fixed, sorry, I did something dumb. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=56

that is a monster mov by the winner!

Not an error, both players were running 86 point lists.

Just......wow.....

Goes to show just how screwed up a Whisper and Echo tag team list is.

Depends on who was flying them. There are some people in that part of the country that carry some serious intimidation to the table. I'm hoping they make it down to the team covenant store championship so I can get a feel for how good they really are.

Not an error, both players were running 86 point lists.

Just......wow.....

Goes to show just how screwed up a Whisper and Echo tag team list is.

Depends on who was flying them. There are some people in that part of the country that carry some serious intimidation to the table. I'm hoping they make it down to the team covenant store championship so I can get a feel for how good they really are.

Sounds like it was a competitive tournament overall and their opponents weren't slouches either. I don't think there are any other lists/ships where people would attempt to leave 14 points at home and expect to do so well, even the top players.

But what's the use of leaving so many points?

Put a AP in, at worst you won't use it

But what's the use of leaving so many points?

Put a AP in, at worst you won't use it

Prove a point, maybe?

Strategically, it's worth pointing out that they can't put an AP in if they want better than a 2 point initiative bid.

Hi guys - crossposting an important post over from the Juggler thread; your help greatly appreciated!

But what's the use of leaving so many points?

Put a AP in, at worst you won't use it

I am guessing it's a hit and run strategy by playing an MOV game.

All they have to do is knock off one or two support ships, then dance around for the rest of the game and not die. An Academy would be much easier for the opponent to knock off than the phantoms, and the lost points would go against the slim MOV victory - so better just to leave the Academy off the list.

An interesting strategy, if that's what they were really up to. Can't think of any other explanation beside a slight initiative bump...

An interesting strategy, if that's what they were really up to. Can't think of any other explanation...

I have a few of their games on film and it didn't seem to the the strategy. Statement is the far better explanation, and neither player really seemed to think the Tie was necessary when asked from what I heard.

The point was that they didn't need an academy. In one of the games the academy from one side only served as an easy target to give a phantom a free cloak. So including that academy actually hurt its owner.

An etiquette/practicality question about reporting -- is it self-defeating to report partial results and/or to report in advance of another person who may have more complete results?

For example, I played in an event yesterday. I can accurately report the winning squad, the top four (although not in guaranteed order), a few other top 8 squads, and all the location/participation info. Prior to the event there was some discussion about other people recording complete info and eventually posting it, but I don't know if they still plan to. I don't know if the T.O. used Cryodex, or if he plans to report in himself.

Is it more prudent for me to post what I know, and let the rest trickle in as it may, under the assumption that all information is good information, and everything will be tied up and collated? Or is it better to contribute nothing until a complete report is available?

I'd say if you have enough information for it to be valuable there's no reason to hold it back (ie you're posting venue, attendance, full lists for at least the top 2 minimum and then whatever from there is a bonus, basically as long as it's not just "I came second in Canada with Fat Han").

If someone wants to come along later with a more thorough report they can, I can't see why anyone would be upset.

An etiquette/practicality question about reporting -- is it self-defeating to report partial results and/or to report in advance of another person who may have more complete results?

For example, I played in an event yesterday. I can accurately report the winning squad, the top four (although not in guaranteed order), a few other top 8 squads, and all the location/participation info. Prior to the event there was some discussion about other people recording complete info and eventually posting it, but I don't know if they still plan to. I don't know if the T.O. used Cryodex, or if he plans to report in himself.

Is it more prudent for me to post what I know, and let the rest trickle in as it may, under the assumption that all information is good information, and everything will be tied up and collated? Or is it better to contribute nothing until a complete report is available?

I would post the info here, then contact the TO at your local event to see if they have the results to submit.

Ah, leave it to the germans to put together a group of very strong lists for a store championship.

Phantoms so good 86 point lists are ok.

Phantoms so good 86 point lists are ok.

If all the Dash was Han I don't think it would have gone down like that.

Phantoms so good 86 point lists are ok.

If all the Dash was Han I don't think it would have gone down like that.

There was a surprising lack of Dash. Saw more non Dash 2400 than Dash, and quite a few Han.

Phantoms so good 86 point lists are ok.

If all the Dash was Han I don't think it would have gone down like that.

think of it this way:

In many games I have played I never actually utilize some of my cards. I've had some Han lists where Luke never activated for most games of a tourney. That's 7 points I could have left off and gotten similar results. It just depends on matchups.

I put the list together, and my buddy decided he wanted to run it also. It was a coincidence that Jonathan ran it as well. Jonathan did add the AP, but several times (especially when playing me) he acknowledged that the AP was a liability, not a boon.

So, 3 of these lists were entered, and they took 3/4 of the top spots (with one eliminating another). It was clearly not a factor of having a large number of entries, all 3 of the lists placed.

The reasoning was three fold. First, I like to be cute with my lists. No real way around that, I like running quirky lists and this definitely qualified. Second, I wanted to prove a point, that Phantoms are exceptionally strong ships, falling only when your opponent has a full-on hard counter in his list, and being otherwise nigh-invincible (barring a catastrophic mistake on your part). Thirdly, because tournaments use MoV, taking an Academy TIE is a strict liability, providing your opponent with an easy 12 points every game.

Tactically, within a single game an AP is also more a liability in this list than a help. Once eliminated, those 12 points mean that you are losing the match unless you eliminate a ship. You must eliminate at least 2 ships to win at all if you lose the AP. It is far easier to snipe a straggler with 2 Phantoms than it is to bring 2 ships down, unless/until you are forced to engage, and not losing an AP means you can enter the shooting phase at the time best suited to you. You can also guarantee the initiative, which puts further pressure on your opponent to chase you down rather than engage on his terms, giving you more opportunity to pull down a straggler. Finallly, both Echo and Whisper weigh in at fewer points than any of the top 3 ships, namely Dash, Han, and Corran Horn. In a game where you are able to eliminate your opponent's key ship for the loss of one of yours, you still hold a victory.

So, the 14 points and the sacrifice of an AP was not just showing away, but had real practical value for this list. In other lists you could make use of the AP, but here the initiative (tactically and points wise) was just too critical to give up by either chancing the initiative bid or losing the AP early. Also, and far more to the point, I like running oddball lists and this put it squarely in that category.

Of note: I played a game vs. a modified TIE swarm (4 AP, Bomber with Prox, Delta with Ion). I took an extremely unlikely ion hit on Echo (unfocused shot vs. Sensor Jammers, focus, and Stealthed Echo) while dealing 0 damage in return (despite gunner, FCS, and two Phantoms with focus firing on the same ship). The next turn the swarm turned on Echo and destroyed her, before I had dealt a single point of damage.

Whisper went on to destroy his entire list single handedly, losing only a single shield when I decided it was worth the risk to an undamaged Whisper to risk a mine in order to line up shots on two TIEs (sequentially). It was pretty much a textbook example of what Phantoms can do to low PS turretless ships. And Whisper was the least effective of the two vs. swarms, her job was to take on turrets while Echo was supposed to be the swarm counter.

think of it this way:

In many games I have played I never actually utilize some of my cards. I've had some Han lists where Luke never activated for most games of a tourney. That's 7 points I could have left off and gotten similar results. It just depends on matchups.

But what's the use of leaving so many points?

Put a AP in, at worst you won't use it

APs are useless these days: they get one-shotted by all the 4-5att and can't block because of the extreme maneuvrability of the new ships.

.

What is the consensus these days for Store Championships on Round times and round structure? There are only so many hours in a day that a store can be open and players can actually stick it out playing.

60 minutes over 75 minutes? Swiss rounds capped at 4 then a top 8 cut? Top 4? Just Swiss with as many as warranted by number of players, without a cut?

There seems to be a mix of the ones being held locally, here in Southern Ontario.

I took a peek at the instruction sheet that comes in the Store Championship kit today. It mandates that stores must do a top cut if they have more than 8 players. If they have more than 16 players they the cut must be at least a top 8. It does not specify round time. I really hate forcing players to do 60 minute games. I foresee a lot of ties and cheap ass wins.

What is the consensus these days for Store Championships on Round times and round structure? There are only so many hours in a day that a store can be open and players can actually stick it out playing.

60 minutes over 75 minutes? Swiss rounds capped at 4 then a top 8 cut? Top 4? Just Swiss with as many as warranted by number of players, without a cut?

There seems to be a mix of the ones being held locally, here in Southern Ontario.

I took a peek at the instruction sheet that comes in the Store Championship kit today. It mandates that stores must do a top cut if they have more than 8 players. If they have more than 16 players they the cut must be at least a top 8. It does not specify round time. I really hate forcing players to do 60 minute games. I foresee a lot of ties and cheap ass wins.

Having it mandated to do 6 rounds with 34 players was a bit awkward, and with the 6th round added it created a chance that there would be no undefeated players in the cut. 9 rounds is a lot of X-Wing to get in during a day, 8 rounds would have put us well under 12 hours even with 75 minute rounds and a half hour lunch break.

But what's the use of leaving so many points?

Put a AP in, at worst you won't use it

The point is to win the initiative bid, which is very very important when playing a phantom, let alone 2. Those are brilliant lists.

APs are useless these days: they get one-shotted by all the 4-5att and can't block because of the extreme maneuvrability of the new ships.

.

A single AP is a very weak addition. Four or a full on seven are still quite amazing when it comes to taking on even the hyper mobility of turreted fat arses.

I will say the poor bandit's seen better days, though. Lack of maneuverability relative to the tie is a killer, and the 2 agility just doesn't block shite while 3 with access to the evade action can actually be a life safer.

Please keep in mind that this was a store championship with two players form the top 32 of worlds (and someone that probably plays with them often) running these lists. There are alot of sub par builds at most store championships, and even against the better builds, these are likely much more experienced players. Again, the final from fcb showed how even with a good list, and even after some good games with it, someone can make a poor desicion or two and go from an almost assured win to a landslide defeat. Experience matters in this game maybe even more than most games.

So dont just assume the phantom is overpowered. Does it limit what is good in the meta? Ya basically. Is ACD a mistake FFG would want to take a mulligan on? Probably. But we're still talking a handful of viable ships/builds and not just 1. There's more viable options in this wave than in the last one at least.