Okay so we all know the one shot spend your tokens for no modifications discard your weapon and count points lost if miss weapons are looking rather pail when you compare them to reusable cannons and turret weapons. So coming up with some ideas for missiles and torpedoes to help the ones that are out. However some considerations have to be made first.

So before we do something like put a modification that say reload all discarded weapons (a poor idea IMHO) lets take a look at missiles and torpedoes as well as upgrade slots for all factions.

• missiles and torpedoes are in the secondary weapon category along with cannons and turrets. Any thing that benefits ATTACK header upgrades also benefits cannons as well (So munitions failure no longer has that much of an effect).
• All ships have modification upgrades, there is already a modification that works very well with ordnance so any further upgrades in this slot should be used sparingly as this slot is the most likely spilling out Super Dash and Fat Han
• There are 4 Imperial ships and 4 rebel ships that have the missile upgrade slot. As well as the scum counterparts and the title that would likely be used for cannon upgrades. Included are the YT-1300 and the YT-2400.
• There are 4 Rebel ships 2 Imperial ships and 1 unique title and 2 S&V ships along with a title that have torpedo upgrade slots.
• All ships with astromech slots have torpedo slots.
• Only big ships have both crew and missile slots 2 Rebel and 1 Imperial/S&V. One big Imperial ship has both torpedo and crew slot with an additional unique title.
• Only B-wings and E-wing (as well as the Tie Advance when the Raider comes out) has both a sensor slot and a torpedo slot.

With those facts (current as of Jan 2015) out of the way. Lets take a look at upgrades and what benefits they would do.

• A better missile upgrade would help the YT-flying fortress unless there is a restriction like agility bonuses (proton rockets).
• A better torpedo upgrade would help the rebels the most, S&V second, and Imperials the least.
• An astromech upgrade will only help rebels (likewise salvaged astromech will only help S&V) and it will only be able to synergies with torpedoes.
• A crew upgrade that synergies with munitions would help the Big turreted ships, B-wings, and Firesprays. (would need some proton rocket crafting to make that benefit less useful to the ships that don't need anymore help)
• Sensor slots will help out with torpedoes on the E-wings and B-wings and with missiles on the Tie Advanced as well as the titled Star Viper.
• Modifications help every ship but would be competing with munitions failsafe which already corrects a major design flaw with missile and torpedo secondary weapons.
• Titles only help one kind of ship and not the whole problem with missiles and torpedoes.

So now those in mind here are some things I came up with to help with the big problem munitions have (Action economy and point expenditure.) disclaimer there is gaps on stuff like point cost and determination weather an upgrade should be unique, limited, or not.

I have already posted some ideas for TIE bombers so I'll just leave the link here. Please take a look at them as well before commenting on this post.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127720-upgrade-ideas-for-tie-bomber/

Okay so an Astromech upgrade Idea. Again I have posted this in another post when someone was suggesting a cost reduction idea. Instead of a gerneral cost reduction I thought it would be better used with cards that are in need of serious card reduction but cannot just simply change a card that has already been printed so here it is.

R something astromech (can't decide that should be a unique upgrade or not.)

If this ship has a torpedo secondary weapon equiped this card has a negative point cost (-2).

Astromech slot point cost (0)

This simply provides a discount for rebel torpedoes. Now some might argue that it isn't fare for the Rebels to get all the discounts (with cards like chardan refit) and they would be right. So when designing this card there needs to be other advantages to the other factions that are not available to rebels to balance it out. It sort of add some theme with Rebels being cheap and efficient, S&V stealing tokens and stuff, and Imperials causing extra damage. So if this card is added there will need to be some more stealing for S&V and more damage spread for Imperials that are just as effective.

Now on to a crew upgrade to help the Firespray and munitions without giving Han a hand (because Luke already gave him one ha ha okay not funny anymore )

Ordnance Droid (or some other crew name, again unique or not.)

If you discarded an upgrade card to perform a secondary attack you may reroll all your attack dice for this attack. You must reroll as many dice as possible. You then cannot make any additional attacks for this round.

Crew slot point cost 3(or somewhere between 2 & 4)

So this tacks on Han's ability with missiles for Firesprays B-wings and the YT-freighters as well for Torpedoes for Decimators and the Slave 1 unique title Firesprays. It already has Han already has this ability ability so this card wont help him any. The additional cannot make any additional attacks this round is meant to stop annoying combos with Luke/gunner that would make this card just broken. Now as for cluster missiles this will only work on the second attack as using this upgrade will cancel the second attack if you use it on the first attack. Still need to work the point thing out a little. This upgrade would be too powerful to be a 0 or 1 point cost but still to add additional point investment for a one attack weapon is absurd right now.

So as for a sensor slot to finalize it all. Well how about this for a thought.

​Weapon guidance system.

​If you just spent a target lock to perform an attack with a secondary weapon immediately acquire a target lock on the defender. After the attack you must discard all blue target lock tokens

Sensor slot point cost 4

Okay so it almost doubles to cost of proton torpedoes for E-wings however with the proposed astromech droid .upgrade the point cost is down to 2 more points. For B-wings they can double up on torpedoes so they get twice the effect of this card. Tie Advanced can get this for free which is the real target of this upgrade card. The TL discard effect again is to make sure that it is only used for torpedoes and missiles.

Well that is all for today. What are some of your ideas? What are your thoughts on my suggestions, please comment below oh and don't forget about the Tie Bomber thread.

... there is already a modification that works very well with ordnance ...

Which modification would that be? Munitions failsafe is not worth the point.

FFG tried to fix ordnance via the modification slot and failed. In order to fix ordnance one might as well use the modification slot.

If you discarded an upgrade card to perform a secondary attack you may reroll all your attack dice for this attack. You must reroll as many dice as possible. You then cannot make any additional attacks for this round.

That has a funny interaction with munitions failsafe: You do not discard the secondary weapon until you know if the attack hits. At that time you can no longer modify (reroll) your dice.

Now I've seen a couple of suggestions of late that try and use an astromech as a negative point modifier, but with no other purpose. Every astromech in the game has some kind of purpose, and if you want to come up with a new one, then it too needs a purpose.

from the Wookiepedia:

An astromech droid's primary purpose on a smaller ship such as a starfighter was as a backup or replacement for a nav computer. The droid also provided in-flight maintenance and repair, and performed a number of routine functions so the pilot could focus on flying the ship.

Since the TIE Advanced title came out, people seem to be keen on coming up with any sort of upgrade just with the sole purpose of giving it a negative point cost.

I think the problem is so fundamental that an upgrade card wouldn't work. A ship shouldn't need to use up a modification/astromech/passenger slot etc just to make a basic ordnance slot work.

The best remedy is a fix to the core rules: when a secondary weapon requires the expenditure of a Target Lock or Focus, the resulting attack may take the usual benefit of the TL or F if required. So most missiles could use the TL reroll, and Deadeye/Blaster Turrets get to use the focus on the dice.

If the shot doesn't need the reroll, then fine, but the token is still spent.

Han doesn't benefit as much as other ships, since he naturally has the poor man's TL anyway, he just gets to be more choosy about his dice.

This means that established ordnance does not require a points fix, and is somewhat more worth taking.

The most significant challenge is probably Heat Seeking Missiles, since these don't have to spend the TL and are presumably costed to reflect this. I'd suggest a fluffy fix to this is that HSMs do not require the target to be in the attacker's firing arc - heat seeking missiles can track a target anywhere within range.

An ordnance thread? Here is my response:

Make torpedoes and missiles ignore shields.

The lore from the movies support this - the rebels had to use torpedoes agains the death star because it was ray shielded.

There would be no need to errata any ordnance card printed, so nothing is invalidated.

Lots of under utilized cards will see renewed use. Deadeye, expert handling, and R4-D6 are examples.

Ordnance gains its place as large ship killers. Low agility ships vulnerable and must be protected, whereas a high agility ship has a chance to outfly the missile/torpedo by dodging.

I favor a mechanic errata. Errata and reprinting various munitions so that the lock is not discarded.

I would also support printing this modification I suggested on another threat:

"Extra Magazine 2pts

Modification

When an equipped (Torpedo icon) or (Missile Icon) upgrade card would be discarded by it's own effect, discard this card instead."

An ordnance thread? Here is my response:
Make torpedoes and missiles ignore shields.

The lore from the movies support this - the rebels had to use torpedoes agains the death star because it was ray shielded.

There would be no need to errata any ordnance card printed, so nothing is invalidated.

Lots of under utilized cards will see renewed use. Deadeye, expert handling, and R4-D6 are examples.

Ordnance gains its place as large ship killers. Low agility ships vulnerable and must be protected, whereas a high agility ship has a chance to outfly the missile/torpedo by dodging.

Making them ignore shields would screw over the Rebels I fear. Most imperial ships don't have shields anyways. It would just leave Imperials with a new anti-rebel weapon.

Additionally particle shielding is a thing, which ships have. Notably this is pointed out in the stele chronicles.

Keeping missile lock is good, fluff supported and sense supported. doubling ammo per card would probably be good too.

The best remedy is a fix to the core rules: when a secondary weapon requires the expenditure of a Target Lock or Focus, the resulting attack may take the usual benefit of the TL or F if required. So most missiles could use the TL reroll, and Deadeye/Blaster Turrets get to use the focus on the dice.

If the shot doesn't need the reroll, then fine, but the token is still spent.

I think this is the simplest and most elegant way to deal with the issue. There are no new cards required and all those weapons with requirements (that usually don't get used) get used. You only need an FAQ to do it and it won't unbalance the game. The Homing Missile is the only one shafted. For one extra point, they can't use an evade token. You could re-write it so that it gets a free Focus to be used with the shot, too, but I'd rather shaft one card and make the rest useful than the current situation.

Only B-wings and E-wing (as well as the Tie Advance when the Raider comes out) has both a sensor slot and a torpedo slot.

IIRC the Advanced has a missile slot, not a torpedo slot.

Regarding ordinance generally, I'd rather the underlying mechanics be tweaked based on weapon role.

What are Torpedos for? Shooting at installations and capital ships. What are missiles for? Shooting at agile, hard-to-hit small craft.

Add a rule card for Torpedos that says something like this:

When you attack a Small ship with a Torpedo weapon, it may add 2 Agility. When you attack a Large ship with a Torpedo weapon, it may add 1 Agility. When a Torpedo weapon successfully hits, every hit result deals 2 damage, and every critical hit result deals 2 critical hits.

Add a rule card for missiles that says something like this:

When you attack a Small or Large ship with a Missile weapon, if the Target's Agility is greater than 2, it is reduced to 2 for the attack.

This makes Torpedos devestating if you hit with them, but would make it much harder to hit small and agile ships while still leaving them super effective against less agile Large ships (YT-1300s and VT-49s) and extremely potent against Huge ships (which they should be).

It also makes MIssiles great at popping those super-high-agility ships that your cannons have a hard time pinning down. That's what they're really for, so make them good at it. Note, too, that it only caps Agility, not defensive dice, so Obstructions and other modifiers would still boost their defense.

The best remedy is a fix to the core rules: when a secondary weapon requires the expenditure of a Target Lock or Focus, the resulting attack may take the usual benefit of the TL or F if required. So most missiles could use the TL reroll, and Deadeye/Blaster Turrets get to use the focus on the dice.

If the shot doesn't need the reroll, then fine, but the token is still spent.

I think this is the simplest and most elegant way to deal with the issue. There are no new cards required and all those weapons with requirements (that usually don't get used) get used. You only need an FAQ to do it and it won't unbalance the game. The Homing Missile is the only one shafted. For one extra point, they can't use an evade token. You could re-write it so that it gets a free Focus to be used with the shot, too, but I'd rather shaft one card and make the rest useful than the current situation.

You could have the Homing Missile reduce the defenders agility by -1 to a minimum of 0. Makes sense and gives it a nice buff as well. It would be a super accurate munition.

I think the best solution to ordinance is this: if the attack hits, cancel all defense dice results before calculating damage. The reason for this is that if you dodge the missile or torpedo, you obviously take no damage. However, if you fail to evade, you take a serious hit. An alternative would be that if the attack hits, it deals damage equal to the attack value.

All this would take is a simple rule change and all ordinance would immediately become more useable. Additionally, you would have to take ships with ordinance more seriously.

I think the best solution to ordinance is this: if the attack hits, cancel all defense dice results before calculating damage.

I don't think that solution is practical: If the attack hits all evade results have already been canceled. There are no defense dice results left to cancel.

I think the best solution to ordinance is this: if the attack hits, cancel all defense dice results before calculating damage. The reason for this is that if you dodge the missile or torpedo, you obviously take no damage. However, if you fail to evade, you take a serious hit. An alternative would be that if the attack hits, it deals damage equal to the attack value.

All this would take is a simple rule change and all ordinance would immediately become more useable. Additionally, you would have to take ships with ordinance more seriously.

As much as torps and missiles need a buff, anything that increases the chance of a one shot kill is bad for the meta.

The primary reason C-3PO is so useful is because he takes a random chance and makes it a sure thing. So doing the same thing by making one hit kills even more likely is going to further drive the meta away from small ships that rely on evade dice to survive.

It may be more fitting with the lore, but it is broken in many ways and will do way more damage then good.

I agree. That's why I think just allowing you to use the TL or Focus is better. Defenders still get to evade, but the chances of you hitting goes up. It's still 4 pts for a Concussion Missile or Proton Torpedo, but your chances of actually doing damage are higher. It is still one shot. I feel that this removes the major problem of the attack not being worth the points without actually breaking it. Cheap ships with low PS still need to get the TL, which can be hard if you are always going first. You won't see a cheap swarm easily flown to blast someone to bits with the first volley. It can happen, but it isn't easy.

I also think that a decent ordnance fix will remove the dominance of the large, turreted ships. End their viability? Never, but reduce their dominance.

I think the best solution to ordinance is this: if the attack hits, cancel all defense dice results before calculating damage. The reason for this is that if you dodge the missile or torpedo, you obviously take no damage. However, if you fail to evade, you take a serious hit. An alternative would be that if the attack hits, it deals damage equal to the attack value.

All this would take is a simple rule change and all ordinance would immediately become more useable. Additionally, you would have to take ships with ordinance more seriously.

If you did something like this, you'd need to pull a Turbolaser-style change as well, making it much harder to hit initially. Say, double defensive dice (or just double Agility).

I'd prefer that, if this did happen, limit both to Torpedos only. Change missiles in a different fashion.

I agree. That's why I think just allowing you to use the TL or Focus is better.

I think that would be the best fix, but it also seems to run contrary to how FFG wants to do things. They don't want to errata cards, they would rather produce upgrades that fix things, rather than change the cards that have issues one way or the other.

I agree though that more ord could help reduce the amount of large ships. 5 Z-95's with cluster missiles for example are going to do on avg 3 damage per ship. That's 15 damage, which should kill even a Decimator with one volley.

I think FFG tries to address fixes in the easiest way. The A-wing cost too much. They came out with a fix for just the A-wing. The Tie Advanced wasn't worth the price. They came out with a fix for just the Tie Advanced.

Ordnance is used by many ships. How can they make a fix for them? It would be too hard. I believe FFG would find it easier to FAQ the fix to the above.

EDIT: In fact, it would stop the A-wing from being too powerful. You can't take the Refit if you take missiles. So, you won't have a lot of cheap A-wings with missiles.

Even the Homing Missile would still prevent you to not use evade tokens when you fire. That would stop the Falcon and not completely ruin the Homing Missile.

Also, Blaster Turrets would be worthwhile now, too. You could use the Focus when you fired.

I believe FFG would find it easier to FAQ the fix to the above.

As I said in a different thread about this... If you watch the interviews with them from GenCon and Worlds, you'll hear them talk about how they don't like FAQ'ing things, or using errata.

Alex (I think) said his biggest regret was giving the HWK 1 attack, but they won't go in and change it now. Because there's no way to get the updated stats to everyone, and part of FFG's philosophy is that every package sold plays the same way.

So yes it would be very easy for them to say they're going to change it so missiles and torpedoes don't need to spend the TL/Focus to be used. But that's also not something they don't seem willing to do because it goes against their design philosophy.

So any change to Ord, is going to have to be in the form of a upgrade card of some sort or another.

I favor a mechanic errata. Errata and reprinting various munitions so that the lock is not discarded.

I would also support printing this modification I suggested on another threat:

"Extra Magazine 2pts

Modification

When an equipped (Torpedo icon) or (Missile Icon) upgrade card would be discarded by it's own effect, discard this card instead."

An ordnance thread? Here is my response:

Make torpedoes and missiles ignore shields.

The lore from the movies support this - the rebels had to use torpedoes agains the death star because it was ray shielded.

There would be no need to errata any ordnance card printed, so nothing is invalidated.

Lots of under utilized cards will see renewed use. Deadeye, expert handling, and R4-D6 are examples.

Ordnance gains its place as large ship killers. Low agility ships vulnerable and must be protected, whereas a high agility ship has a chance to outfly the missile/torpedo by dodging.

Making them ignore shields would screw over the Rebels I fear. Most imperial ships don't have shields anyways. It would just leave Imperials with a new anti-rebel weapon.

Additionally particle shielding is a thing, which ships have. Notably this is pointed out in the stele chronicles.

I thought about this as well. You could make paeticle shielding an upgrade.

Particle Shielding

2 points

Modification

Your shields are not ignored by ordnance.

An ordnance thread? Here is my response:

Make torpedoes and missiles ignore shields.

The lore from the movies support this - the rebels had to use torpedoes agains the death star because it was ray shielded.

There would be no need to errata any ordnance card printed, so nothing is invalidated.

Lots of under utilized cards will see renewed use. Deadeye, expert handling, and R4-D6 are examples.

Ordnance gains its place as large ship killers. Low agility ships vulnerable and must be protected, whereas a high agility ship has a chance to outfly the missile/torpedo by dodging.

Making them ignore shields would screw over the Rebels I fear. Most imperial ships don't have shields anyways. It would just leave Imperials with a new anti-rebel weapon.

Actually, no. Of the 9 Imperial ships released so far, only 3 of them lack shields. I really like the ignoring shields idea. I may just house rule that and play that way from now on. It's very simple and elegant and doesn't really affect the cards themselves at all. It makes missiles and torpedoes scary like they should be. Most ships only have 2 or 3 hull so it brings a lot more of them into one-shot kill range. And if you're unable to finish off the target with just missiles and torpedoes, then you'll still have to take out the shields, so it feels balanced to me. Even if you can't kill the target, sneaking in critical hits while their shields are still up can be very helpful. And if FFG makes this rule official, then they could also add cards like flares and chaff to help protect against missiles and torpedoes.

Rule and card errata that drastically change what has already been written are out of the question. You got to think from the perspective of the new player who just bought a core set as well as players who are experienced with competitive lists.

Having a player who goes to a store after playing a few games with the core set and then buys enough to make their own squadron will be rather confused if all of a sudden proton torpedoes ignore shields or they no longer have to discard their target lock / upgrade card to use concussion missiles. Because that is not what is written on their cards and their rule book.

Sure it is important for players to read the FAQ and any eratta but the point of the FAQ and eratta is NOT to change the rules, but instead to clarify and if needed expand the rules to cover certain situations that may cause confusion.

Upgrades are the simplest fix because they don't have to change words that are already printed on cards and distributed.

Rule and card errata that drastically change what has already been written are out of the question. You got to think from the perspective of the new player who just bought a core set as well as players who are experienced with competitive lists.

Having a player who goes to a store after playing a few games with the core set and then buys enough to make their own squadron will be rather confused if all of a sudden proton torpedoes ignore shields or he they longer has to discard their target lock / upgrade card to use concussion missiles. Because that is not what is written on their cards and their rule book.

Sure it is important for players to read the FAQ and any eratta but the point of the FAQ and eratta is NOT to change the rules, but instead to clarify and if needed expand the rules to cover certain situations that may cause confusion.

Upgrades are the simplest fix because they don't have to change words that are already printed on cards and distributed.

While a modification can help, it should be an option, not a must have and also must be something every ordnance laden ship can use - which means it can't be an astromech or system slot upgrade. A ship modification is the only way.

Could a new set of dice be out of the question?

Ordnance dice could be released with a new expansion and could be optional for tournaments. Perhaps legal in the big ones like Regionals. The Die facing could be something like Blank, Focus, Focus, Focus, Hit, Crit, Crit, Crit.

They would be just as inaccurate, but would reward having a focus to spend. They also would have a higher chance to cause a Crit.

However, there is already precedent for drastic changes - the autoblaster and evade tokens.

That's not that drastic of a change really. The core rules don't really cover it one way or the other, so the only source of clarification was the FAQ to start with. Changing something as drastic as 'ignoring shields or evade dice' is way outside the scope of a FAQ. Because that's a change the core rules.

Could a new set of dice be out of the question?

New dice would work for a new torpedo or missile, but it would never be applied to the existing ones for the same reasons as above.