It's nice to see something new for Descent.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=5288

Maybe it's only a new H&M Collection but with one of my favoured heroes - Master Thorn and with Trolls which also are one of my beloved monsters from 1e.

Cool to see those!

Maybe it's not a small box expansion but still a nice addition to Descent 2e. Lately I played more SW: Imperail Assault, which I think is more balanced and a little better then D2e, but I still like this game and buy it all tho have a complete collection. There's never too much nice fantasy miniatures like those fgrom Descent 1e & 2e.

Cheers

Unless they're changing archetypes, this is the second H&M pack to be announced with an extra warrior. Guardians of Deephall lacks a mage (instead we've got Hawthorne and Mordrog,) and Visions of Dawn seems to lack a scout (but we get Validir and Nara.) The first edition hasn't run out of mages or scouts to be transferred to 2E, so I wonder what the intention is there.

In any case, Ispher has been significantly altered- more health, more damage recovery, and his heroic feat now (mostly) heals another hero and removes conditions, instead of completely healing himself.

Unless they're changing archetypes, this is the second H&M pack to be announced with an extra warrior. Guardians of Deephall lacks a mage, and Visions of Dawn seems to lack a scout. The first edition hasn't run out of mages or scouts to be transferred to 2E, so I wonder what the intention is there.

In any case, Ispher has been significantly altered- more health, more damage recovery, and his heroic feat now (mostly) heals another hero and removes conditions, instead of completely healing himself.

The new Ispher is a significant improvement over the previous one from the conversion kit. I'd actually be rather annoyed to play against him. The passive is fairly strong, as long as you aren't trying to tank with him. It makes him pretty much the worst target to harass. His heroic feat is very powerful now. His ability checks are well rounded as well, which makes targeting him with overlord cards frustrating. All in all, a powerful healer.

The immunity to poison makes his lower might even less relevant. That's annoying.

Ispher looks like a very fun hero to play around with. Sadly the ogre has only 1 grey dice, which limits its use tremendously.

Looks like the Ogre was significantly nerfed. In the conversion kit, he had Undying, which is not replaced with Fleshmonger. While Fleshmonger is still cool, it cannot compare to Undying (basically, it's +8 health at most now, versus a +9 in a brand new minion monster).

Undying was cool because you could utilize it in so many ways. You could sacrifice a near dead master with Tristayne's Soul Siphon and get a minion monster as a result!

Now I have to figure out a way to hit multiple enemies at once to provide an immediate huge buff to the Ogre, since he can't attack twice and probably will not survive 4 rounds of hero attacks. It'd be better if instead of adding health, Fleshmonger added a yellow die for each hero token.

Ogre looks weak to me. In general, health is less valuable than extra defense. The Ettin is significantly more durable than the Ogre is, and also has throw and reach. The Ogre does marginally more damage (surge is SLIGHTLY better) and has knockback, but I'd much rather use Ettins than the Ogre as is. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any instance I would ever voluntarily use ogres, as small monsters are better than large monsters except at tanking. If you're going to use a large monster, you choose the tankiest one possible so you get the most actions possible out of it. Shadow Dragons, for example, are good because they have high damage potential for a large monster but more importantly a huge amount of durability with a large defense pool and shadow. Unless your heroes are running a high amount of pierce, extra defense is always better than extra health.

Sadly the ogre has only 1 grey dice

At least in the conversion it was the same way. It still ranks among the higher tie monsters acording to polls around. Its forte is in encounters with pits and lava.

Its red die for the minion was changed to a yellow, but this now triggers the surge +3 damage more ofted. More reliable damage, though I'm not doing the math.

The new Fleshmonger ability, yeah, it appears to be of lower utility/durability. I guess its more fun/gamey while solving the awkwardness of ordering for a mini that might not available in a 4p game.

The Ogre and Manticore (how cool does ranged Ravage sound?) were my two most awaited monsters .

The heroes always take me by surprise, even with my analyses of popularity/variety-apportation. Lyssa, my dear, I'll see you one day.

As an overlord, Ispher's bump startled me! Hard to take down or annoy indeed. As a cleric, I wish it had a battle hammer instead of a blade.

Sadly the ogre has only 1 grey dice

At least in the conversion it was the same way. It still ranks among the higher tie monsters acording to polls around. Its forte is in encounters with pits and lava.

Its red die for the minion was changed to a yellow, but this now triggers the surge +3 damage more ofted. More reliable damage, though I'm not doing the math.

The new Fleshmonger ability, yeah, it appears to be of lower utility/durability. I guess its more fun/gamey while solving the awkwardness of ordering for a mini that might not available in a 4p game.

The Ogre and Manticore (how cool does ranged Ravage sound?) were my two most awaited monsters .

The heroes always take me by surprise, even with my analyses of popularity/variety-apportation. Lyssa, my dear, I'll see you one day.

As an overlord, Ispher's bump startled me! Hard to take down or annoy indeed.

I'll do the math for you =p.

Blue Die: Miss, 1 damage 1 surge, 1 damage, 2 damage, 2 damage, 2 damage 1 surge.

Red Die: 1 damage, 2 damage, 2 damage, 2 damage, 3 damage, 3 damage 1 surge

Yellow Die: 1 damage, 1 damage, 1 surge, 1 damage 1 surge, 2 damage, 2 damage 1 surge.

Blue Die + red die possible results (36 combinations):

Miss (6 times) = 0 damage

2 Damage 1 surge = 5 damage

3 Damage 1 surge (4 times) = 6 damage

4 Damage 1 surge (5 times) = 7 damage

4 Damage 2 surges = 7 damage

2 Damage = 2 damage

3 Damage (5 times) = 3 damage

4 Damage (7 times) = 4 damage

5 Damage (2 times) = 5 damage

5 Damage 1 surge (3 times) = 8 damage

5 Damage 2 surges = 8 damage

Thus, with the Red + Blue, the average damage of an attack with the minion is ~4.39, if you want to always do max damage and not knockback. If your priority is knockback and damage matters less to you, the damage drops to ~3.30.

Okay, Yellow + Blue:

Miss (6 times) = 0 damage

2 damage 1 surge (6 times) = 5 damage

1 damage 2 surges = 4 damage

2 damage 2 surges (2 times) = 5 damage

3 damage 1 surge (5 times) = 6 damage

3 damage 2 surges (2 times) = 6 damage

2 damage (2 times) = 2 damage

1 damage 1 surge = 4 damage

3 damage (5 times) = 3 damage

4 damage (2 times) = 4 damage

4 damage 1 surge (3 times) = 7 damage

4 damage 2 surges = 7 damage

Thus, with the Yellow + Blue, the average damage of an attack with the minion is ~4.03, a .37 damage loss on average. If your priority is to knockback, the damage drops to ~2.78, a .52 damage loss on average. The change from a red to a yellow die on the minion is a DPS loss and a nerf. It is, however, a buff in situations in which making sure you succeed at a knockback is a priority. The odds of getting at least one surge on the blue + yellow combination is around 58.3%, whereas it's around 41.7% on the blue + red combination.

Nice to see more non-human heroes. Have there ever been heroes with a two or four square base? Like a hero giant?

Nice to see more non-human heroes. Have there ever been heroes with a two or four square base? Like a hero giant?

Not as far as I know.

Sadly the ogre has only 1 grey dice

At least in the conversion it was the same way. It still ranks among the higher tie monsters acording to polls around. Its forte is in encounters with pits and lava.

Its red die for the minion was changed to a yellow, but this now triggers the surge +3 damage more ofted. More reliable damage, though I'm not doing the math.

The new Fleshmonger ability, yeah, it appears to be of lower utility/durability. I guess its more fun/gamey while solving the awkwardness of ordering for a mini that might not available in a 4p game.

The Ogre and Manticore (how cool does ranged Ravage sound?) were my two most awaited monsters .

The heroes always take me by surprise, even with my analyses of popularity/variety-apportation. Lyssa, my dear, I'll see you one day.

As an overlord, Ispher's bump startled me! Hard to take down or annoy indeed. As a cleric, I wish it had a battle hammer instead of a blade.

The ogres always were one of my favourite act I monsters. Their ability to wether dish out a lot of damage (surge+3) or applying knockback to heroes along with a very nice HP pool (undying) and normal defense (grey dice) rounded them out nicely. The undying ability traded you the slightly tankier, but overall imo worse master into a minion that is slightly weaker but has more reliable surges.

The act II ogres nearly always were trash imo. With blue+red on the minion they completely lost their reliable knockback and even their damage wasn't that great for act II, paired with subpar defense. Undying changed the somewhat good master into the kind of worthless minion. Now the minion isn't so worthless anymore, but undying is gone.

That's not to say there is absolutely no upside to "fleshmonger" at least for act II. If you managed to actually gain the HP, you could keep your unarguable more powerfull master longer (although that kind of hurts his act I usability).

To me this odd monster only got stranger. I mean the minion upgrade for act II consists of only adding 3 HP to the monster, nothing else. Don't even start comparing them to the act II Ynfernal hulks that also got knockback.

Do you guys think the act I version will be downgraded as well to make the act II ogres feel like an actual upgrade (and thus make the monsters kind of forgetable)?

A real mixed bag. Cheers for the new art for Ispher and a non-human hero for once.

But Validir? Seriously? We really needed ANOTHER generic male human warrior????

No doubt Ogre goes from really good creature to really bad one.

Before, even with a grey die, the master still could make lost multiples actions to heroes : 1 or 2 attacks to kill one, maybe more, and same again for the "new" one. And thanks of the undying skill, there was often 1 more minion that should be.

Fleshmonger will only add a little extra life IF it could survive 4 turns, And I don't think it ever will be able to.

I don't think I will ever use Ogre on any of my games, sadly

Act 1 ogres may not be much weaker- if you look at ettins, their surges were actually weakened for act 2- though health and defense increased.

I also wonder if ogres will have some particular synergy with trolls, based on the description.

Very cool! One of my boyfriend's fave heroes is Ispher, so I'm happy he gets that. I was hoping for Nagas, but three big monster groups is pretty great. The troll mini will be a good substitute for Bol'Goreth, since I don't plan on getting his LP.

Act 1 ogres may not be much weaker- if you look at ettins, their surges were actually weakened for act 2- though health and defense increased.

I also wonder if ogres will have some particular synergy with trolls, based on the description.

Definitly a possibility based on the description, but I think it would be pointless, as there are only very few quests were you get 2 open groups that are placed at the same time near each other.

I just really don't see how that big change is justified especially when comparing them to Ynferneal Hulks, who are so much better than ogres now. So should I stop using Ynferneal Hulks, because compared to Ogres they are clearly imbalanced?

So... there goes a viable monster. Before this was announced I thought I would totally get the H&M pack when it contains the ogres, now I don't see the point (besides I really don't like the new ogre miniatures better than the old ones). Merriods are awesome don't get me wrong, but they are so situational (just like the new ogres) that I feel very little need in getting them.

Moreover I feel kind of bad for all the quests I won when using Ogres.

I wouldn't outright declare Ogre's non-viable, they might in act 1 be stronger than some other options, and the knockback on surge is potentially useful. There may also be times where Ynfernael Hulks aren't an allowed group but Ogres are.

I wouldn't outright declare Ogre's non-viable, they might in act 1 be stronger than some other options, and the knockback on surge is potentially useful. There may also be times where Ynfernael Hulks aren't an allowed group but Ogres are.

Yeah that's true, although we haven't seen the act I version yet, ogres will probably remain a solid act I pick just for the knockback. However they could end up being one of the most fragile big melee monsters and without undying their surges won't even proc as reliable as before. Of course that would change if they get blue and green for the minion and blue and yellow for the master in act I, but I don't see that comming.

Woah, Ispher looks sweeeet! Finally some good character art after a bit of a drought.

I really appreciate the buff to him too. He still doesn't hold a candle to powerhouse healers like Andira and Elder Mok, but he is now usable. In his current incarnation I think he'd excel as an Apothecary especially.

I'll pick this one up for all the nice looking minis alone. The fact that Nara the Fang is being reprinted is just icing on the cake.

I don't like what they've done to the Ogres at all. Undying is so much better than Fleshmonger, as Ogres are fragile monsters that rarely live more than a single turn. They should have given them Black defense dice at least if they wanted them to be viable. As is, I can't see why you'd ever want one over an Ynferneal Hulk or Ettin, especially in Act II.

Thankfully, there is nothing stopping me from using the sweet new Mini and the old Conversion Kit Ogre card.

it's good to see non human heroes are back. curious to see the others now

bnow the scound post today that prases the Ynfernal hulk, what is it you guys see in it my group dont?

it isnt the best monster ever- but its being referenced as clearly better than the ogres

So glad that this series continues,great collection.Now only Demon Lord,Ice Wyrm,Naga and Blood Ape to close my monster wish list .

My wish list includes hellhounds- I'm trying to get all of the "Runewars" units in D2E. Also, there aren't that many 2x1 monsters so far.

I want them all and I want new monsters, like werewolves