I'm going to say this right up front. I'm not starting this as a doom and gloom thread! Though it may well turn into one.

So we all know that many ships in the Star Wars universe have turreted weapons. We also know that X-wing Miniatures is a dog fighting game that should reward clever maneuvering and lining up firing arcs. Turrets should have a place in the game, but if they dominate the game it kind of undermines the original premise.

How do you think that this can be accomplished moving forward? Certainly Auto-thrusters will help, but what other things do you see in the way of upgrades for non-turreted ships? When they add more turrets in the future, how would you like to see them designed differently?

I don't think turrets are breaking the game right now, but I do think they have gotten pretty strong in the meta since Wave 4 dropped.

The best designed turrets in my opinion are the Range 1-2 Blaster Turret and Ion cannon turret since they still reward clever maneuvering on offense and defense. Basically you can still dodge them with good flying. The 2400 turret is also well designed in my opinion. It has 2 attack dice which means its not very threatening in its own right and the Outrider title/HLC turret still has a bubble where it can be avoided (though the Mangler is going to change that). I would be against introducing any more 'perfect' (range 1-3, 3+ attack dice) turrets like the Falcon or the Decimator.

To move (no pun intended) turreted ship play, and the game in-general, back to a focus on maneuvering, I think there should be a FAQ update or something to make the range 1 damage bonus only apply to ships in firing arc. This would 1) incentivize turreted ships to keep the primary target in arc and 2) make it a bit more difficult for these ships to counter typically high-agility but low-health arc dodgers, like the Interceptor.

Accept that turret primaries are a part of the game and move on. They have shown some creative talent in making the new turret primary ships different. It is NOT the turret primary that is the problem.

The thing is a Mangler Outrider is still worse than a named Falcon, because the Falcon can take a gunner, the problems aren't with the 360 shooting as much as the 360 shooting, I force you to burn your defensive tokens and I get a free bonus shot while you are "naked" and now your 30+ point A-wing/Tie Interceptor just had to face 3 attack dice with no token help

If we were going to redesign things from the beging, I'd prefer to either have had autothruster's turret mitigation built into boost from the first release, _or_ the rule for turret primaries having always been a 1-die-reduction of firepower. I don't think either of those ideas would be a good retrofit.

I actually do think turreted secondary weapons are properly priced, though they're often underpowered given the opportunity costs they represent. The blaster turret, for instance, seems kinda bad given the need to spend a focus token.

Hell, make turrets work like they do in real life: Rotate the firing arc as an action, instead of simply ignoring it.

Of course, thats more logistically difficult to produce, but it works!

If we were going to redesign things from the beging, I'd prefer to either have had autothruster's turret mitigation built into boost from the first release, _or_ the rule for turret primaries having always been a 1-die-reduction of firepower. I don't think either of those ideas would be a good retrofit.

I actually do think turreted secondary weapons are properly priced, though they're often underpowered given the opportunity costs they represent. The blaster turret, for instance, seems kinda bad given the need to spend a focus token.

I kind of think it would be a healthier game if ALL turrets had had the requirements of the blaster turret from the get-go. Or, rather, had required a focus token to shoot out-of-arc (let 'em take forward shots for free).

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mangler outrider can still take a Gunner no?

Turret primary weapons are fine and I know that they will be a part of the game going forward, I just hope we don't get any more 3 attack dice primaries without any drawbacks (beyond the cost of the ships carrying them)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mangler outrider can still take a Gunner no?

Turret primary weapons are fine and I know that they will be a part of the game going forward, I just hope we don't get any more 3 attack dice primaries without any drawbacks (beyond the cost of the ships carrying them)

It can take gunner, but Gunner wouldn't do anything.

Gunner's second attack is made with your primary weapon, which can no longer fire thanks to the Outrider title.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mangler outrider can still take a Gunner no?

Turret primary weapons are fine and I know that they will be a part of the game going forward, I just hope we don't get any more 3 attack dice primaries without any drawbacks (beyond the cost of the ships carrying them)

You can, but why you would pay 5 pts for an upgrade you can't use is beyond me...

To find the balance is the trick. They have already given us one answer to the turreted ships with Autothrusters. Very little play tests g has been down from the public on this upgrade. From looking at the math I think it definetly helps bring the turret down some and the small boosting ships will see a healthy rise in the meta.

Hell, make turrets work like they do in real life: Rotate the firing arc as an action, instead of simply ignoring it.

Of course, thats more logistically difficult to produce, but it works!

Well, in New Hope, the Falcon's turrets were crewed by people who were not also piloting the ship. I'm not sure Chewie had to rotate the Falcon to let Han and Luke line up shots.

Come to think on it, I think the Y-Wing also had a crewed turret...

Doh! Totally forgot about the outrider title and gunner!

Yet another reason why I like the design choices behind the 2400 turret

Once auto thrusters comes out we will soon start seeing threads about how vader/gunner decimators have ruined the meta. Auto thrusters get the best bang for there buck on Int's especially Fel and Jax. Once people start seeing those guys tear up the rebel turrets people are going to try and counter them hard. They are going to bring in stress/ion control lists and gunner vader decimators.

You interceptor players will definitely have some fun with your own damage mitigation builds against falcons and outriders but you will be absolutely brick walled against decimators. The top tier competitive imperal lists are going to be deci with gunner/vader and most likely rebel captive + auto thruster fel or sometimes Jax. You will also see the same Deci but with a mini tie swarm.

Require a turret firing outside the Primary Arc to use a Target Lock in the fashion Missiles/Torps do.

Require a turret firing outside the Primary Arc to use a Target Lock in the fashion Missiles/Torps do.

Have you play tested that idea?

I'll try to get someone to do some testing on Autothrusters with me this Sunday. Ill run Outrider/HLC, a cpl Decimator builds, Fat falcon or two, even some Y's and hwks for parity sake. can i get some specific build suggestions? Hell i'll make a new thread.

How is Autothrusters going to stop a 1-shot HLC kill on an interceptor?

The best "fix" for turrets is to force the player to declare 1 of 4 sides the firing arc applies as an action. That is, the gunner has to move the turret.

How is Autothrusters going to stop a 1-shot HLC kill on an interceptor?

The best "fix" for turrets is to force the player to declare 1 of 4 sides the firing arc applies as an action. That is, the gunner has to move the turret.

Interceptors now auto cancel 2 hits from a turret ed ship and usually will still have the focus for the symbols. Fel can't be 1 shotted by an hlc dash if he's out if arc with an evade.

I created this thread to talk about the FUTURE of turrets but, just for fun, if I were to do a thought experiment re-design of how turrets worked I would have given the YT-1300 the ORS stat line across the board and taken away the turret primary weapon and given it a turret upgrade. Then have a Millenium falcon title that granted extra shields and hull to represent han's upgrades. Then have the Gunner card read: "You may make primary weapon attacks outside of your firing arc, this card can only be equipped by ships with the (turret upgrade symbol)"

Basically have gunner represent a manned turret (hence it is a crew card) and the blaster turret would represent an un manned turret (hence it requires the pilots focus to aim and has restricted range)

From there you can pretty much extrapolate it to the other turreted ships.

Basically the only way turrets could acceptably exist in a game that's apparently focused on maneuvering would be involve the "facing" of the turret in some manner (though I don't think it warrants the use of an action, a post maneuver declaration would suffice and limiting them move to an adjacent firing arc, anything to involve the player's thoughts and decisions). I would want this applied to every large ship turret, since the large bases are easier to track with a token and the small ships have various costs associated with their turrets (ion can't deal more than one damage, blaster requires focus, all have limited ranges...)

That fact that primary weapon turrets just snap into place whenever they feel like just seems dirty and far too forgiving. Worse still, by completely ignoring enemy maneuvers when it comes to being able to shoot them, turrets kind of turn the game into a dice off. Ships flown immaculately can pull off amazing comebacks, but against a turret you're just praying you roll well (and eventually you won't, because green dice).

Balance-wise I cant complain, it's the gameplay that grinds on my nerves. I do not enjoy using turrets or facing turrets and the fact that I have to tailor squads that can out-roll/out-last them and hope the dice fest goes my way, because no amount of flying will ever stop them from getting a shot. Not that dice fests can't be fun, but if I wanted to play that I'd pick up 40k again.

As for the future of primary weapon turrets, I just hope Wave 5 has signaled the end of them. The ones in the game provide enough of a headache as is.

You said no amount of flying can keep them from getting shot. What about blocking them onto a rock?

Also if you had to announce which arc you were using Han would still be king with his natural ps9 and VI boosted 11.

Basically the only way turrets could acceptably exist in a game that's apparently focused on maneuvering would be involve the "facing" of the turret in some manner (though I don't think it warrants the use of an action, a post maneuver declaration would suffice and limiting them move to an adjacent firing arc, anything to involve the player's thoughts and decisions). I would want this applied to every large ship turret, since the large bases are easier to track with a token and the small ships have various costs associated with their turrets (ion can't deal more than one damage, blaster requires focus, all have limited ranges...)

That fact that primary weapon turrets just snap into place whenever they feel like just seems dirty and far too forgiving. Worse still, by completely ignoring enemy maneuvers when it comes to being able to shoot them, turrets kind of turn the game into a dice off. Ships flown immaculately can pull off amazing comebacks, but against a turret you're just praying you roll well (and eventually you won't, because green dice).

Balance-wise I cant complain, it's the gameplay that grinds on my nerves. I do not enjoy using turrets or facing turrets and the fact that I have to tailor squads that can out-roll/out-last them and hope the dice fest goes my way, because no amount of flying will ever stop them from getting a shot. Not that dice fests can't be fun, but if I wanted to play that I'd pick up 40k again.

As for the future of primary weapon turrets, I just hope Wave 5 has signaled the end of them. The ones in the game provide enough of a headache as is.

This sounds appropriate fair and dynamic. Can it rotate 180 or just 90? Also when you fly a turret in battlefront 2. That IS what it feels like.

Funny enough though the game currently balanced for current turret rules. If this rule were placed I would have to ask also for a reduction in price for turret ships. Which still makes me happy. More variety and more ships on the board.

How does that balance against ps9 or ps11 han? He will still most likely be moving last anways.

So, if the turret problem emerged after wave 4 hit (which happened well after the Falcon arrived), can it be said that the Falcon is actually the problem? Or is it a result of the TIE Phantom Menace?