4. Not seeing any Interceptors safe for the occasional Fel anywhere in the top32 at major tournaments anymore, and for good reason.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Interceptors were casualties of the anti-Phantom meta. For the most part, Phantom counters are also strong against Interceptors. A lot of those counters were available before Wave 4 but weren't quite seen as things that must be in any competive list. At the same time the swarms and 5 ship builds that were effective against Falcons became less common because they were weak against Phantoms and by the time you started spending points so that your list wouldn't have a bad matchup against Phantom you weren't able to field as many ships. Since the Falcon was strong against Phantoms and had less of a chance to face its natural predator (and when it did the cheap Z-95s helped it deal better with swarms).

Having Phantom counters everywhere that also happen to be rough on Interceptors isn't a great scene for Interceptors. Why would anyone fly an Interceptor instead of a Phantom. Interceptors have the same weaknessess, they aren't quite as powerful, and are only slightly less expensive than Phantoms.

Interceptors aren't bad ships. They don't currently give consistent enough results to fare well in larger tournaments. The same "competent hands" that can do exceedingly well with Interceptors could do even better with a Phantom so that's what they started taking to tournaments. It's not that Interceptors are bad, they just became second best at what they do with no compeling reason to take them over the ship that best fills the same role. If Autothrusters play out the way I think they will they'll make Interceptors and Phantoms even closer in cost and while they'll still fill the same role they will each have different enough strengths that there is a reason that you woul pick one or the other.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Come in first with them, then we'll talk

Edit

Yout also talking about pre wave 4.

Things have changed

That's too bad for you. There is some good advice there.

I suggest you go back and look at it objectively.

"Keep shooting" is his good advice? Does he assume I've just spent my games trying to fly in formation with it? Yes, I've shot it down twice that way in the past but every turn I fire and miss another of my ships turns into a fireball. It's not the way to win.

The thing about bringing a list like yours that is built around a gimmick is that anything that prevents the gimmick from working guts the effectiveness of the list. If your friend would have shown up with Dark Curse you'd be in here complaining about him being over powered as well.

Dark Curse is annoying but it's a soft counter. I can still transfer focus with Kyle, Use Jake's abilities, fire Proton Rockets and anything else I want to do except spend the focus when targeting the tie fighter who I might add only has 2 attack dice.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems.

There's quite a few people who have managed to be cool AND helpful here. Maybe he could follow their example?

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Only fel is used since wave four mate as everyone jumped on the falcon boat, generic squints suffer quite a bit with dash and Han on the rebel side and the decimator fast becoming popular, but autothrusters arrive soon so they'll make a come back.

That's too bad for you. There is some good advice there.

I suggest you go back and look at it objectively.

"Keep shooting" is his good advice? Does he assume I've just spent my games trying to fly in formation with it? Yes, I've shot it down twice that way in the past but every turn I fire and miss another of my ships turns into a fireball. It's not the way to win.

The thing about bringing a list like yours that is built around a gimmick is that anything that prevents the gimmick from working guts the effectiveness of the list. If your friend would have shown up with Dark Curse you'd be in here complaining about him being over powered as well.

Dark Curse is annoying but it's a soft counter. I can still transfer focus with Kyle, Use Jake's abilities, fire Proton Rockets and anything else I want to do except spend the focus when targeting the tie fighter who I might add only has 2 attack dice.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems.

There's quite a few people who have managed to be cool AND helpful here. Maybe he could follow their example?

@Kingsguard - considering what you have at your disposal, you will have some problems dealing with the phantom. From the sound of things, you are using only rebel ships?

Part of the problem that you'll face is the question of what you have at your disposal to use against your friend. If it was just Carnor Jax, there are lots of counters - the issue is that you need to deal with a Phantom without Engine, YT1300, etc.

I'm assuming that you guys are just playing casually? And that the reason you don't have the Falcon/Firespray is that they aren't available in your area? If that's the case, while waiting for them to become available, see if your friend will object to you proxying some of the cards. The ones I would have a long hard look at are Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade, and the YT-1300 and pilots.

The challenge with the Phantom (and Echo in particular) lies in how to chase it down so that you can get those two or three good shots at it that you need to kill it.

Deadshane's advice - keep shooting - is actually good advice versus a Phantom - and here's why - barring an absurd lucky streak, if you take the time to open up on the Phantom, and can get multiple ships pointing at it (there's the rub), you will get shots through that will take it out.

Other than that, the Phantom doesn't like HLCs, so a couple of B-Wings or a YT-2400 equipped with Outrider and a HLC can do wonders about it. Just make sure that you utilize the rest of your ships to be in a position to take out the Phantom if it drifts into R1 of the 2400 (the deadzone). Dash w/ Kyle, Push the Limit, Outrider, and HLC does wonders against lists like the one your friend is flying, and with careful support and flying should be able to beat it regularly. If you really want to make your friend cry, add Roark Garnet with an Ion Cannon, Predator... Ideally you'd add Chewbacca (crew) to Roark and Engine Upgrade to Dash.

If you DON'T have the YT2400, I'd have a look at Nera Dantels - her 360 degree torpedoes can make short work ships attempting to arc dodge.

If you're willing to play Imperials, and you want to REALLY laugh at your friend, fly a decimator with Gunner and Vader (crew). Add in a Rebel Captive, and he'll positively cry.

One last question for you - is your friend playing with expansions that you don't have access to? If his Echo is PS 6, your options expand quite a bit. If, on the other hand, he's using VI, ... well, that gets a bit harder. And is a tad douchier.

Yeah, I want him to have fun too. Not out to slaughter him. I just am getting tired of these huge advantages he has over me. It's really not fun to be trying to kill this 4 attack dice phantom with 2 attack dice A-Wings who can't fire missiles or benefit from any of the fun tricks I wanted to use because Jax hosed them all.

If he's the only one having fun ask him to leave the Phantom at home. If he wants to stick with Jax you should bring a list that isn't so dependent on focus.

Carnor Jax is my favorite pilot currently in the game. He's not the best Interceptor pilot out there and against the majority of lists out there his ability is annoying but not overpowered. You would have had to try really hard to pick out a list that would be a better match-up for Jax than the one you've got.

the phantom (by itself) is alright, tell him to play without Advanced Cloaking Device

Noone has suggested it yet, but Skywalker would be a good counter to your ails in the original post!

With VI Jax is nothing to him and he will laugh at whisper even.

Skywalker

-VI

-R2D2

-Engine Upgrade

Not the WORST way to spend 37 pts.

3 Rookie X-Wings for him to chew on while Skywalker waits to win the endgame. If they go after him first....all the better. You could also fill with Z's but that's probably not the best idea when shooting at cloaked ships and tanked interceptors. A Z with a homing missle might be useful if you want to throw a B-Wing into the mix somehow. I would work with the 4 X's though.

I know that I would feel confident taking on a Jax and Echo list with that many red dice to throw....and Luke on the juice.

Are you guys using the same dice pool? It sounds like his green dice are way hotter than most. If you do share dice, consider making your own defense-centric lists, so that you can get in on some of the not-quite-as-evil-as-most green dice action.

As a general rule, green dice are worse than red dice (greens replace the critical hit with an extra blank face). If you can throw enough sets of red dice at the enemy, eventually his green dice will betray him, and statistically it should happen sooner rather than later. Against a high-PS Phantom the difficult part can be getting shots off in the first place, but Ion and Stress, as well as turrets (with Gunner preferably), should each make it easier to pull off.

Frankly, it's pretty difficult *not* to provide advice that will seem condescending, because you called out one of the worst ships in the game as being overpowered, so you are going to hear variants of "do better" or "build a better list" because those are your real problems. Carnor Jax practically counters himself by forcing his owner to drive their 30ish point PS8 3hull 0shield model into range 1 of your opponents in order to use his pilot ability. Given how hilarious this thread is to most of us, I think Jehan did a really good job of providing some generically constructive advice.

Carnor is certainly not overpowered and he's taken a hit a Wave 4+5 (At Wave 3 regionals he was one of the top 8 or 9 most used and effective pilots), but he's nowhere near one of the worst ships in the game when flown well and incredibly frustrating to opponents.

He's currently a decent pilot in a ship that doesn't see play any more. He was pretty good back when we used the abacus, but that's not really relevant right now. If autothrusters are the salvation everyone desperately wants them to be, he'll probably come back. All of these things are beyond the scope of the real thrust of my point, which was the fact that Carnor Jax is the farthest thing from OP enough to come to the boards about. Saying "You're complaining about a ship that used to be good but really isn't any more so it's basically not good vs. good lists" doesn't have quite the same ring to it you know?

I've got at ask, what are you smoking? When have interceptors fallen out of favor? I still use them and have since they came out, took a 3 interceptor and tie list to regionals and got in the top 4 back when people were using Han shoots first lists, which mind you isnt that different from what people like to fly now. Your information is flawed and completely biased. Just because not every imperial list has an interceptor does it make it bad. Interceptors still do exceedingly well in component hands, autothrusters will just bolster that.

Maybe could have done better if you didn't have interceptors.

Come in first with them, then we'll talk

Edit

Yout also talking about pre wave 4.

Things have changed

They have. You said that Han shoot first kind of list is like a Fat Han, and is played the same way. That's wrong. Engine upgrade and no offensive action required changes it quite a bit. And by a bit i mean a lot, on how it is played, specially considering its escorts don't require to deal damage, but are as area denial tools, unlike the Xwings.

They are different lists.

They have. You said that Han shoot first kind of list is like a Fat Han, and is played the same way. That's wrong. Engine upgrade and no offensive action required changes it quite a bit. And by a bit i mean a lot, on how it is played, specially considering its escorts don't require to deal damage, but are as area denial tools, unlike the Xwings.

They are different lists.