down with ACD! up with reversing the Advanced Sensors --> Cloak interaction errata !

KO do you think that list could have won a store championship if it happened in August?

Does this mean Academy Pilots are underpowered?

Does this mean Academy Pilots are underpowered?

Oh boy. If we get a "the Tie Fighter is now the worst ship in the game" thread, I think I'm gonna cry

Even though the turret ships are still stronger then phantoms as seen by the last worlds. I still think phantoms were a bit overpowered. However they did push the meta away from generics and brought back high ps ships. Turret ships will eventually fall off thier pedestal once things like 4xadvanced can focus fire it down in 2-3 turns but the phantom will still be an issue for a bit. However ffg devs kinda predicted it might be a bit much and they already had a fix planned just in case.

I can't wait for the imperial epic to come out so the meta can completely change again.

An etiquette/practicality question about reporting -- is it self-defeating to report partial results and/or to report in advance of another person who may have more complete results?

For example, I played in an event yesterday. I can accurately report the winning squad, the top four (although not in guaranteed order), a few other top 8 squads, and all the location/participation info. Prior to the event there was some discussion about other people recording complete info and eventually posting it, but I don't know if they still plan to. I don't know if the T.O. used Cryodex, or if he plans to report in himself.

Is it more prudent for me to post what I know, and let the rest trickle in as it may, under the assumption that all information is good information, and everything will be tied up and collated? Or is it better to contribute nothing until a complete report is available?

I would post the info here, then contact the TO at your local event to see if they have the results to submit.

In that case, here's my patchy version of yesterday's store championship:

Kessel Run Games Store Championship (Ottawa, ON, Canada)

5 rounds Swiss - 75 minute rounds -- 18 players in attendance

1st place:

Leebo (Predator, Heavy Laser Cannon, Recon Specialist, Outrider )

Chewbacca (Predator, Recon Specialist)

100 points

Top Four (I think I have these in order, but not 100% sure)

2nd place:

Blue Sq, Pilot (Tactician, B-Wing/E2)

Blue Sq, Pilot (Tactician, B-Wing/E2)

Blue Sq, Pilot (Tactician, B-Wing/E2)

Gold Sq. Pilot (Ion Cannon Turret, R3-A2)

100 points

3rd place:

Blue Sq, Pilot (Fire-Control System)

Blue Sq, Pilot (Fire-Control System)

Blue Sq, Pilot (Fire-Control System)

Blue Sq, Pilot (Fire-Control System, Jan Ors, B-Wing/E2)

99 points

4th place:

Captain Oicunn (Determination, Mara Jade, Anti-Pursuit Lasers, Dauntless )

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

98 points (unless I'm forgetting another Crew card on Oicunn, but I'm quite sure I have it correct)

Top Eight (not sure of the ordering here, unfortunately)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (Expose, Ysanne Isard, Rebel Captive, Experimental Interface)

Whisper (Veteran Instincts, Fire-Control System, Advanced Cloaking Device)

99 points

Han Solo (Push the Limit, Nien Nunb, Engine Upgrade, Millennium Falcon )

Blue Sq. Pilot

Blue Sq. Pilot

99 points

Lando Calrissian (unknown upgrades)

Chewbacca (unknown upgrades)

unknown points

-----------

That's most of what I can swear to. There was a nice variety of lists in general. The rest of the top eighteen included at least two multi-Interceptor builds, a double Decimator list, a Black Squadron + Predator TIE swarm, a couple of Corrans w/buddies, an Outrider Fringer, and even more that I'm forgetting or didn't get a look at.

Please keep in mind that this was a store championship with two players form the top 32 of worlds (and someone that probably plays with them often) running these lists. There are alot of sub par builds at most store championships, and even against the better builds, these are likely much more experienced players. Again, the final from fcb showed how even with a good list, and even after some good games with it, someone can make a poor desicion or two and go from an almost assured win to a landslide defeat. Experience matters in this game maybe even more than most games.

Or as we call it Monday night league games. The other player is familiar with phantoms but I am pretty sure it was his first time playing this particular list.

A single AP is a very weak addition. Four or a full on seven are still quite amazing when it comes to taking on even the hyper mobility of turreted fat arses.

If you can't beat one of the most commonly taken ship in the game, you're not going to do very well in a tourney.

They have a shot at turrets, but it's not a counter, more a 50-50 matchup(maybe 60-40 for the swarm but i'm not convinced).

Just to emphasize this, their were a ton of turrets present. Lots of 1300/2400 lists. And they still fell to dual phantoms. I ran Oicunn, Doom shuttle and BH.

I lost to that list twice, in one game killing Whisper in the first round of shooting and then loosing the remaining 30 HP of my list to Echo. In the second game I did 7 damage. 3 were done by ramming with Oicunn, 2 were done by using Vader and 2 were from actually shooting at the phantoms. That was a depressing round...

A single AP is a very weak addition. Four or a full on seven are still quite amazing when it comes to taking on even the hyper mobility of turreted fat arses.

I will respectfully disagree with that. KineticOperator has described in detail above how a single elite phantom was able to bring down an entire 100pnts force of low ps tie fighters/bombers, and in my experience this is pretty common.

If you can't beat one of the most commonly taken ship in the game, you're not going to do very well in a tourney.

They have a shot at turrets, but it's not a counter, more a 50-50 matchup(maybe 60-40 for the swarm but i'm not convinced).

Must be a player thing

I havn't run into the horror of the double phantom, Whisper I always found to be manageable with a few ties. A few blocked de-cloak lanes and some obstructions make her a lot easier predict. Do note, however, that I do not regularly encounter world caliber players in my local group

I also don't fly low PS swarms. I take it upon myself to always have a PS 9 or 10 guy at the head of every squad.

Just got back from a tournament having played my first real Tie Swarm with V.I howl-runner at the head and goddamn do they just obliterate Zs, Dashes, and Hans.

At Ease Games in San Diego CA.

Winning list:

Fat Dash + Corran: Dash, VI, Outrider, HLC, Leebo + Corran, PTL, Adv Sensors, R2D2, EU

Defeating

Fat Han: Han, VI, C3P0, Luke, EU, Falcon Title + Bandit +Tala + Tala

The rest of the Top 8 (in random order)

Fat Deci + Phantom: Rear Adm, VI, Gunner, Isaard, EU + Whisper, FCS, ACD, VI

Fat Han + Bees: Han, VI, Gunner, C3PO, Falcon + Blue x2

Rocket Aces: Corran, VI + Tycho, VI, Title, PTL, Proton Rockets + Jake, VI, Title, PTL, Proton Rockets.

Fat Dash + Corran: Dash, HLC, Predator, Recon, Outrider + Corran, R2D2, FCS, VI, Shield

Fat Deci + swarm: Rear Adm, EU, Tactician, Dauntless, VI, Rebel Captive + Howlrunner + Academy x2

Phantom Fett: Fett, Lone Wolf, EU, Isaard, Slave1, Ion Torps + Whisper, VI, FCS, ACD, Gunner

The event started at 12 noon (11AM check in) with 41 in attendance (with one drop out after round 2 IIRC). The final match ended around 1:20 AM. Age range of the players ran from mid 50s down to a 10 yo girl (who won a game thus avoiding the Golden Spoon Award). A VERY good start to our 2015.

(EDIT) Their were several variations of Decimator+Phantom lists, a dual Deci, Twin Falcon, 4 Bees, and the like. High PS, 3 ship builds (with 1 ship being a turret) were very common. I went 2-2 on the day, losing to a YT1300 + 3xTala list and the above Fat Han + Swarm list.

My list was Rear Adm, Determination, Mara, Vader + Carnor Jax, PTL + Howlrunner.

KO do you think that list could have won a store championship if it happened in August?

I do. In fact, it won this store championship under Jonathan's guidance (the addition of the AP probably had as much effect on the operation of the list as adding a single R2 to a Rookie would, as in not enough to consider it a different list). Also, I was one brain-fart away from a near certain win over Jonathan, but instead managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory (lol, the correct quote was censored) and hand not one, but both Phantoms over to him on a platter (uncloaked, range 1, in front of his Phantoms with no shot) with a single incorrectly placed dial. Which of course is the weakness of Phantoms (and why they appeal to me), they are never more than a single mistake away from total disaster. Also, Jonathan ran the same list (albeit with the AP) and did in fact win. The addition of the AP is at best a non-factor, and sometimes a detriment, and the two Phantoms were completely identical in all respects. After the observations he made to me about his experience with the AP vs. our experiences with out it I would be surprised if he bothered to bring the AP in the future.

On record, I just want to say I do not believe Phantoms are overpowered. I DO believe they are too extreme. Their good matchups are far too good, and their bad matchups are far too bad, which is a negative (IMO) in an environment where you have fixed lists throughout the course of a tournament. A "sideboard" such as exists in MtG allows a player to adjust when they meet a hard-counter, nothing of the sort exists here so I would prefer ships that are a little less "all or nothing".

On the other hand, I do love flying Phantoms. :-)

So, here's our report for At Ease Games in San Diego. I will at some point do List Juggler. I feel like a dork -- I killed myself putting a spreadsheet together, but it looks like I could probably have used Crypdex. Whoops.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lgazvez2h8tykta/ateasechamps.png

I played in the tournament in Indepebdence (Kansas City) and it was a grat tournament. We had a great mix of players, from those who just started, to those who have been playing since Kessel Run. And there was a good variation of lists IMHO. I played against the double phantoms three times and won two of three. I flew Han, Determination, Falcon, Gunner, C-3PO with Corran, FCS, PTL, R2-D2. I played both of the 86 point lists in the first six rounds and was able to pull out wins, then had to face one of them again in the first round of Top 8, and lost to it there. All three were tight games that I think could have gone either way. It was kinda fun to sit across from double phantom and have the player say, "huh, I need to take initiative". I also tested before the tournament against the champ who ran the list with the AP, and I think the list with the AP was harder for me to handle. Granted I got to aggressive with Coran that game and so lost, but still, I say you can't ignore the AP. If you do, a good player will find a way to make him hurt you, at least a little. And when the matches are that close, a little hurt goes a LONG way!! I can see though how in some match ups, the AP would do more to get in the way of the Phantoms then help them (insert mental image of Echo waving hands saying "would you just go away!). Yes Phantoms are tough, but not OP. If they were, then anyone could just put one on the board and watch their opponents crumble. No, just as with most of the good ships, you still have to know what you are doing to make the ship its most effective. I am in no way saying that new player can't fly them and fly them well, cause I've seen it happen. I'm just saying you have to fly the ship and truly learn what it does to get the most out of her. The player I have seen have the most success with phantoms are ones that fly them, a lot.

KO do you think that list could have won a store championship if it happened in August?

I do. In fact, it won this store championship under Jonathan's guidance (the addition of the AP probably had as much effect on the operation of the list as adding a single R2 to a Rookie would, as in not enough to consider it a different list). Also, I was one brain-fart away from a near certain win over Jonathan, but instead managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory (lol, the correct quote was censored) and hand not one, but both Phantoms over to him on a platter (uncloaked, range 1, in front of his Phantoms with no shot) with a single incorrectly placed dial. Which of course is the weakness of Phantoms (and why they appeal to me), they are never more than a single mistake away from total disaster. Also, Jonathan ran the same list (albeit with the AP) and did in fact win. The addition of the AP is at best a non-factor, and sometimes a detriment, and the two Phantoms were completely identical in all respects. After the observations he made to me about his experience with the AP vs. our experiences with out it I would be surprised if he bothered to bring the AP in the future.

On record, I just want to say I do not believe Phantoms are overpowered. I DO believe they are too extreme. Their good matchups are far too good, and their bad matchups are far too bad, which is a negative (IMO) in an environment where you have fixed lists throughout the course of a tournament. A "sideboard" such as exists in MtG allows a player to adjust when they meet a hard-counter, nothing of the sort exists here so I would prefer ships that are a little less "all or nothing".

On the other hand, I do love flying Phantoms. :-)

I agree and I don't think the complaints are as much about the Phantom itself as the ACD, if the ACD was restricted to the generics (hmm what a weird possibility, calling this happening in the future at some point "generic only upgrades") or if it gave stress or something it would have been considered "more balanced".

I was actually talking to a guy in my area who said he made the mistake of buying 4 Phantoms, to me it doesn't feel that bad a list of 4 Phantoms would in my opinion fly much like a 4X list, you have a better dial, extra attack and evade/barrel roll, and you can cloak if you won't have a shot. Granted you do lose a hull and probably a point of PS (or you actually gain a point of PS) but I think it would be a fun list to use on a casual night sometime

Hmmmm.....looking at the winning lists.....well, and the losing lists....it seems if I can get good with my 4 Tie Bomber list then I should do well. Using Jonus for re-rolls and plastering big ships with ordnance will do well for me.

Need to actuallly practice more....

I was actually talking to a guy in my area who said he made the mistake of buying 4 Phantoms, to me it doesn't feel that bad a list of 4 Phantoms would in my opinion fly much like a 4X list, you have a better dial, extra attack and evade/barrel roll, and you can cloak if you won't have a shot. Granted you do lose a hull and probably a point of PS (or you actually gain a point of PS) but I think it would be a fun list to use on a casual night sometime

Four Phantoms are great. I've flown that list quite a few times.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Public Service Announcement : If you are a TO running an event and using Cryodex (highly recommended, especially for getting us results!), be sure to upgrade to version 3.6, which fixes some bugs in the previous version. Direct link:
https://github.com/Killerardvark/Cryodex/raw/master/Cryodex.jar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We now resume our regularly scheduled discussion.

Well...it's 3.7 now, but same link. I'm getting stuff done! JSON output is next.

Just because three people at one store did well with this list simply proves that they figured out the meta AT THAT STORE. While I do applaud the gutsy choice to leave 14 points on the table, it seems like it was a well thought out strategy.

2 ship lists are a huge part of the meta now, in case you have been under a rock, because waves 4 and 5 are all about the PS.

Also, I'd like to know more about this variety of lists they went up against.

I hope somebody brings this list this Saturday.

Singapore BattleBunker Store Champs (16players)

4 rounds of swiss followed by cut to top 4 single elimination

[1]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commander Kenkirk (53)
Lone Wolf
Ysanne Isard
Darth Vader

Whisper (44)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Gunner
Advanced Cloaking Device

[2]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commander Kenkirk (59)
Lone Wolf
Mara Jade
Ysanne Isard
Darth Vader
Hull Upgrade

Whisper (40)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Intelligence Agent
Advanced Cloaking Device

[3]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Han Solo (61)
Predator
C-3P0
R2D2
Millennium Falcon
Engine Upgrade

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

[4]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Han Solo (61)
Veteran Instincts
Luke Skywalker
Lando Calrissian
Millennium Falcon
Experimental Interface

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

[5]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commander Kenkirk (52)
Determination
Darth Vader
Ysanne Isard
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)

[6]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Patrol Leader (46)
Darth Vader
Rebel Captive

Howlrunner (18)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)

[7]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Soontir Fel (34)
Push the Limit
Shield Upgrade

Whisper (40)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Intelligence Agent
Advanced Cloaking Device

Omnicron Group Pilot (24)
Darth Vader

[8]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Han Solo (60)
Push the Limit
Kyle Katarn
C3-PO
Millennium Falcon
Engine Upgrade

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)
Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

[9]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Han Solo (62)
Push the Limit
C3-PO
Gunner
Millennium Falcon
Engine Upgrade

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

[10]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commander Kenkirk (52)
Determination
Darth Vader
Ysanne Isard

Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)
Academy Tie Pilot (12)

[11]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commander Kenkirk (56)
Lone Wolf
Darth Vader
Ysanne Isard
Rebel Captive

Whisper
Veteran Instincts
Gunner
Fire Control System
Advanced Cloaking Device

[12]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commander Kenkirk (57)
Determination
Darth Vader
Gunner
Ysanne Isard

Whisper (42)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Recon Specialist
Advanced Cloaking Device

[13]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keyan Farlander (39)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Heavy Laser Cannon

Biggs Darklighter (25)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

[14]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dash Rendar (52)
Predator
Heavy Laser Cannon
Lando Calrissian
Experimental interface

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)
Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

[15]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whisper (44)
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Gunner
Advanced Cloaking Device

Echo (42)
Lone Wolf
Advanced Sensors
Recon Specialist
Advanced Cloaking Device

[16]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (57)
Determination
Ysanne Isard
Moff Jerigerrod
Intelligence Agent
Hull Upgrade

Patrol Leader (43)
Darth Vader

note that there is only 1 list that did not include a Falcon, ACD Phantom nor Decimator, and he is at 13th place. That player came in 2nd for our Regionals last year with a Falcon 3 Zs list.

What a monotonous wasteland

That is pretty sad.

Doesn't worry me too much. Every list had 1 of these 3 ships? Better than "every list had a falcon".