Ok, my players have recently started heavily upgrading gear with attachments and mods, so this has led me back to re-reading the rules on how this all works. I get that attachments are simply installed as they are effectively modular, however some of the descriptions imply that the work is carried out by skilled mechanics, such as the superior attachment.

So my first question is - who installs the attachment in this case? Is it the player or does the cost include installation?

If the cost does include installation would the price be reduced if the player just bought/scavenged the parts, and would this then necessitate a mechanics roll?

2nd question - can ship attachments only be installed in a fully kitted out repair bay, as the descriptions also imply that they take a lot of effort to install because of the delicate systems? Or can they be installed on the fly?

3rd question - the book implies that attachments and mods only take a few minutes to install, for both character and ship scale attachments. With the amount of work involved in some attachments, does this seem right? I was thinking of introducing is simple house rule for mods and attachments, it is based on the SAGA rules -

For character scales attachments the time to install attachments is based on the number of HP needed, 0 HP takes 10 minutes, 1 HP takes 1 hour, 2 or more HP takes 8 hours. Mods take 1hour per difficulty dice. So the first mod takes 3 hours.

For starship attachments the time is (1 day + 1 day per HP), x 2 for a transport or fighter, x 5 for capital ship. And mods take 1 day per difficulty dice.

This makes the chance to reduce the time to instal mods actually worthwhile.

Thoughts?

Attachments are installed automatically as you buy them, but feel free to make it take some time, Like a Superior attachment will take a whole day for the shopkeeper, but a marksman barrel is a 10 min job.

Mods are made by a skilled mechanic, and can be partly made from scavenged parts (There is a talent to reduce cost), but needs a mechanics roll. If nobody in the group have the skill to a sufficient level, make them hunt for a NPC and pay him extra.

1) Most the time when a mechanics check is called for it can be done by the players for free. Seeing how the only thing that calls for a mechanic check is filed front sight. Superior weapon implies that you're not buying an attachment so much as ordering a high quality, custom made weapon.

2) Seems as long as you can get it on board you can install it on the fly. However, this would be silly for things like Enhanced Carbon-Durasteel Armor. And I wouldn't even want to attempt to do certain attachments on the fly like High-Output Ion Turbine, or Reinforced Shield Generator since you'd probably have to bring the systems offline first.

3) The book has a footnote, one that should be a little bit more obvious, that says ship attachments take ten times as long (they say cost, but I assume they mean cost in time). So you're going from a few minutes to about half an hour to an hour. But in general it's something you want to do when you have downtime opposed to something you want to try to do between encounters.

You're little system has flaws. The bulk of the attachments are just that, attachments. They're meant to be quickly installed without fuss or mess. Most gear, especially in a future fantasy, is only going to be held together by a couple of screws and bolts (hell, gear today is just as easy to take apart just look at your cellphone). Your character scale time table is better for ship sized attachments; though you could reason that enhanced armor would take up to a day since you're laying it down, bolting/welding it to the ship, checking for integrity, etc. Ship scale isn't that relevant, larger the ship the larger the installation crew. So while it may take five times the time to install something to a capital ship you also have five time the people working on it.

I don't have the book in front of me, but im pretty sure attaching a piece to a weapon takes a few minutes, unless superior. In which case me and my group house ruled that buying a "superior" attachment meant that either a skilled shop owner, or weapon Smith took the time with the player to have then shoot the gun, holster it, hold it, aim it, defend in melee with it, swing it around, run, jump, whatever with it.

And based on that person's quirks and such, the mechanics check made it as something that's more "custom fit" than "superior". With similar stuff with armor and whatnot.

Although, we kind of also do some custom attachments. (Bayonets, anyone?) That can be removed or attached with a maneuver.

For vehicle mods, we ruled they take ten times the length of time it takes to mod an attachment. So adding a new vehicle attachment could take two hours, or twenty. Depending on common sense.

… gear today is just as easy to take apart just look at your cellphone).

That’s not a good example. Most cellphones these days are largely held together with glue, not screws. Most devices these days are not meant to be easily repaired and/or upgraded in the field — the companies want you to buy new ones, instead of repairing the old ones.

There are some companies that produce devices that are more easily repaired or upgraded in the field, but they are the exception. And they’re not as thin, light, or shiny as the less-repairable gear.

So my first question is - who installs the attachment in this case? Is it the player or does the cost include installation?

IMO, the price either includes the installation, or the cost/time to install is pretty trivial.

You can go down to a gun store today and buy a scope that you can attach to your rifle, and it will only take a few minutes and a few turns of the screw to do so. Sighting that scope in and getting practice with it, that’s a different matter.

If the cost does include installation would the price be reduced if the player just bought/scavenged the parts, and would this then necessitate a mechanics roll?

There are talents to cover that part.

If the installation is non-trivial and to be done by the PCs, then that’s where the Mechanics skill comes into play.

2nd question - can ship attachments only be installed in a fully kitted out repair bay, as the descriptions also imply that they take a lot of effort to install because of the delicate systems? Or can they be installed on the fly?

For me, that is more of a situational matter. Some might be quickly and easily installed in the field, perhaps even easily done under fire. But others might be very delicate and require a fully kitted-out repair/upgrade facility.

IMO, this is a “use your judgement” type of issue.

3rd question - the book implies that attachments and mods only take a few minutes to install, for both character and ship scale attachments. With the amount of work involved in some attachments, does this seem right?

Again, this is situational.

As to how you handle that situation in your game, I’d say that you’ve got the flexibility to discuss that with your players and then decide how you think it should work.

Thanks for the feedback guys, especially bradknowles for helping me to move my thinking forward a bit. I have always thought of Star Wars tech as being derivative of the 70s, so although things are slapped together, they are chunky and meant to last.

Looking through the list of attachments I think the ones that would need to be fitted by an expert with a full set of tools/machine shop or service bay are as follows;

Weapons - Mono-molecular edge, Serrated edge, Superior weapon (superior is interesting in that you can add it to a weapon after purchase, so it is almost like pimping it out but it can also keep any attachments already in place if you have enough hp)

Armour - All (superior armour customisation is done by retooling the complete suit, there is no way that my wookiee player will ever let anyone else touch his laminate armour)

Starships - All ( I would say that all of the listed ship attachments either need a full repair bay or an expert to install. Changing an engine, adding an ion turbine would need specialist equipment and a qualified ship mechanic, whereas the targeting array and countermeasures might need a skilled ship security expert and technician for the installation)

If it is the case that the price of these includes installation then I need to work up a way for the player to install themselves, if they have the right tools or a service bay etc. For my players it is important that they stay below the radar, so hiring someone to do the work could lead to unnecessary risks. I was going to propose reducing the price of the item by 25% but introduce a difficulty based on the number of hp required and the type of equipment they have available, I was also thinking of using passive checks if the players had ample time to make the installations.

The main reason for my quick and dirty system is to help with the narrative and to put a little pressure on the group to pick what they want to install during their brief downtime (or hyperspace time) as they are continually bouncing from one situation to the next but also want to improve their gear. Putting their ship in the shop is not going to happen as they are paranoid about what people will do if it is out of their sight for more than 5 minutes. But I don't want to make things too easy for them, otherwise I would lose my reputation as an evil GM.

Looking through the list of attachments I think the ones that would need to be fitted by an expert with a full set of tools/machine shop or service bay are as follows;

Weapons - Mono-molecular edge, Serrated edge, Superior weapon (superior is interesting in that you can add it to a weapon after purchase, so it is almost like pimping it out but it can also keep any attachments already in place if you have enough hp)

Armour - All (superior armour customisation is done by retooling the complete suit, there is no way that my wookiee player will ever let anyone else touch his laminate armour)

And now I get to say something that I don't get to say very often....

I think you're underthinking it.

Go back and look at the charts outlining the cost of the attachments and note (just like everything else) there's a rarity. This isn't just the cost of a generic kit you get from TaggeMart, with that rarity, it's also easy to assume it's the difficulty of finding an attachment that's compatible with the item you are looking to improve. So in the case of stuff like the Superior upgrades, it's not a matter of finding a kit that will work on all weapons, be they bows, blasters, or blunderbusses. It's the difficulty of finding superior components for a BlasTech DL-44 like the one your character actually has. Once you have that sorted, replacing the stock components for those aftermarket improved ones it's really not all that complicated.

Even things like the monomolecular or serrated edge is more of a "blade replacement" then an actual retooling of the weapon. In the Star Wars universe where metal working is pretty common and simple, finding a shop that'll make you what you need is the only hard part, and isn't all that hard really..

Starships - All ( I would say that all of the listed ship attachments either need a full repair bay or an expert to install. Changing an engine, adding an ion turbine would need specialist equipment and a qualified ship mechanic, whereas the targeting array and countermeasures might need a skilled ship security expert and technician for the installation)

Why? Is Installing aftermarket kits on cars all that difficult? Again, check the rarity. Some items are harder to find then others, not just in general, but compatible. Adding an ECM suite doesn't have to be any harder then mounting the kit on an external expansion bracket, running the control cables to the main switch, and installing the control software onto the subsystems control computer. If you need an extra switch or control panel added to the cockpit that's really nothing hard. On the other hand finding one that'll run on the 47.9 Volt system of a HT-200 freighter AND have the HT-200 profiles in it's configuration package.... that might be hard.

Even installing a smuggling compartment need not be hard. mostly you're just patching over existing pockets within the ship. Some plating cut to the right size and shape is really all you need to get started. It's the buying of sensor resistant materials in the quantity required to do so that'll get you in trouble.

The main reason for my quick and dirty system is to help with the narrative and to put a little pressure on the group to pick what they want to install during their brief downtime (or hyperspace time) as they are continually bouncing from one situation to the next but also want to improve their gear. Putting their ship in the shop is not going to happen as they are paranoid about what people will do if it is out of their sight for more than 5 minutes. But I don't want to make things too easy for them, otherwise I would lose my reputation as an evil GM.

Would it nbot make just as much sense to adjust the rarity difficulty for a "rush order"? After all this would be a good thing to spend a Dpoint on to upgrade the difficulty. If the players are always being pursued, a Despair could easily trigger the enemy they are so carefully avoiding being tipped off.

You mention Saga edition earlier. Coming from a D20 system that one had a lot of over concern with the mundane. Like D&D thinking too much about rolling for this and that, and not enough time about how to move the story foward (indeed, one of 4e's failures was the essential elimination of story, often expecting it to be minimized to a couple rolls and then reverting back to another dungeon crawl). That was just how the Devs thought a game should run. If you're players agree, then by all means, do it. But I think you've got an opportunity to do something different, maybe you should at least try it out a little.

Thanks for prompting me to reread the descriptions of the mono and serrated edges, it makes perfect sense for the mono to be a replacement blade and the serrated can apparently be done by anyone, so that takes those two off my list. I am still not sure about superior as it is all about making the weapon being made the perfect fit for the owner, this can't be done with a few new parts but needs to take into account what rzrfrictionless mentions above. And this appears to need someone to do the tinkering for the character, why can't the player just do this for themselves?

I wouldn't compare replacing a hyperdrive engine, adding an ion turbine or increasing hull plating to adding an aftermarket kit to a car, the size difference alone means it will take a lot more work. Don't get me started on how difficult it could be to adding new electrical systems to a freighter that is the size of a house.

I would also say that in all honesty I would be hopeless about adding any 'new' systems to my car, I could replace most minor systems with a bit of research but adding a nitro system or a built in coolest system, not likely. I would probably ask one of my friends that is a good mechanic to buy the parts and allow me to help him to fit them.

Which brings me back to a cost difference between buying a part and needing he shop to fit it and buying the part and fitting it yourself, the rarity of the actual part only covers finding and paying for it not having it installed by a skilled tech. A 'rush order' makes sense if you need a part quickly but still doesn't overcome the problem of needing the players to take the time to fit it, have you ever tried replacing a car engine without the right equipment, it ain't going to happen.

Anyway, I won't implement anything until talking to my players as we will need to reach an agreement for is sort of thing. I agree that it should come down to common sense and what is good for the narrative but it would be nice to have a bit of guidance on how long things actually take to install, and how difficult things are to attach, sorry but I don't buy that it is all plug and play (excepting things that should be relatively interchangeable like barrels and grips and blades etc). The armour and ship attachments are causing me the most headache as for me they are too complicated to instal without some level of relevant skill.

This is why I went back to look at the saga rules for this. I had played every iteration of Star Wars roleplaying since he original D6 version in 1987, through to D20 RCR and then moved on to saga, we then went back to RCR as I hated saga with a passion. For me the only good thing to come out of saga was the relatively straight forward modification rules, they give a time for installation and a comparable difficulty, which is exactly what I was looking for. Funnily enough the saga rules assume that each part is installed by a player, so I had to ask on the forums how much does it cost to get someone else to do the work for you, which is the reverse of what I am trying to sort out with EotE.

Short answer: The system doesn't work the old way, and that's good.

Long:

D20 based games have lots of fiddly rolling and details like this because it needs them. Classes, levels, and feats have such a huge impact on what a character can do that without stuff requiring this or that will remove the need for one of the core game design concepts: Party Composition. Remember that as a D&D derivative, D20 and Saga were pulled from a system that expected a Priest, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue (or equivalent there of) in every party. While these roles changed slightly in the conversion to Star Wars, the expectation was still kinda there. You still got bonuses for the actual USE of trained skills vs untrained (if you could do it at all).

D6 didn't have this issue, because it didn't restrict or give bonuses to skills based on character class. Still it was expected to do all this stuff because other systems did it, so they included it in the form of replacing components for better ones.

FFG noticed an issue with this though. If your group didn't have a mechanic, upgrades would be a pain. So they implemented the difference between attachments and mods. Instead of improving ships and gear by completely rebuiilding them, they instead used the real world concept of the aftermarket to allow anyone with the credits to by basic kits. Assuming that all characters have a basic level of proficiency (something else both D20 and D6 DIDN'T do), just like real attachment, you'd at most need a little time and the ability to follow IKEA instructions. Instead of upgrading your engine by replacing it, you upgrade it by adding something the size of an oven, and roughly as easy to install, that makes the existing engine better. Now, if you want to take it farther, then you need skills. This allows a group without an enchanter to still get magic swords if they need them.

I can get into additional bits and pieces about how weapons are intentionally built to be maintained by minimally educated persons in poor conditions, or how high performance vehicle exist today that can be worked on with only 8 basic tools that are actually carried in an on-board tool kit (though a full tool kit still helps) or the cultural requirement for robust easy to use and tinker on equipment in a large space faring society like star wars vs. the disposable tech of modern earth if you need the fluff angle explained.

But from a basic crunch perspective that's the big difference.

Old games added rolling because it was expected and/or required. FFG ditched it because for most people, after all was said and done, it just didn't really contribute to the game.

It's not the first time this has happened. Compare it to something like Mass Effect. The first game had big long skills lists and painful inventory management because it was expected. When they went to work on the sequel it was realized that cutting off that fat allowed more focus on the action and story, so away it went.

I do appreciate the work that FFG have put in to making an awesome RPG system, this isn't the issue. The issue for me is that when a player wants to install something like the Hydraulic control circuits, that fully replaces a current system with something that is 'bulky, archaic, and difficult to work with', and asks how long would this take to install and is it just plug and play?

My immediate answer is um? Reading the description I would say it takes quite a while and needs someone with knowledge of this type of system and some skill at installing it, and the relevant equipment. This is my common sense approach.

Or how about Enhanced carbon-durasteel armour, that is 'molecularly bonded to a ship's hull, how long would that take and can it be done by any idiot or does it need someone with skill and ample time. Common sense says it will take time and some skill. The RAW says differently.

I don't implement house rules lightly and only if it is something that I feel isn't adequately covered in the rules. My players have started down the road of modding their gear and ship and I feel that I need a simple set of principals that allow me to easily make consistent judgement calls when asked the above questions. So when a player asks "does the price include cost of installation?", and I say it does (or in the case of many weapon mods, no but it is easy to install), I want to be ready for the follow-up question of - "could I save some cash by installing the system myself, how hard would it be?" The current rules seem to make an assumption that complex attachments are still easy to install for someone with no skill and only ever take a few minutes, I need a little more crunch to add to the groups narrative. I would prefer to be able to answer things with, "yes, you can buy the parts over the holonet, they will take a week to get to you, you can save 25% on the cost because you are installing it yourself but it will take 4 days and an average difficulty to have it all fitted and tested. Or you can put the ship in the shop for 2 days and have the part installed as part of the sale".

If the current RAW is enough for you, that's great but I need a little help to make sure that I don't have to make everything up as I go along, hence my quick and dirty system.

lupex — I understand your goal here, and I applaud your efforts to get a better answer to this question. I just wish I could help provide such a better answer.

Just as an eyeballing.

Personal scale stuff is fairly much included in the price of your modifications, including the tools, couple of specialist widgets and bits to get the job done in their cabin or ships workshop. That effectively means the modification on someone's axe or blaster, supports that for however long it lasts with the maintenance gear included in the price- sharpeners, files, soldering irons, refil cannisters, spare circuits, cleaning rods and so on.

I wouldn't really consider the specialist tools transferrable or have any other game effect.

Probably takes an hour or 3 at most to get them done, depending on what's being done.

Ships and Vehicles

The Sil 1-4 ships and vehicles, mods to them I would ballpark in the 1 day per Amount of Silhouette per modification- in a Repair Bay, with everyone in the group chipping in to help running the heavy lift gear, diagnostics, welders, cutting torches, running cables and for the more useless idiots- getting lunch and sent off looking for left handed hydrospanners.

So you're putting armour on a Sil4 ship, that will take the group 4 days, maybe with a final mechanics check to use advantage to buy off a couple of hours and get it done quicker.

Sil 5+ ships and vehicles are a different animal again, they are major construction in of themselves.

So for the mods, I'm more than happy to add a multiplier to the Cost x the Silhouette. After all, a hyperdrive for a Nebulon B, isn't going to be 7000creds of pocket money for some speedy bits, its probably closer to 40-50,000credits!

The time taken is roughly One Week + a number of days x its Silhouette rating- assuming they have not just a repair facility, but a Slipyard to berth it in.

Likewise, roll in the cost with the modification and time spent to aquire it, in with the rental of a slipyard, hiring gronk droids, cranes etc.

You can either stick to a mechanics roll at the end, using advantage to bring it in a day or 2 quicker, or perhaps even a Leadership test to coordinate the small army of worker monkeys, droids and so on to reduce the time taken. Ever thought that Speaks Binary talent was mostly useless? Maybe it isn't when you've got 50 droids running around working on a big ship!