If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

Jake and keyan require you to have initiative because if Fel moves last you will not get those rockets off easily and keyan will be dodged alot. Also this is me saying this as a Jake and keyan fan.

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm not even a primary reb player and I found it insulting.

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

Jake and keyan require you to have initiative because if Fel moves last you will not get those rockets off easily and keyan will be dodged alot. Also this is me saying this as a Jake and keyan fan.

Well yeah, if the opponent actually has the ability to arc-dodge he might conceivably arc-dodge. That's part of the fun, imo.

After having to keep turreted ships in arc for so long, I don't find non-phantom arc-dodgers to be as impossible to shoot as the forums seem to make them out. Don't get me wrong, a well-flown interceptor is a beautiful thing, but both players have to keep his manuever + roll + boost in mind when orientating his firing arc which can really limit his approach. If the player moves unconventionally to arc-dodge he may have to forfeit his shot, a drawback turrets never have to face (giving them a far freer range of movement).

Basically, I'm saying that I EU large ships about as manageable as interceptor, the only point of contention being the smaller base (off-set somewhat by the consequentially smaller boost/roll displacement) and the awesome barrel-roll (though not in Dash's case).

Phantoms are trickier because of the pre-manuever de-cloak, but without the initiative they are giving up whisper's re-cloak and focus assignment. This makes it possible (not easy, possible) to orientate your phantom slayer relative to the rest of your squad to cover any bad angles the phantom can be trying to take advantage of. Easier said than done and it's all going to depend on the state of your board and how both players fly, but I do find phantoms a much more interesting positioning challenge than just throwing dice back and forth with Han/Chiraneau.

So yeah, I'd admit they could well be challenging ships to fly against, but I don't understand the whole idea that turrets are the only way to deal with them (they are the hardest counter, though, to the point that they're probably the reason we only see Fell and Whisper anymore)

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm gonna get some friends to run that build against Fel, Jax, and Royal guard all with push, stealth, and auto thrusters. That comes in at 99 and will be interesting to see the average results of that match up.

It's also not right to say that they invalidate flying. If on a large ship it takes a lot of skill to maneuver correctly and avoid bumps and asteroids. You still need to outguess your opponent even more if you fly large ships. And if i understand well it is large ships they are complaining about after all.

Add the massive cost of a turret to this fact and you must see that there is no disproportion in cost/effect of turrets. As stated they cost 1/2 to 2/3 of your list so theybshould better be good.

They invalidate the flying of the opponent. It doesn't matter how cleverly I plan or outguess you with a Squint, if I drop into range without being able to kill you in that turn, I'm space dust. Front, side, rear, it doesn't matter where I am. And given the Interceptor and other similar ships are supposed to reward clever movement, that's dispiriting.

And no-one is saying they shouldn't be "good". Just that they shouldn't entirely prevent the use of a whole archetype of ship - the arc dodging glass cannons.

However I do like the suggestion of going after escorts - after all, if you run a pure glass cannon list like tri-squints or phantoms then you have to accept that you're very scissory in your makeup, and at some point you're going to hit a rock. Build a list appropriately.

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm gonna get some friends to run that build against Fel, Jax, and Royal guard all with push, stealth, and auto thrusters. That comes in at 99 and will be interesting to see the average results of that match up.

I am really hoping auto-thrusters gives the squints another chance to shine through the mire of the turret dice-off. The guaranteed evade roll (triple focus rolls pending ) will be quite powerful

Have to say that I am not a huge fan of auto-thrusters as a fix in general, though. The 2 points is a not insignificant investment for an incredibly specific counter (unless you find yourself at range 3 a lot), which makes it really unattractive on A-wings who are pretty in-efficient versus turrets thanks to two dice (and had refit to remove those 2 points that apparently made them less than viable). I love my prot rocket Jakes, but I can't imagine shifting a FCS off of a B-wing to give him thrusters.

Oh well, I hope the Star Viper will come out guns-blazing because it's an interesting ship and because otherwise they might as well have made autos Interceptor only.

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm gonna get some friends to run that build against Fel, Jax, and Royal guard all with push, stealth, and auto thrusters. That comes in at 99 and will be interesting to see the average results of that match up.

I am really hoping auto-thrusters gives the squints another chance to shine through the mire of the turret dice-off. The guaranteed evade roll (triple focus rolls pending ) will be quite powerful

Have to say that I am not a huge fan of auto-thrusters as a fix in general, though. The 2 points is a not insignificant investment for an incredibly specific counter (unless you find yourself at range 3 a lot), which makes it really unattractive on A-wings who are pretty in-efficient versus turrets thanks to two dice (and had refit to remove those 2 points that apparently made them less than viable). I love my prot rocket Jakes, but I can't imagine shifting a FCS off of a B-wing to give him thrusters.

Have you played it? I've seen it save enough hits at R3 to more than make up it's points. The nice thing about A-Wings is that they don't need them if you don't want them thanks to the extra shield. However, I think they will be solid on them if you can find the points and increase their survivability, making them even more useful than on interceptors (since they're going to get even more use out of them because they will make those two points to further)

It's also not right to say that they invalidate flying. If on a large ship it takes a lot of skill to maneuver correctly and avoid bumps and asteroids. You still need to outguess your opponent even more if you fly large ships. And if i understand well it is large ships they are complaining about after all.

Add the massive cost of a turret to this fact and you must see that there is no disproportion in cost/effect of turrets. As stated they cost 1/2 to 2/3 of your list so theybshould better be good.

They invalidate the flying of the opponent. It doesn't matter how cleverly I plan or outguess you with a Squint, if I drop into range without being able to kill you in that turn, I'm space dust. Front, side, rear, it doesn't matter where I am. And given the Interceptor and other similar ships are supposed to reward clever movement, that's dispiriting.

And no-one is saying they shouldn't be "good". Just that they shouldn't entirely prevent the use of a whole archetype of ship - the arc dodging glass cannons.

However I do like the suggestion of going after escorts - after all, if you run a pure glass cannon list like tri-squints or phantoms then you have to accept that you're very scissory in your makeup, and at some point you're going to hit a rock. Build a list appropriately.

But how would that make turrets too powerful? I have no idea.

Also it's not entirely true that you can't do anything with Interceptors against turrets. I have beaten Falcons with 4 Interceptor lists by constantly keeping them at Range 2-3. It went down surprisingly fast and had only shot down one interceptor and damaged another. That was enough to win the game. The problem is if you feed the Interceptors piecemeal. Then Turrets could oneshot one per turn without taking return damage. Inversely that's just what a turret player needs to do to win this. And it's not easy by any means and it encourages good flying. You need to either ram one intercrptor, and/or make higher skilked ones bump with you or outrun or outmaneuver 2-3 of them every turb. That requires very good flying as a turret ship. It's just a myth born mostly by envy or just plain misunderstanding of the game that says that Interceptors and the like need to be better flown than other ships, including turreted ones

The best designed turrets in my opinion are the Range 1-2 Blaster Turret and Ion cannon turret since they still reward clever maneuvering on offense and defense. Basically you can still dodge them with good flying.

I started a thread a while back with a similar sentiment; not claiming anything was wrong with the game, just wondering what the game state might be if ALL turrets were restricted to range 1-2. All I got was a few shouts of "the game's not broken, stop trying to fix it!" At least you got 5 pages of discussion. I'll never understand this forum.

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm gonna get some friends to run that build against Fel, Jax, and Royal guard all with push, stealth, and auto thrusters. That comes in at 99 and will be interesting to see the average results of that match up.

I am really hoping auto-thrusters gives the squints another chance to shine through the mire of the turret dice-off. The guaranteed evade roll (triple focus rolls pending ) will be quite powerful

Have to say that I am not a huge fan of auto-thrusters as a fix in general, though. The 2 points is a not insignificant investment for an incredibly specific counter (unless you find yourself at range 3 a lot), which makes it really unattractive on A-wings who are pretty in-efficient versus turrets thanks to two dice (and had refit to remove those 2 points that apparently made them less than viable). I love my prot rocket Jakes, but I can't imagine shifting a FCS off of a B-wing to give him thrusters.

Oh well, I hope the Star Viper will come out guns-blazing because it's an interesting ship and because otherwise they might as well have made autos Interceptor only.

Well 3 attack dice attacks with focus/TL have 1/10 success of only scoring one hit vs Autothruster/evade/focus Interceptors. That basically means that you can outlast falcons and decimators unless they get 4 AD!

Not my calculations by the way. I think 2 points is an absolute steal for Autothrusters.

I also disagree on A-Wings. Give them Outmaneuver on top and in numbers they just eat turrets!

If you were to take turrets out of the game what do the rebels have that could stand up to whisper and fel?

Jakes (bad-ass motherfucker) Farrel w/ *V.I *PTL *Rockets

Advanced Sensors V.I Keyan

R3-A2 on an EU PS 10 X-wing (Wes especially, since he has extra game against 2-ship builds by ******* with the decimator's target lock)

In Soontir's case, he's dead to a successful block.

Or are we assuming all rebel players are incapable of checking maneuverable ships without resorting to a 360 degree turret? I know it's tempting to swat the fly with a nuclear bomb, but it's not the only way to kill the super-fast Z-95/Tie-Fighter

I'm gonna get some friends to run that build against Fel, Jax, and Royal guard all with push, stealth, and auto thrusters. That comes in at 99 and will be interesting to see the average results of that match up.

I am really hoping auto-thrusters gives the squints another chance to shine through the mire of the turret dice-off. The guaranteed evade roll (triple focus rolls pending ) will be quite powerful

Have to say that I am not a huge fan of auto-thrusters as a fix in general, though. The 2 points is a not insignificant investment for an incredibly specific counter (unless you find yourself at range 3 a lot), which makes it really unattractive on A-wings who are pretty in-efficient versus turrets thanks to two dice (and had refit to remove those 2 points that apparently made them less than viable). I love my prot rocket Jakes, but I can't imagine shifting a FCS off of a B-wing to give him thrusters.

Oh well, I hope the Star Viper will come out guns-blazing because it's an interesting ship and because otherwise they might as well have made autos Interceptor only.

Autothrusters are a glasscannon fix in general not a turret fix. It greatly impacts the hlc matchup, and joust as well as improves the survivability of low ps boost ships in general for a reasonable increase in cost.