Since we have been playing Descent, I have come to love ettins. Their throw ability is such a fun ability to shake things up and get heroes out of their defensive line. Their act I surge damage (+2 for minions, +3 for master) deals some sweet damage. But, as we are finishing up our first part of our first campaign, I am preparing for act II. I find myself stunned that for the act II ettins, their surge damage has been nerfed (+1 minions, +2 master).

Is this an error? Why would their damage ability drop?

Its actually not an error.

The Act II Ettins get superior defenses, higher health, and BRR instead of BR. To offset this large jump in power, they slightly nerfed their surge Damage. Their average damage is still higher in Act II.

Ynferneal Hulks are still way better though

I've found in the base set that the improvement of Act II monsters over Act I tends to be a little smaller than it is in the CK and later expansions.

I generally prefer ettins in act 2 to Ynfernael Hulks. I rarely choose large monsters unless I want to block an area, in which case tanki-ness and special abilities to help in that area come out in top. Throw is a great ability. Ynfernal Hulks are more mobile, but if I want mobile, I'll use smaller monsters.

We have only played 3 of the quests (plus First Blood) so far, but I am finding myself relying more and more on the big boys (shadow dragons, ettins) because the others just get mowed down--cave spiders, zombies, goblin archers, barghest. I put those groups out there and half are dead before I get to move.

Using small monsters requires more skill and planning than large monsters, but it's far more rewarding. Small monsters are more mobile and do way more damage than the big monsters do.

LOL then that means I am playing them way wrong because my cave spiders and goblin archers just get mowed down. What do you do, have them avoid being adjacent to a hero as much as you can?

Treat them as skirmishers and swarmers. Keep them back and out of harm's way until you have the opportunity to rush in and get attacks with all of them off. Goblin archers, for example, do crazy good damage if you do it right. You can even move into range, fire off a shot, then move back a little and make it harder for them to be mowed down.

If you just try to engage the heroes straight up they'll die very fast, but the trick is to make sure that your small monsters are the ones that start the fight and get the first attacks, not the other way around.

So do you frequently move your goblin's back, away from on-coming heroes? Maybe that is how scamper could be important.

The last quest we played, I think it was encounter #2 of Fat Goblin, I had 5 spiders in the first room and I kept wondering if animal monsters could open the door to escape the heroes (I decided no) and they got slaughtered. Not sure I did any damage with them.

I think you are showing me that I need to approach the OL play differently.

So do you frequently move your goblin's back, away from on-coming heroes? Maybe that is how scamper could be important.

The last quest we played, I think it was encounter #2 of Fat Goblin, I had 5 spiders in the first room and I kept wondering if animal monsters could open the door to escape the heroes (I decided no) and they got slaughtered. Not sure I did any damage with them.

I think you are showing me that I need to approach the OL play differently.

Any monster can open doors. Animal/humanoid, it makes no difference. The only thing that the trait of a monster affects is which quests if can be picked for as an open group.

Cave Spiders aren't generally a very good monster group because of their lack of durability and their melee requirement, and no real burst to speak of. However, with cave spiders, they can still work out alright if you play them just right. Target the low might members of the party to get poison on them, and keep the master spider in melee with as many as possible to force them to waste fatigue or target the master instead of the minions. The master is more durable, so it will take more hits than minions, thereby allowing more of your damage potential to carry over. Remember that monsters can interrupt their movement to attack, so you can move in, attack, then back out. This forces the heroes to waste fatigue to chase or forfeit an action.

Thanks for the heads-up, Zaltyre.

Man, Whitewing, you are schooling me on how to be an evil excellent OL. I never really considered breaking up a move to attack but that will be huge in the hit-and-run philosophy. I have been a bit frustrated lately at doing such minimal damage to my daughter's heroes that I have been calling up ettins and shadow dragons to just get some damage, but I will need to try to utilize my smaller monsters with more wisdom. Even then, I just read in the errata that shadow dragon fire can snake in any direction that I desire...sheesh, I was putting it in a straight line and hitting one extra. Soooo many rules and procedures to remember!

How do act II quests work out in comparison to act I--similar give and take but with more power?

Someone said that for encounter I, they rarely play OL cards, saving them for encounter II. Do you do the same?

It actually was probably me that said that, since I've said it multiple times here. =p

I'm thinking of writing a "How to Overlord" guide soon.

Dooooo Eeeeet!!!

krejaton, one thing you have to remember, though, is that the same rule about interupting movement applies to the heros as well.

One trick I've found works is trying to distract the heros, split their attention, using the monsters that can reinforce. Monsters that don't reinforce should be used sparingly (or not) depending on their role. (never spare ettins!)

Hey Alarmed, thanks for chiming in. Could you explain a bit more what you mean? I have only played 3 quests so far (First Blood, Masquerade Ball and Fat Goblin) but they are all very linear and my girls don't seem to keen on splitting up at all except to scurry after search tokens.

Keep your groups open, to avoid the effects of blast; have your monsters use hit and fade tactics, but have them move in different directions so that the heros need to choose to go after one, or the other, but can't attack them all. The deciding factor in Descent is action economy; getting them to use actions to chase you, while at the same time using your Overlord cards to punish the actions they do take is what makes for a winning strategy.

On the hero's side, focus, team work and cooperation along with knowledge of their abilities is what makes an OL tear hsi hair out.

I think what you are telling me is that I was being outplayed by two teen girls.

My follow-up question is this: the objective of many of the quests seems to be to reach x as fast as you can, thus I was always using large monsters to gum up the hallways. If I spread out my goblins/spiders/etc aren't I allowing them easier access to their objective? To put it another way, I guess I saw my job as impeding them as long as I can, you are saying that isn't really the case?

I think what you are telling me is that I was being outplayed by two teen girls.

My follow-up question is this: the objective of many of the quests seems to be to reach x as fast as you can, thus I was always using large monsters to gum up the hallways. If I spread out my goblins/spiders/etc aren't I allowing them easier access to their objective? To put it another way, I guess I saw my job as impeding them as long as I can, you are saying that isn't really the case?

Often, your job is impeding them as much as possible. However, are large monsters always the best way to do this? I don't think so. You can plug a hallway with a single shadow dragon, or with 4 barghests, or 5 cave spiders. Or, you can use the monsters as bait to lure the heroes away from their objective. And if they choose to ignore the monsters, just attack them to slow them down. The best way to impede the heroes isn't always to drop a single big monster in their way.

Krejaton ...

Zaltyre makes a very strong point, one which I use as a teaching example to those learning to play the game (especially those learning to be a strong OL).

One of the ways to mess with heroes is to constantly present them choices ... forcing them to make tough decisions.

For example, often, I will force my heroes to choose between deciding to go for the gold (the search tokens) or achieve the encounter's objectives. This is especially true in the first part (encounter 1) of a multi-part encounter, as no one can actually "win" anything in this encounter.

Ultimately, limiting heroes access to gold is almost always a successful approach, as it is that gold which allows them to purchases better trinkets, weapons, armor, etc., all of which is critical for them as they progress to ACT II, and the finale.

In addition, I choose my open monster groups according to what my strategies may be for the given encounter. And then I stick to that strategy for the given encounter. If the encounter is a race, I may choose many small monsters to block corridors, especially if the heroes don't have any area of effect weapons. Don't be discouraged if they lay waste to a bunch of your monsters, as long as they serve the purpose of slowing them down (or whatever else was your strategy).

Know and understand your heroes abilities, heroic feats, attribute strengths, etc. Then use your OL abilities/cards, etc. to mitigate their strengths.

Thanks A2C (you too Z), you have really given me a lot of food for thought on how to develop a better strategy for being an OL. Perhaps I need to admit I should develop an actual strategy instead of just grabbing the baddest monster group to fill corridors and play cards whenever the occasion seems right ("Hmmm look a Tripwire or Poison Dark card, might as well toss it out there!").

No longer will I pull punches (i.e. not play to +3 critical shot or those wonderful Dark Might cards) because I see those girl doe-eyes telling me that their hero is close to dropping. And I am going to try different monsters and alternating tactics to see what works and what doesn't. Ruthless not toothless!

It also shows me that I need more monsters and more OL cards. Some of the cards I have been reading in here (mimic) and monsters (ravagers!) are calling to be part of my arsenal. I did get one H&M pack--Cult of the Forgotten--any suggestions on another? I also got LotW because...rumors! This weekend can't come soon enough.

No longer will I pull punches (i.e. not play to +3 critical shot or those wonderful Dark Might cards) because I see those girl doe-eyes telling me that their hero is close to dropping. And I am going to try different monsters and alternating tactics to see what works and what doesn't. Ruthless not toothless!

That's the attitude !!! Flatten them **** heroes

All kidding aside, I started playing games with my parents when I was about 4 years old. My old man would never LET me win; if I won, it was because I played better. Now, I am not saying that he was brutal about it, but he taught me some important life lessons as I got older. And as I got older, both my mom and him were more and more aggressive about playing their hardest, within the rules, to win.

It made me appreciate it all the more when I actually beat them. And as I said, much of what occurred in those games, and the strategies and thinking processes that I developed, served me very well later in life.

Not to mention the fact that I think it is great that you are getting your daughters involved. I did the same with mine (she is all grown up now). She was about the only girl on the block that developed critical thinking, mathematical skills, etc. because of her willingness to play these games. Of course, it was easy for me because I had no sons.

Krejaton, getting to the objective can win the heros the quest, but cost them the game.

In our current campaign, my group (I'm a hero) rushed the objective in the first 2 quests, losing the first and winning the next in a blitzkrieg of heoric swiftness!!

The game punished us for it, though, because we had no money. We couldn't purchase armour, couldn't upgrade our weapons and we lost the next 2 quests, the interlude and the first quest of Act II. The OL took full advantage of our weakness and impeded our searches as much as he could (which was a lot, until I could remedy that with skill purchase).

Be ruthless, but don't be heartless! Go for the win, but use each quest as a teaching moment, finding ways everyone could have played better.

Thanks for the guidance Alarmed and A2C. We have only played 3 quests since we got the game but, when my girls are squawking for a weekend so that they can play more Descent, I call it a success. Now that I have reeled them in, it is time to crush them like the cockroaches they are!

As a game, this one is really making me think. It isn't the dungeon crawler that I thought it was, it isn't a smash n grab. The heroes have to make a lot of choices, beginning with which characters to play and, as OL, I need to think about how best to respond. Since I initially saw Descent as a dungeon crawl, they have responded by overpowering my monsters. Now it is time for me to adjust and make them pay. MUWAHAHAHAHA!

But I hear what you are saying A2C, about making them earn the victory. However, my youngest is viciously competitive and, when she didn't win, she would pout for hours. It was so bad we stopped playing games for about a year and, when we started again, it was only co-op games (Forbidden Island, Pandemic, Castle Panic, etc.). She loved the idea of competitive games but just could not let go until the last couple years. Also, while I would never let them win, I will make the path easier by pulling some punches for no other reason than to draw them in by letting them feel the surge of excitement and the joy of victory. Now that they are hooked and feeling some sence of power and accomplishment, it is time for me to ramp up the pressure.

I am now seeing that more important to me (as OL) than them winning encounter 1 is really stopping them from getting all of the search cards. Long term, those seem like one of the main keys to later success. I was seeing each quest almost as a stand-alone slugfest but I need to take a long term outlook to the campaign.

So we are almost to our first interlude. Besides using new monster cards for Act II, does the game change in any other ways? Anything I need to be concerned about or aware of as we head to Act II and the Finale?

Gah, you all have helped me so much. My daughters tears will be your thanks.

The interlude brings a big change for the heros, esepcially if they have a lot of money, flush from winning many act 1 quests. They get to choose all they can afford from the entire ACt 1 shop deck.

This can make it difficult for the OL if certain classes manage to get their hands on items crafted for them, such as the treasure hunter getting the crossbow, a mage getting the rune plate or a rune with blast, a wild lander getting his hand on a bow like the bow of bone. Since shop draws are random, these items may not heve appeared, or they may have appeared at times where the heros had no money (Rune plate draw on the intro!) but after the interlude they all become available.

Also, the heros will start having 2 and 3 XP skills, that may lead to some surprise if you haven't kept abreast of their skill purchases.

Being the greedy little heroes that they are, they have spent most of their gold. They have 75 heading into our third quest.

Like me as a (mostly) clueless OL, they are totally unsure about what is best for their heroes and are buying what they consider the beefiest stated items for the gold they have. My youngest got a bow (elm?), my oldest has some chest plate, she also has a rune but had never blasted me.

From Masquerade Ball, I got the Bones of Woe...and yet I forget to roll for an extra card almost every time (like an idiot). I only have the basic game plus CotF H&M, so my deck is rather limited and I am clueless about many of the cards mentioned in here. But oldest turns 18 in 2 weeks and I already have LotW for her (read: "us") and with my birthday in Feb--I am thinking Trollfens.

But first, I must get a better handle on my card, my monsters and how each affects their heroes.

[Aside to WhiteWing: hurry up on that OL primer! ]