From an early development stage of X-Wing:

No 'Spend your target lock' and crits were auto direct hits.

Very interesting, this does bring up the question why do you have to spend your target lock then.

My guess was to balance it with the Tie Fighters that has no secondary weapons.

This almost should be its own thread. Thanks for the history lesson, it does share some valuable insight.

That upgrade frame is WAY cooler than the one that actually made it in.

My suggestion for a change is something like this: If a torpedo or missile attack hits (one or more damage is dealt to the defender) then one more (face down) damage is dealt to the defender.

I think this would benefit all missile and torpedo carriers approximately equally.

It would not make it easier for the attack to hit but give it a bigger punch when it does.

This would make them more worthwile to use, especially against low AG ships.

I think this is quite a small change that would be easy to introduce. Either as a rule change in a FAQ or as an upgrade, for example a ship modification: Overcharged Munitions, cost 0-2 Points, effect for the ship as above.

Thoughts?

.

That returns us to the Large barrel roll issue.

There is a big difference between the interaction of 1 upgrade card and 2 ships and every missile and torpedo plus every ship that can carry them.So no that is not really justification for changing the rules via a FAQ or rules card, because the impact is massively different. And again, is something that can quite easily be dealt with via a upgrade card, which is how FFG seems to prefer doing things. Consider the impact someone would have on their game if they had a YT-1300 and Expert Handling then found out that the way they barrel roll works slightly different... Vs the impact when they find out that Missiles always do 4-5 damage if they hit, and Torpedos ignore shields.

Personally I am not saying they are going to make torpedoes ignore shields or missiles garaunteeing damage. But there is absolutely nothing stopping them from rewording the actual rules written in the secondary weapon section of the rules manual and say that ordinance does not need to fire within the firing arc since that particular rule is clarified within the rules manual and is nowhere listed on any card. It is also not out of context for them to fix ordinance by stating secondary weapons that require an action token to activate can also modify that specific atk with that action token because once again that particular rule is clarified in the rules manual.

Tournaments already require that you be up on all the latest updates, including the FAQs and Errata.

While it's a good idea to be up to date on things, no there is actually no requirement that you are. People can and do go play tournaments all the time, and have never even heard of the FAQ let alone read it.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-Tournament-Rules.pdf

I've attached the rules for you.

Please refer to the last section of these rules called tiers of play.

Casual play does not require extensive knowledge of rules.

Competitive play requires general knowledge of rules. (This tier includes store championships)

Premier play requires complete knowledge of the rules, faqs, and tournament rules and should expect all rules to be strictly enforced. (This tier includes regional, nationals, and world)

I had an idea for this mod. I realize that it invalidates Munition failsafe, but that was an attempt by ffg that didn't do enough.

Munitions Magazine - 0 pts Modification

Any time you use Ordinance flip it over instead of discarding it.

Action: You may flip any used ordinance card back face up.

This would help addess the cost issue of ordinance but would prevent them from being to powerfull as you cant use them every turn, unless your PTL or Vader.

It would also make then much more fluffy, since most ships, especially bombers carried dozens of muntions each. Also this would make the munitions failure crit much more feared.

This fix requires a minor change to the rules. Flipping cards over instead of discarding them, but other than that I think its a pretty elegant fix.

Also points cost could be tweaked but I feel that Ordinance is a little exspensive as is for a one use weapon.

I also like the idea of getting to use your TL when you discard it to fire ordinance.

I had an idea for this mod. I realize that it invalidates Munition failsafe, but that was an attempt by ffg that didn't do enough.

Munitions Magazine - 0 pts Modification

Any time you use Ordinance flip it over instead of discarding it.

Action: You may flip any used ordinance card back face up.

This would help addess the cost issue of ordinance but would prevent them from being to powerfull as you cant use them every turn, unless your PTL or Vader.

It would also make then much more fluffy, since most ships, especially bombers carried dozens of muntions each. Also this would make the munitions failure crit much more feared.

This fix requires a minor change to the rules. Flipping cards over instead of discarding them, but other than that I think its a pretty elegant fix.

Also points cost could be tweaked but I feel that Ordinance is a little exspensive as is for a one use weapon.

I also like the idea of getting to use your TL when you discard it to fire ordinance.

In my Tie Bomber suggestions there were cards that discard in place of weapon which cost a lower point value thus copying a weapon for a discount (or free).

I'm deleting my post... because I don't want to further derail this thread. Anyone who actually reads the tournament rules will see why Gungo is once again wrong, and in fact misquoting the actual rules which IMO is even worse than just being wrong. Because that makes him look dishonest.

I want to throw out a question here for people to consider.

Does Ord need to be fixed in general, or only the old ones? Take Prockets for example, those aren't so bad and see play. Because they are actually worth the points.

So does the old stuff need to be fixed or is the game better suited by making new stuff that's actually useful? I could see it either way, but thought I'd throw it out to everyone else.

I'm deleting my post... because I don't want to further derail this thread. Anyone who actually reads the tournament rules will see why Gungo is once again wrong, and in fact misquoting the actual rules which IMO is even worse than just being wrong. Because that makes him look dishonest.I want to throw out a question here for people to consider.Does Ord need to be fixed in general, or only the old ones? Take Prockets for example, those aren't so bad and see play. Because they are actually worth the points.So does the old stuff need to be fixed or is the game better suited by making new stuff that's actually useful? I could see it either way, but thought I'd throw it out to everyone else.

Btw I am still waiting for that developer quote stating they will never update the core rules via errata and will only update the game via upgrade cards, because I am quite certain at this point that it has nothing to do with my ability to locate that conversation in a video and more a problem with your ability to just make stuff up.

To any your question most ordinance is quite bad. Prockets are neither efficient or good. They might be playable but that doesn't mean it doesn't need a small fix such as allowing ordinance to be adjusted by the tokens required to activate it. There are a handful of decent ordinance. Not really competitive but decent. Things like concussion and assault missiles have a place but even those could use the ability to use their action token.

FFG wouldn't even have to do it via FAQ, though they'd want to include any change in their subsequent FAQ release.

They release new rules with separate rule sheets all the time. Ions, Boost, Auxiliary firing arcs, etc., all came with their own rule sheets.

Imagine, if you will, a Bombing Run pack that included an alternate paint Y-wing and an alternate paint TIE Bomber. Also included in that pack was a new rule sheet called Ordinance. This rule sheet would also be available online for anyone who didn't have the Bombing Run pack but wanted to use the new rules. On this new Ordinance sheet, FFG laid out a new set of rules, from definitions (what is Ordinance as opposed to secondary weapons generally) to special rules (bonus Agility for Small ships dodging torpedoes, each hit with a torpedo causes two damage, missiles impose a cap on the target's Agility for that attack, etc.). Naturally, the actual content of the rules sheet would vary depending on the solution FFG decided to go with.

I don't think this would be a terribly big problem. Tournaments already require that you be up on all the latest updates, including the FAQs and Errata, while casual play could take or leave the rule sheet as desired by the players.

All the "new rules" that have come out have expanded on the original rules and not made wholesale changes to them. In some cases those rules are explaining how the rules should interact with something else that is getting directly added to the game (the rules for Large Ships including how Ion tokens work on them and how they barrel roll). Trying to separate "ordnance" from "secondary weapons" is a pretty poor idea in my mind. I mean the CORE set has "secondary weapons" in it and if those torpedoes and now "ordnance" instead what the hell are they in the core rules for? From the onset of the game "secondary weapons" first mean torpedoes with missiles and turrets added with wave 1.

FFG may do something to improve 'old' ordnance but just making the new stuff work better goes a long ways.

Barrel roll was actually changed in the rule book via FAQ between wave 4 and 5 regarding large ships before the release of yt1300 which had it natively even though it was used extensively since wave 2 on the yt2400. However you are right the quick reference cards have been historically used to add or expand existing rules.

To improve ordinance ffg doesn't even need to separate ordinance from secondary weapons they could just change the section in the core rule book about secondary weapons using action tokens to activate. That is the only place where those rules are explained. And allowing secondary weapons to use those action tokens as modifiers on their atk goes a long way to fixing ordinance. Also there is only 1 non ordinance in game that requires a token to activate and that canon also has the same issues as ordinance in that it is considered inefficient because of this loss of action economy.

I'm deleting my post... because I don't want to further derail this thread. Anyone who actually reads the tournament rules will see why Gungo is once again wrong, and in fact misquoting the actual rules which IMO is even worse than just being wrong. Because that makes him look dishonest.I want to throw out a question here for people to consider.Does Ord need to be fixed in general, or only the old ones? Take Prockets for example, those aren't so bad and see play. Because they are actually worth the points.So does the old stuff need to be fixed or is the game better suited by making new stuff that's actually useful? I could see it either way, but thought I'd throw it out to everyone else.

Please youre the only dishonest one. You are a flat out liar at this point. Anyone can read the rules that I linked. It directly states and I quote people are assumed to be familiar with the rules, faqs, and tournament rules for premier play and that those rules will be strictly enforced. How in the world do you take that to mean that there is no requirement to be up to date on the rules, faqs, and erratas? You can claim I am wrong all you want but it just makes you look like a liar considering I only quoted the rules and gave you the link to verify it yourself.

Btw I am still waiting for that developer quote stating they will never update the core rules via errata and will only update the game via upgrade cards, because I am quite certain at this point that it has nothing to do with my ability to locate that conversation in a video and more a problem with your ability to just make stuff up.

To any your question most ordinance is quite bad. Prockets are neither efficient or good. They might be playable but that doesn't mean it doesn't need a small fix such as allowing ordinance to be adjusted by the tokens required to activate it. There are a handful of decent ordinance. Not really competitive but decent. Things like concussion and assault missiles have a place but even those could use the ability to use their action token.

Lets stop with the acrimony. Accusing people of "mak[ing] stuff up" doesn't advance the conversation.

Nor, really, should the conversation be centered around FF's ability to get news of a rule change to the player-base at large.

Instead, we should concentrate on discussing a good, solid fix. Something that makes munitions a great expenditure of points, without overpowering all other options. We can even discuss whether or not it's a good idea to fix munitions at all.

If we come up with an idea that is a) good and b) easy to implement, you can bet that the designers at Fantasy Flight will either pick up on it, or think of it themselves. Figuring out how to communicate it to us is their problem, and would use their toolset- a toolset that we don't really know the full extent of.

So lets get back on track: should munitions be fixed? If so: how? How would we know that munitions had hit the "sweet spot" of good, but not overpowering?

What about the warheads that use target lock automatically get the benefits of target lock from their use? Wouldn't that help?

Yes, because the whole problem of ordnance is they require an action for TL, but don't get to modify their die rolls. Why would a Rookie spend 4 pts on a Proton Torpedo when he can just TL for about the same number of hits?

I had an idea for this mod. I realize that it invalidates Munition failsafe, but that was an attempt by ffg that didn't do enough.

Munitions Magazine - 0 pts Modification

Any time you use Ordinance flip it over instead of discarding it.

Action: You may flip any used ordinance card back face up.

This would help addess the cost issue of ordinance but would prevent them from being to powerfull as you cant use them every turn, unless your PTL or Vader.

It would also make then much more fluffy, since most ships, especially bombers carried dozens of muntions each. Also this would make the munitions failure crit much more feared.

This fix requires a minor change to the rules. Flipping cards over instead of discarding them, but other than that I think its a pretty elegant fix.

Also points cost could be tweaked but I feel that Ordinance is a little exspensive as is for a one use weapon.

I also like the idea of getting to use your TL when you discard it to fire ordinance.

This is the easiest way to go. You leave in place all the restrictions of target lock/focus and range while removing the single biggest barrier to people taking ordnance - the notion that you're only carrying one shot's worth of whatever missile or torpedo they spent an exorbitant amount of points for.

I still wouldn't bother in most cases to bring ordnance even if I got to shoot it twice. If you can't modify the hit, it still won't do damage. Why bother giving someone the ability to do low damage averages for two rounds?

Nor, really, should the conversation be centered around FF's ability to get news of a rule change to the player-base at large.

But it is part of the discussion. How something is implemented is very much part of the discussion.

For example a fix that requires that all existing cards be reprinted is not a workable fix. That doesn't mean the core of the idea is faulty but how it is implemented may be.

For example, any fix that simply changes it so the TL is no longer spent, needs be done in a form that doesn't involve errata of some sort.

We can even discuss whether or not it's a good idea to fix munitions at all.

My issue with it is this. They'll never get anything that really approaches the lore versions of those systems. So perhaps the whole idea is simply bad from the start, perhaps the very idea of fitting something like proton torpedoes which are used against Cap Ships into a dog fighting game wasn't a good idea.

IMO the best fix I saw, was in another page, but required a small tweak.

A modification, call it Targeting System, could cost 0-2 points perhaps.

When firing a Missile, all <evade> results are changed to <focus> results. When firing a Torpedo all <crit> results deal a face up damage card. Bypassing the shields.

This would make both missiles and torpedoes fairly deadly without making them IMO overpowered. It wouldn't make any existing item obsolete, or require a change to the core rules in anyway.

Barrel roll was actually changed in the rule book via FAQ between wave 4 and 5 regarding large ships before the release of yt1300 which had it natively even though it was used extensively since wave 2 on the yt2400. However you are right the quick reference cards have been historically used to add or expand existing rules.

To improve ordinance ffg doesn't even need to separate ordinance from secondary weapons they could just change the section in the core rule book about secondary weapons using action tokens to activate. That is the only place where those rules are explained. And allowing secondary weapons to use those action tokens as modifiers on their atk goes a long way to fixing ordinance. Also there is only 1 non ordinance in game that requires a token to activate and that canon also has the same issues as ordinance in that it is considered inefficient because of this loss of action economy.

That was a big change but remember large ships are not in the core rule book. They are additional rules. Now there could be in a later future (say a couple of years from now) a new core set with a new core rule book and starting ships for all 3 factions, that may have new additions to the mechanics such as different dice or even different damage deck cards (still missing as "I lost Ar-too" critical damage card. However until then there will be a new core rule set which could have some serious changes and may include rules for expansions such as large ships.

Yes, because the whole problem of ordnance is they require an action for TL, but don't get to modify their die rolls. Why would a Rookie spend 4 pts on a Proton Torpedo when he can just TL for about the same number of hits?

Proton torpedoes do have dice modifiers in their mechanics. Not the same as a target lock or focus. Sure turning a single focus result into a crit is not that big of a deal but when you add that an extra dice and removal of the range 3 defender bonus it adds up. Now it is very situational and the spending of 4 points in comparison of just a standard target lock reroll of 3 dice along with letting them have the extra evade dice isn't really that much worse off.

So is it still worth the 4 points? Not all the time, and by not all the time I mean not every game and that is where we get the problem. If it is not guaranteed to have a good effect every game then it is a waste of points.

Nor, really, should the conversation be centered around FF's ability to get news of a rule change to the player-base at large.

But it is part of the discussion. How something is implemented is very much part of the discussion.

For example a fix that requires that all existing cards be reprinted is not a workable fix. That doesn't mean the core of the idea is faulty but how it is implemented may be.

If there's a fix that's so good it simply _must_ be implemented, I feel confident that FF will figure out a way to communicate that fix to the community. Let them worry about it.

What we can do- all we can do- is theorycraft fixes with the general understanding that we're just talking to ourselves. The only real value this has is a) house rules and b) helping us as players understand this game better. If we have a solid understanding of why ordinance is generally not worth the points, and a solid understanding of how to fix it, we will understand other systems well enough to make great use of them.

For instance: a new player who has never used a torpedo before, and is reading this thread, will see that a major problem is that you can't use target lock to reroll dice when you're using a torpedo. From there, they will have an understanding of how important that reroll is, and will know why predator is a good card, and why target locks generally are valuable even when not firing torpedoes. Knowing exactly how powerful rerolls are is something that a lot of players take a longer time to grasp than they maybe should.

At the same time, a newer player will have read a discussion about the difficulties of reliably getting into range 1-2 of a higher PS target with a lower PS ship. That's a useful thing to learn early in your X-Wing career!

So if we come up with an awesome fix that would require FF to reprint _every card in the game_, it's still a valuable thing to learn, and still a valuable discussion to have. And at that point we should know that FF will never implement it.

From an early development stage of X-Wing:

No 'Spend your target lock' and crits were auto direct hits.

Very interesting, this does bring up the question why do you have to spend your target lock then.

My guess was to balance it with the Tie Fighters that has no secondary weapons.

This almost should be its own thread. Thanks for the history lesson, it does share some valuable insight.

Actually there was no attack value printed on the Proton Torps upgrade card.

This could mean that the ships attack value was used which in this case would be a '2'.

I'm not sure about this to be honest.

Also notice the price in credits: 8 for the Rookie and 2 for the torps.

Looks like the Protons we have in game now are much better then this...

Is that:

4 agility

2 attack

1 hull

2 shields

Huh. That's... an interesting stat line!

If there's a fix that's so good it simply _must_ be implemented

How the fix is implemented is part of the fix though. For example, a fix that involves the EPT, is not a good fix. Also a fix that makes Munitions Failsafe obsolete is IMO a bad fix. You can't just divorce the fix from the implication of the fix.

That all said... The idea of being able to keep the TL is IMO not a good one. If it was as simple as being able to keep the TL, then Homing Missiles would be fairly popular, since you don't spend the TL to use them. But they're not, so just keeping the TL won't help enough.

I think the key is giving a little more control, doing something to increase the avg damage above what you'd get from a primary attack. That's one of the thing that make HLC popular and worth the 7 points, because you can count on it doing enough damage to be worth the points.

Here are more ... from the same age ...

Just because it might be interesting:

Found at:

http://thehopelessgamer.blogspot.de/2011/08/just-in-from-gencon-x-wing-and-star.html

Is that:

4 agility

2 attack

1 hull

2 shields

Huh. That's... an interesting stat line!

No, I think it's this (note the pilot modifier):

4 hull

2 attack

2 agility

2 shields

And based on that other picture, the Red Squadron pilot would have 1 extra attack and 1 less agility.

I don’t think a fix should come by FAQ as some have pointed out not everyone reads FAQs. A lot of people just buy the ships and play at home with friends. most stores will tell you this they are lucky if 1 third of the people who buy the ships come back and play casual or tournament. so anyway to fix the problem via FAQ won't work for everyone. I didn't see anyone talk about point reduction this has the same problem as FAQ how do you tell everyone about it.

The best Idea is an upgrade card maybe in a Bomber Aces pack with other new toys

My Idea's

"Title" for all ships that can take Torps and Missiles

"Ordnance Specialist" when you spend your target lock to perform an attack with a Missile or Torp assignee your ship 1 focus token

0-1 pt

or

"Title" for all ships that can take Torps and Missiles

"Ordnance Specialist" if you have a target lock an enemy ship all other ships with Missiles or Torps may also acquire a target lock if in range

2 pts "Unique"

and

"Modification"

"Auto Guidance system" You may fire your Missiles or Torps without the need to spend or have a Target Lock

0pts

Not in these words but you can see where I'm going

I would love to combine the first "Ordnance Specialist" with "Auto Guidance system" a Gold or Scimitar would be able to fire the Ordnance without tokens then still be able to modify there dice

what do you all think?