It is annoying to have time run out when you only need 1 or 2 more hits to kill a decimator or any ship for that matter

It is annoying to have time run out when you only need 1 or 2 more hits to kill a decimator or any ship for that matter

so much this

especially know that, if you had rolled just a little bit better to push that 1 or 2 more damage through, you could have easily taken the win

It's why I personally detest turrets, I feel there's far more luck involved than skill when it comes to taking one down. Constantly keeping them in arc over several rounds is all well and good, but one flub against it or one amazing shot from it (which, despite the odds, destroys a ship and reduces your damage potential) can lead to these very frustrating situations.

I suppose people may find phantoms to be similar, but the key difference is that a phantom with traitorous green dice is in dire straights. C3PO, cowardly ponce though he may be, is loyal to the end.

This looks more like a sign that your local meta hasnt adapted yet rather than them being overpowered.

That is a very easy thing to say, but it doesn't hold up looking at the diversity in the list composition. It is much more likely that those two players are just good at the game and picked a competitive list.

I don't see a lot of Rebel control lists. Maybe that's the next thing for you guys? Stress out the Phantoms?

The Champion and Runner-Up would've performed similarly with any reasonable list. They are that good; one placed high at our Regionals last year and the other would've done the same but he was too busy TO'ing the event. They proved their point, maybe there is something amiss with that combo.

Also, looking at the other Store Championship in the area, it's obvious the Bay Area's meta is healthy and diverse as ever.

The meta near where I play is pretty balanced too. It's about 25% Phantoms, 25% Fat Hans, 20% Super Dash, 15% TIE Swarm, and then 15% random builds.

maybe there is something amiss with that combo.

There is, it absolutely destroys new and inexperienced players.

Why won't anyone think of the new guys!?

(Couldn't resist)

i wonder will doom shuttle + whisper + fel any good in the current meta?

Wow, didn't realize our store championship results would generate that much discussion.

Pretty much the winner has been top 4 at all the store championship and smaller tournaments this year. And like someone said, he was top 8 at regionals and won a local epic championship. There were a LOT of consistently great players in this top 8 that any one mistake in one of the matches would have changed the results. I think part of the reason with so many Decimators at the top is more because a lot of the top players here despise Fat Han lists and the Decimator is relatively new to play with.

The meta near where I play is pretty balanced too. It's about 25% Phantoms, 25% Fat Hans, 20% Super Dash, 15% TIE Swarm, and then 15% random builds.

That is not what I consider balanced. Maybe if you mean balanced between rock, paper, or scissors.

i wonder will doom shuttle + whisper + fel any good in the current meta?

I won a 16 person SC with that. Went against 3 deci builds. It's doable, but you have to pull it off correctly. If you lose Fel early, you're done for as any deci with Rebel Captive will wreck your phantom. Stress is your biggest threat.

Wow, didn't realize our store championship results would generate that much discussion.

Pretty much the winner has been top 4 at all the store championship and smaller tournaments this year. And like someone said, he was top 8 at regionals and won a local epic championship. There were a LOT of consistently great players in this top 8 that any one mistake in one of the matches would have changed the results. I think part of the reason with so many Decimators at the top is more because a lot of the top players here despise Fat Han lists and the Decimator is relatively new to play with.

Well, the stale Meta of Wave 5 is bound to generate discussion when we see it reflected in so many store championships and not just the highest levels of competition. Does few high placing odd-ball lists are such a joy to behold that I feel this thread is largely responsible for keeping me in the game into Wave 6 hits.

Also the Decimator is basically just an imperial Fat Han that can take a Phantom Wingman when you get down to brass tacts

Until Chiraneau stops becoming the apparently only possible permutation of that ship, the "newness" of the Decimator has absolutely nothing to do with why it is being played. When I start seeing some Mara Jade, some Oicuun, perhaps a Vader 'mator etc, then we can talk about the imperial fattie being something new

Also the Decimator is basically just an imperial Fat Han that can take a Phantom Wingman when you get down to brass tacts

Without derailing this thread too much, it is no such thing.

It doesn't have that sweet dial, the defensive token stacking, or Han's damage output.

You can build it to approximate the Falcon's level of defensive or attack capabilities, but it will never excel at everything - like Fat Han.

Also the Decimator is basically just an imperial Fat Han that can take a Phantom Wingman when you get down to brass tacts

Without derailing this thread too much, it is no such thing.

It doesn't have that sweet dial, the defensive token stacking, or Han's damage output.

You can build it to approximate the Falcon's level of defensive or attack capabilities, but it will never excel at everything - like Fat Han.

Well, while we're waiting for new input, why not?

The dial is incredibly similar, missing only the 1 hard and k-turns but gains a 3 hard (which is insane on a ship that doesn't give a **** about facing). What it lacks in defensive token stacking (rather, CP30 + evade) it approximates through Isanne and more total health. Chiraneau's ability I actually hold as being superior to Han's, but I am not a mathematician so that might not hold much water (just note it triggers on every attack made at range 1-2, so it has similar interactions that han has with gunner). Then there's the obvious: 360 turret with no restriction (ala outrider or turret upgrades) and a high PS, fat base that can boost.

While the VT-49 Chiraneau lacks access to some amazing rebel-only upgrades (Luke, 3PO, R2-D2 crew) its playstyle and its ability to infuriate via lack of partial scoring is nearly identical, if perhaps slightly less potent.

I would say Han and Chirneau are very comparable.

Chirneau's ability is better than Han's. With Predator he gets a reroll+focus+crit on top of getting a free evade from ysanne and freeing his action for boost. With a Rebel Captive he doesn't care what his PS is because if a phantom shoots at him it can't cloak. A Patrol Leader with RC is scary to a phantom...only YT that is scary is Han with VI.

Han needs to decide to either take an evade or boost. Can't do both.

I just find it funny when some people say they hate Han/YTs but fly Decimators...same **** thing...except Han can't take a phantom as a wingman.

Well, nowadays it seems Corran has taken the mantle of "rebel phantom"

Can't really blame players, though, he is a very potent little bugger

What it lacks in defensive token stacking (rather, CP30 + evade) it approximates through Isanne and more total health.

1 evade per round for the second half of the ship's health doesn't compare to 2 evades per round for the entire game. Getting 3 extra hit points doesn't make up for it, either.

That said, I think that EU+Predator means that the damage output is as good or better, so please don't think that I'm saying it's a bad ship. I'd just much rather face a Deci in the endgame than a Fat Han.

I think that trying to claim "a pancake is a pancake" is too reductionist for the caliber of play that we're talking about.

Yeah, Fat Han is just silly. As was mentioned previously, a Decimator can either match the damage output or the defensive capability of Fat Han -- not both. Also, a Decimator's defensive capability relies entirely on its not being stressed. Its dial is excellent for this, but Kenkirk (PS 6 versus Han's 9) and his native evade -- after losing shields, no less -- is nothing compared to a native evade (with shields), C-3PO activating regardless of stress and the Falcon Title. Look at it like this:

For 4 points on a Decimator, you get an evade that only works if you're not stressed. For 4 points on a Falcon, you can take an evade (if not stressed, anyway) and basically always get an evade at least once with 3-PO regardless of stress. They're not the same thing at all. Yes, it helps with only one attack, but that's sometimes all you need to prevent a bad crit or maintain shields for one more round of firing.

I'm not a fan of ships that allow you to go anywhere and maintain an attack in general, but to say Fat Han and Chiraneau are comparable is just ridiculous. They're both very killable, don't get me wrong, but no ship in the game is set up for perfection at both offense and defense as Fat Han is.

That said, I couldn't be more excited to see how Scum and Villainy changes up the lists that populate our Top 8s. I suspect that large ship duos will be very popular with the IG-88s and Scummy Kath / Boba. Plus new swarm variations with Scyks and Scum Z-95s. Y-Wings being able to Ion and blast with primary, HWKs dicing up the opponent's actions, and Starvipers... well, who knows what they'll do. This summer should see a great deal of variety.

Right, Ysanne carrying Decimators are probably on the whole, not as durable as Falcon + MF Title + C3P0. I don't want to do the math, but if you assume each taking 2, 3 dice attacks per round, it's like 1 more round of survival, and many less potential crits. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it does mean you are more likely to lose your Deci than you would a Falcon before time is called. Though, you DO get the Evade no matter your action choice, which is nice. Damage wise, Rear Admiral obviously is more consistent at range 1-2, and Rebel Captive has many many benefits that the Falcon could only wish for. However, as far as Decimators go,

Also, I think Oicunn and the Rear Admiral are on about equal power levels. Partially because Oicunn gets another 4 pts for one of the many necessary upgrades, partially because the ramming ability + Rebel Captive lets you solo R2D2+C3PO Falcons, a feat the Rear Admiral without Expose only wishes he could do. Damage potential is just that tidbit higher with the ram, and you can clear ships off the board during movement, letting you use your shot to focus on another ship. And heck, moving first and moving last both have their benefits. Oicunn is more likely to block ships, still a very potent tactic even in this meta, and the Rear Admiral will have more information for action choices, like boost.

1 evade per round for the second half of the ship's health doesn't compare to 2 evades per round for the entire game. Getting 3 extra hit points doesn't make up for it, either.

That said, I think that EU+Predator means that the damage output is as good or better, so please don't think that I'm saying it's a bad ship. I'd just much rather face a Deci in the endgame than a Fat Han.

I think that trying to claim "a pancake is a pancake" is too reductionist for the caliber of play that we're talking about.

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I would not claim that a pancake is a pancake. The lower PS Yt-1300 and Decimator pilots do not possess nearly the same capabilities as Han or Chiraneau and have to be utilized with completely different strategies both because of their unique abilities and their lower PS scores.

Fat Han and Fat Chiri, however, I am confident in saying are so very very similar. I do recognize and did indeed write that Chiraneau does not have access to the exact same level of potency as Han because he cannot get the rebel-only upgrades, but the nature of his build's abilities

(the specific combination of: high PS, ease of arc dodging via boost after everyone has moved, 360 degree turrets furthering said ease, action independent damage buffs via ability and upgrades, action independent guaranteed defenses via upgrade, stocked hull + shield, all combined to make a package that ca very easily hit and run to avoid giving up any points no matter how damaged he is...)

are so incredibly similar that it is incredibly difficult not to draw parallels.

1 evade per round for the second half of the ship's health doesn't compare to 2 evades per round for the entire game. Getting 3 extra hit points doesn't make up for it, either.

That said, I think that EU+Predator means that the damage output is as good or better, so please don't think that I'm saying it's a bad ship. I'd just much rather face a Deci in the endgame than a Fat Han.

I think that trying to claim "a pancake is a pancake" is too reductionist for the caliber of play that we're talking about.

.

I would not claim that a pancake is a pancake. The lower PS Yt-1300 and Decimator pilots do not possess nearly the same capabilities as Han or Chiraneau and have to be utilized with completely different strategies both because of their unique abilities and their lower PS scores.

Fat Han and Fat Chiri, however, I am confident in saying are so very very similar. I do recognize and did indeed write that Chiraneau does not have access to the exact same level of potency as Han because he cannot get the rebel-only upgrades, but the nature of his build's abilities

(the specific combination of: high PS, ease of arc dodging via boost after everyone has moved, 360 degree turrets furthering said ease, action independent damage buffs via ability and upgrades, action independent guaranteed defenses via upgrade, stocked hull + shield, all combined to make a package that ca very easily hit and run to avoid giving up any points no matter how damaged he is...)

are so incredibly similar that it is incredibly difficult not to draw parallels.

This is just so wrong. Chiraneau just does not compare to Fat Han. Your "specific combination of" lists things have entries that exclude each other. Yes, Chiraneau can boost after movement if has has EU and PTL, but that then precludes Predator for the actionless soft TL. Chiraneau *must* dodge arcs because he is not a true tank (only "tankiness" comes from a high HP pool, but as anyone playing with or against a Decimator knows, the lack of mitigation makes that deceptive in its true effectiveness.) Stress eliminates Chiraneau's defensive potential, so the Deci player has to account for that - I don't know what action independent guaranteed defense you think RAC has. Han at least has 3p0 for an actual guaranteed evade (regardless of stress,) and the unique rebel crews are just better for tanking (crew R2 for regen, although risky is still better than nothing) than the imperial crew.

Don't under estimate the defensive capability of Moff Jerry. In Phils and my match up for the SC title, Jerjerrod saved himself from a blinded pilot and a damaged sensor array. Those are HUGE crits to get on a fat turret. That's a large defensive buff that Han does not have.

I personally think they're oh-so-very similiar. But between the two, Chiraneau scares me when I get in R1. I don't like that he's throwing 4 dice, with a TL and a mini focus. And yeah, I get somewhere between 1-3 dice to mitigate the damage, but he gets a guaranteed damage mitigation via evade.

Han on the other hand, if I get into R1, he still has to rely on getting a naturally good roll. Sure, he has multiple times to try it, but he still doesn't have any way (short of Predator) to modify it. He does not scare me as much. Plus, if he wants to run away with boost, he doesn't get his evade token. Chiraneau gets both. Chiraneau essentially gets 2.5 actions (action, ysand, <eye> -> <kaboom>) a turn, where as Han gets 2.5 actions (action, C3PO, reroll) a turn. Both can lose 1 action to blocking, and han is left with 1.5 actions vs. .5 actions if stress gets stacked somehow (not quite sure why we're talking about edge cases since neither really should take PTL, requiring the opponent to double stress the turret).

I'm not saying they're the same. But I think it's ignorant for people to say there are no similarities between the two.

P.S. EI+Expose on RAC is just nasty. Han can't do that.

I´m an ignorant fool, but I feel the biggest difference between Han and Chiraneau is the 1-turn. I know the Decimator has the 3-turn instead but the 1-turn is simply incredible. You can both utilize the asteroid fields more boldly and you can also use the edges of the board to a greater degree because you can recover on the spot. If you leave the 1-turn out I think the ships are about even, both have great crew options and can stay alive with skillful boosting.

Fat Hans potential still has growth. Once an ept allows him to modify his evade die to an evade his defensive ability gets increased significantly. For instance the closest thing we have to this is lone wolf right now which works on every atk and defender roll. This also allows you to take evades regulary w the falcon title since with han ability and lone wolf pretty much is all u should need bonus points of u take luke. This allows you to block 2-3 hits on the first atk and every atk thereafter a decent chance to block at least one hit. C3p0 ability works before modifiers. So yes fat han does get stronger in wave 6.

Fat Hans potential still has growth. Once an ept allows him to modify his evade die to an evade his defensive ability gets increased significantly. For instance the closest thing we have to this is lone wolf right now which works on every atk and defender roll. This also allows you to take evades regulary w the falcon title since with han ability and lone wolf pretty much is all u should need bonus points of u take luke. This allows you to block 2-3 hits on the first atk and every atk thereafter a decent chance to block at least one hit. C3p0 ability works before modifiers. So yes fat han does get stronger in wave 6.

Which wave 6 card are you talking about? Lone Wolf was out with Wave 5, but I don't know that it's found much use on Han.

Anything that makes 1 agility die better will just make Kenkirk better too. Yes, his agility doesn't kick in right away, but you have 12 hull when it kicks in, which is almost as good as the 13 health that the YT has to begin with. But he's already taken 4 damage to get to that point.